Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Granny15 · 19-12-2019 12:34pm

I see Franno is touting a total clearout of the old wood and in with the new in todays article. He touts Kelleher starting and excelling, Frawley becoming an 80 Cap test player and Ryan Baird instead of Kleyne and Roux who he says add bulk but are in essence lazy players whose stats aren't up to scratch for international rugby.

He congratulates Gatland for being good at unearthing youngsters and giving a chance to talented young players

I think he might have a point on all 3 comments. I think Kelleher if fit should start in one of the first 2 matches possibly Scotland. I back him to do well if he can do the basics right then he might even do better as he adds physicality to the pack in the loose.

Frawley is one I have to agree with and say I'm suyrprised he hasn't been given more game time this season. Competition trumps rewarding players and having 2 fly halves going at it when Sexton is away is the way to get the best out of the players. I think if he's given a shot which won't be this 6 Nations Burns, JJ and Carty are ahead of him, he could be the answer.

Baird is a long shot and won't happen this year or next year possibly but hopefully lives up to the plaudits and comes good in the second row perhaps even for Ireland if not Leinster in the next 3-4 years.

Dubinusa · 19-12-2019 3:35pm

2nd row will be tough to call soon. The level of the kiddies is insane and fairly soon they will be pressuring established players. Right now Henderson and Ryan are in pole position. Behind them are a few lads that offer different strengths. Dillane. Beirne, Roux and Kleyn.
Over the next couple of seasons I think Baird will be in the mix. Beyond that within 4 years. I think we will see Dunne. Murray and Charlie Ryan surpassing the old timers.
Right now I think the order would be
Ryan
Henderson
Dillane
Roux
Beirne
Kleyn
Thornbury
Treadwell.

Coming soon
Baird
Murray
Dunne
Ryan
Ahern.

I didn't include Toner because age works against him. Obviously, he will be involved over the next year at least.
But, with all these young fellas coming through and all with really good talent I believe the pecking order will change drastically.
I would include Gallagher also, but for his injury profile.
Similiar scenario for the back row. The new lads are showing some serious mettle.
Hodnett
J.O.S
Penny
McCann
All of these lads will be serious operators fairly soon.

aloooof · 19-12-2019 4:04pm

Wycherly is another who could be in the mix for the 2nd row as well. He's had some good amount of game time already this season, but with Beirne injured now, he'll add to that even more.

Shefwedfan · 19-12-2019 4:27pm

Maloney is only 25 and has been impressive so far this season. Most second rows only come good after 25 so I wouldnt be ruling him out yet.....

For a position a few years back we had no options we now have plenty of decent ones

I think Wycherly will also be in the mix as mentioned

I do think Beirne might end up back playing at 6,

theVersatile · 19-12-2019 4:58pm

Granny15 wrote: »

I see Franno is touting a total clearout of the old wood and in with the new in todays article. He touts Kelleher starting and excelling, Frawley becoming an 80 Cap test player and Ryan Baird instead of Kleyne and Roux who he says add bulk but are in essence lazy players whose stats aren't up to scratch for international rugby.

He congratulates Gatland for being good at unearthing youngsters and giving a chance to talented young players

I think he might have a point on all 3 comments. I think Kelleher if fit should start in one of the first 2 matches possibly Scotland. I back him to do well if he can do the basics right then he might even do better as he adds physicality to the pack in the loose.

Frawley is one I have to agree with and say I'm suyrprised he hasn't been given more game time this season. Competition trumps rewarding players and having 2 fly halves going at it when Sexton is away is the way to get the best out of the players. I think if he's given a shot which won't be this 6 Nations Burns, JJ and Carty are ahead of him, he could be the answer.

Baird is a long shot and won't happen this year or next year possibly but hopefully lives up to the plaudits and comes good in the second row perhaps even for Ireland if not Leinster in the next 3-4 years.

I get where he's coming from in trying to take the "young player revolution" standpoint - but the last two points are crazy. Kelleher starting fair enough we've heard plenty of calls for that (still think it's too early personally) - Frawley is doing well but if he can't even fight beyond Ross Byrne at Leinster, how will he challenge the likes of Carbery/JJ, Burns, Carty/Fitzgerald, and of course Johnny Sexton. I can't see him breaking that mold to become anything more than a backup option at international level, especially with those like Healy and Byrne Jr coming from behind.

The bit about Roux and Kleyn is ludicrous. Lazy? Low stats? Didn't Roux hit 40 rucks in a 6N match last year? And throw in Baird of all people? So many options ahead of him - Kieren Treadwell, christ I'd throw Billy Holland ahead of him and he probably won't ever wear an Irish jersey again. There's more chance of Donnacha Ryan being called in from Paris.

He's trying to say the right things which are popular among the rugby community (out with the SAfricans, start Kelleher, trust youth, play Leinster) but it just isn't realistic

salmocab · 19-12-2019 5:34pm

theVersatile wrote: »

I get where he's coming from in trying to take the "young player revolution" standpoint - but the last two points are crazy. Kelleher starting fair enough we've heard plenty of calls for that (still think it's too early personally) - Frawley is doing well but if he can't even fight beyond Ross Byrne at Leinster, how will he challenge the likes of Carbery/JJ, Burns, Carty/Fitzgerald, and of course Johnny Sexton. I can't see him breaking that mold to become anything more than a backup option at international level, especially with those like Healy and Byrne Jr coming from behind.

The bit about Roux and Kleyn is ludicrous. Lazy? Low stats? Didn't Roux hit 40 rucks in a 6N match last year? And throw in Baird of all people? So many options ahead of him - Kieren Treadwell, christ I'd throw Billy Holland ahead of him and he probably won't ever wear an Irish jersey again. There's more chance of Donnacha Ryan being called in from Paris.

He's trying to say the right things which are popular among the rugby community (out with the SAfricans, start Kelleher, trust youth, play Leinster) but it just isn't realistic

It’s Neil Francis you don’t need to read it to know it’ll be nonsense. He spouts whatever comes to him. He doesn’t even believe it himself.

dub_skav · 19-12-2019 5:46pm

To be fair, I'd trust Franno to be able to spot a lazy second row

Dubinusa · 19-12-2019 5:49pm

aloooof wrote: »

Wycherly is another who could be in the mix for the 2nd row as well. He's had some good amount of game time already this season, but with Beirne injured now, he'll add to that even more.

He's very good! But he's small for the 2nd row. I reckon he could be a superb 6. I do think he's going to be capped, but I don't think he's going to be a regular.

Dubinusa · 19-12-2019 5:52pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Maloney is only 25 and has been impressive so far this season. Most second rows only come good after 25 so I wouldnt be ruling him out yet.....

For a position a few years back we had no options we now have plenty of decent ones

I think Wycherly will also be in the mix as mentioned

I do think Beirne might end up back playing at 6,

Molony is a good player and I did forget him. Not sure if he is going to reach the standard required! He's 4th in the pecking order at Leinster, he has to get into the 1st team squad! But then, so do the young nippers!

aloooof · 19-12-2019 5:58pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

He's very good! But he's small for the 2nd row. I reckon he could be a superb 6. I do think he's going to be capped, but I don't think he's going to be a regular.

I think it was during the Cheetahs game game where the SA commentator kept calling him the tallest man on the pitch. When he clearly wasn't.

stephen_n · 19-12-2019 6:24pm

IRFU confirm they have no interest in acquiring the FAI’s half of the Aviva.

joseywhales · 19-12-2019 6:35pm

Whatever happens they'll still want a partner they can work with in the lease, that's still a risk, this fai shambles isn't good for anyone.

Bazzo · 19-12-2019 6:37pm

Disclaimer: I haven't actually read it because I don't like to indulge Francis.

If he's actually accused Roux and Kleyn of being lazy that might be one of the funniest and most bat**** things he's ever said, and I'm aware that's a bold claim.

joseywhales · 19-12-2019 6:40pm

Bazzo wrote: »

Disclaimer: I haven't actually read it because I don't like to indulge Francis.

If he's actually accused Roux and Kleyn of being lazy that might be one of the funniest and most bat**** things he's ever said, and I'm aware that's a bold claim.

The man literally played with a paunch and he was very tall!

stephen_n · 19-12-2019 6:40pm

Bazzo wrote: »

Disclaimer: I haven't actually read it because I don't like to indulge Francis.

If he's actually accused Roux and Kleyn of being lazy that might be one of the funniest and most bat**** things he's ever said, and I'm aware that's a bold claim.

I haven’t read it either but I’m sure it’s more nuanced than that. I’m assuming lazy foreigners.

swiwi_ · 19-12-2019 7:36pm

Neil Francis: 'It's time to clear dead wood ahead of Six Nations'

And with that, Ireland's preeminent rugby journalist announced his retirement.

Granny15 · 19-12-2019 7:58pm

theVersatile wrote: »

I get where he's coming from in trying to take the "young player revolution" standpoint - but the last two points are crazy. Kelleher starting fair enough we've heard plenty of calls for that (still think it's too early personally) - Frawley is doing well but if he can't even fight beyond Ross Byrne at Leinster, how will he challenge the likes of Carbery/JJ, Burns, Carty/Fitzgerald, and of course Johnny Sexton. I can't see him breaking that mold to become anything more than a backup option at international level, especially with those like Healy and Byrne Jr coming from behind.

The bit about Roux and Kleyn is ludicrous. Lazy? Low stats? Didn't Roux hit 40 rucks in a 6N match last year? And throw in Baird of all people? So many options ahead of him - Kieren Treadwell, christ I'd throw Billy Holland ahead of him and he probably won't ever wear an Irish jersey again. There's more chance of Donnacha Ryan being called in from Paris.

He's trying to say the right things which are popular among the rugby community (out with the SAfricans, start Kelleher, trust youth, play Leinster) but it just isn't realistic

Here’s exactly what he said:

“I watched the Munster v Saracens game at the Allianz and Kleyn did have his moments - a couple of big hits - but he made 11 tackles all day and was then substituted. His unheralded second-row partner Billy Holland made 21 tackles and then the international standard was set by George Kruis who made 25 tackles, carried the ball all day long, cleared twice as many rucks as Kleyn and the difference between the two in terms of quality and work-rate was just embarrassing.

The only people who made fewer tackles in either pack were Billy Vunipola, who practically won the game for Saracens (9), and Jamie George (8), who probably took a break in the middle of the game to scoff some jelly doughnuts. Eleven tackles!

Neither South African is good enough to play international rugby and they are taking up space in the squad.”

He didn’t say lazy but basically did. I think they are vital to Ireland’s second row over the next 2/3 seasons but I also think Holland is a die hard and would castrate himself if it meant Ireland/Munster won a match. I also think Wycherley is one for the future and I don’t buy into the fact he’s too small. He looked big enough to me but it will come down to how committed a player he turns out to be.

I think Farrell would be wise to take some risk on young players who he wants to make the backbone of his team for the next 4 years with a view to a contract extension. If the risks come off he gets the verdict he’s a good coach committed to making changes where Joe wasn’t. In return those young players are committed to him and will play like they owe him. The older players play like their lives/places depended on it because they see the young coming through

Granny15 · 19-12-2019 8:18pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

2nd row will be tough to call soon. The level of the kiddies is insane and fairly soon they will be pressuring established players. Right now Henderson and Ryan are in pole position. Behind them are a few lads that offer different strengths. Dillane. Beirne, Roux and Kleyn.
Over the next couple of seasons I think Baird will be in the mix. Beyond that within 4 years. I think we will see Dunne. Murray and Charlie Ryan surpassing the old timers.
Right now I think the order would be
Ryan
Henderson
Dillane
Roux
Beirne
Kleyn
Thornbury
Treadwell.

Coming soon
Baird
Murray
Dunne
Ryan
Ahern.

I didn't include Toner because age works against him. Obviously, he will be involved over the next year at least.
But, with all these young fellas coming through and all with really good talent I believe the pecking order will change drastically.
I would include Gallagher also, but for his injury profile.
Similiar scenario for the back row. The new lads are showing some serious mettle.
Hodnett
J.O.S
Penny
McCann
All of these lads will be serious operators fairly soon.

I would also like to add that players who graduate from the academy but are middle tier selections and are blocking up and coming talent are cut from the squad. Inevitably players leave if they aren’t getting enough game time but we have seen young players hold onto their squad places in Leinster even if they’re not getting played. In future I would like to see players who are bit part players who have better prospects coming up the academy behind them are cut from the roster. I would like to see a ruthless streak in Cullen and Lancaster in this regard

Shefwedfan · 19-12-2019 9:03pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Molony is a good player and I did forget him. Not sure if he is going to reach the standard required! He's 4th in the pecking order at Leinster, he has to get into the 1st team squad! But then, so do the young nippers!

Many said the same of Toner around 2011 and I think he was 25, a season later and he was starter for Leinster, not sure about Ireland

Ryan is a freak, So is Atjoe.....most second rows only start at 25+ And peak in early 30, other positions are different

Will Maloney make the Irish team, hard to know. But he is mostly certainly an option, go back a few years and he would probably be in squad, the depth at second row now is impressive compared to years ago

aloooof · 19-12-2019 9:42pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Many said the same of Toner around 2011 and I think he was 25, a season later and he was starter for Leinster, not sure about Ireland

Ryan is a freak, So is Atjoe.....most second rows only start at 25+ And peak in early 30, other positions are different

Will Maloney make the Irish team, hard to know. But he is mostly certainly an option, go back a few years and he would probably be in squad, the depth at second row now is impressive compared to years ago

You’re gonna think I’m being contrarian again Shef, but I actually think second row is a position we’ve always had reasonably good depth. For example, go back to 2011 RWC and our 4 locks were O’Connell (31), O’Callaghan (32), Cullen (33) and Donnacha Ryan (27).

The age profile there means we were well stocked for the ~6+ years previously too. Imo you may have to go back over 15 years or more before you get to a squad where Molony, at his current level, would have been in contention.

He’s still young tho, and lock is probably the best position that you can play later into your career, but I’d imagine he’s odds against becoming a starter for Ireland.

Shefwedfan · 19-12-2019 11:07pm

aloooof wrote: »

You’re gonna think I’m being contrarian again Shef, but I actually think second row is a position we’ve always had reasonably good depth. For example, go back to 2011 RWC and our 4 locks were O’Connell (31), O’Callaghan (32), Cullen (33) and Donnacha Ryan (27).

The age profile there means we were well stocked for the ~6+ years previously too. Imo you may have to go back over 15 years or more before you get to a squad where Molony, at his current level, would have been in contention.

He’s still young tho, and lock is probably the best position that you can play later into your career, but I’d imagine he’s odds against becoming a starter for Ireland.

Back in early 2010's I remember Leinster advertising camps to try and get tall players to go in for trials.....I suppose it comes from that I would always say our depth was not great. Around that time the likes of Roux was brought in, another guy from Sharks who looked good but went home early.

Now again my memory could be going but I seem to remember it

But now we seem to be fairly stocked. Right across the provinces.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 20-12-2019 8:05am

aloooof wrote: »

You’re gonna think I’m being contrarian again Shef, but I actually think second row is a position we’ve always had reasonably good depth. For example, go back to 2011 RWC and our 4 locks were O’Connell (31), O’Callaghan (32), Cullen (33) and Donnacha Ryan (27).

The age profile there means we were well stocked for the ~6+ years previously too. Imo you may have to go back over 15 years or more before you get to a squad where Molony, at his current level, would have been in contention.

He’s still young tho, and lock is probably the best position that you can play later into your career, but I’d imagine he’s odds against becoming a starter for Ireland.

A lot of people refer to 2016 or 2017 and think lock generally isn't a position of depth for Ireland.

There was a changing of the guard, some retirements, Ryan had announced he was moving to France (and some younger players got a chance to develop in a green Jersey).

We moved on.

EachSmallChime · 20-12-2019 11:45am

stephen_n wrote: »

I haven’t read it either but I’m sure it’s more nuanced than that. I’m assuming lazy foreigners.

Not that it will keep Franno happy but Quinn Roux is a full Irish citizen as of 2019. https://www.the42.ie/quinn-roux-ireland-passport-citizen-4504685-Feb2019/

aloooof · 20-12-2019 12:03pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

A lot of people refer to 2016 or 2017 and think lock generally isn't a position of depth for Ireland.

There was a changing of the guard, some retirements, Ryan had announced he was moving to France (and some younger players got a chance to develop in a green Jersey).

We moved on.

The perception may have been coloured because a stalwart like O'Connell had retired in 2015, but I don't think we've had particularly poor depth there for quite awhile.

Even in 2016 we had Toner, Donnacha Ryan, Iain Henderson and an in-form Ultan Dillane, all of which I'd still rate ahead of Molony tbh. And since then James Ryan has emerged too.

Clegg · 22-12-2019 12:24am

Don't think this round of interpro fixtures will do much for improving the Ireland selection chances of many. Too many weakened sides out there. Although Dillane played well for Connacht . Carried very effectively. Hope to see him back in squads for the Six Nations.

There were lots of young players involved who got on well. Harry Byrne being the pick of the bunch I think. If he continues like he is he'll usurp his brother in the pecking order soon enough. Give it a season or two. He's shaping up to be Sextons long term successor at Leinster too.

Shefwedfan · 22-12-2019 9:16am

Clegg wrote: »

Don't think this round of interpro fixtures will do much for improving the Ireland selection chances of many. Too many weakened sides out there. Although Dillane played well for Connacht . Carried very effectively. Hope to see him back in squads for the Six Nations.

There were lots of young players involved who got on well. Harry Byrne being the pick of the bunch I think. If he continues like he is he'll usurp his brother in the pecking order soon enough. Give it a season or two. He's shaping up to be Sextons long term successor at Leinster too.

I don’t know Ross has really picked it up this season, maybe with his brother on his ass and knowing Secton is way out I just think Ross has taken a step up

Not getting picked for the WC might have been a bit of a kick as well....

Harry looks a quality player but let not discard Ross yet

Clegg · 22-12-2019 1:30pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don’t know Ross has really picked it up this season, maybe with his brother on his ass and knowing Secton is way out I just think Ross has taken a step up

Not getting picked for the WC might have been a bit of a kick as well....

Harry looks a quality player but let not discard Ross yet

Ross is a great player and I'm delighted we have him at Leinster. But his brother just looks to have that spark of off the cuff brilliance that the elder lacks. It's not a slight on him. I just think his brother will end up a better player.

Shefwedfan · 22-12-2019 1:58pm

Clegg wrote: »

Ross is a great player and I'm delighted we have him at Leinster. But his brother just looks to have that spark of off the cuff brilliance that the elder lacks. It's not a slight on him. I just think his brother will end up a better player.

Maybe, time will tell

stephen_n · 22-12-2019 7:43pm

Ross has a great brain but physically Harry seems to be much better equipped. There was a moment in the Northampton game when Henshaw tracked back to chase down their winger (I think) who broke clean through. Ross Byrne had been chasing him and looked like he was going backwards as Henshaw flew past him. Henshaw really isn’t that quick.

nerd69 · 22-12-2019 7:55pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Ross has a great brain but physically Harry seems to be much better equipped. There was a moment in the Northampton game when Henshaw tracked back to chase down their winger (I think) who broke clean through. Ross Byrne had been chasing him and looked like he was going backwards as Henshaw flew past him. Henshaw really isn’t that quick.

Ya saw a video a whole back where they asked two of the the team.who was the slowest player and they both said Ross by a long shot. I think it's the only thing that would likely hold him back internationaly

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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