Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Syrian refugee student wins state scholarship

Options
1…1415161719

Comments

  • Options
    #542
    McHardcore
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭McHardcore


    paleoperson wrote: »
    I know it wasn't, but I think it should have been. They've no right to give it away to foreigners who are only here due to exceptional circumstances.

    Now you are just being prejudiced.


  • Options
    #543
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    McHardcore wrote: »
    Now you are just being prejudiced.

    Giving people their rights is being prejudiced?


  • Options
    #544
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,864 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    paleoperson wrote: »
    Giving people their rights is being prejudiced?

    What right aren’t people being given?


  • Options
    #545
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    Overheal wrote: »
    What right aren’t people being given?

    The right to the resources and assets of their country?

    Gifting it to foreigners is all well and good for people who think they're virtuous by doing so. But it belongs to the people of Ireland.


  • Options
    #546
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,864 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    paleoperson wrote: »
    The right to the resources and assets of their country?

    Where is this right enumerated?

    Uranium is a resource and asset of the United States do I have the right to my own demanded share of uranium?

    Talking out your bumbum, no ones rights were violated.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #547
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    I'm not familiar with the word enumerate used in this context, can you clarify what you're asking?


  • Options
    #548
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,864 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    paleoperson wrote: »
    I'm not familiar with the word enumerate used in this context, can you clarify what you're asking?

    And you want to talk about rights?!


  • Options
    #549
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    Overheal wrote: »
    And you want to talk about rights?!

    With you? Not really, you're the one asking me the most basic and fundamental questions about them.


  • Options
    #550
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,864 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    paleoperson wrote: »
    With you? Not really, you're the one asking me the most basic and fundamental questions about them.

    You’re the one arguing about a right, I was mistaken you knew something about rights then


  • Options
    #551
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    paleoperson wrote: »
    I know it wasn't, but I think it should have been. They've no right to give it away to foreigners who are only here due to exceptional circumstances.

    They have exactly that right.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #552
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    paleoperson wrote: »
    The right to the resources and assets of their country?

    Gifting it to foreigners is all well and good for people who think they're virtuous by doing so. But it belongs to the people of Ireland.

    No one has a right to the resources of their own country, as far as I'm aware.

    I could be wrong though I suppose. I might demand free beer in the Dail bar and take them to the Supreme court if they refuse.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Options
    #553
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    Brian? wrote: »
    No one has a right to the resources of their own country, as far as I'm aware.

    I could be wrong though I suppose. I might demand free beer in the Dail bar and take them to the Supreme court if they refuse.

    If it's a public resource then the people have an equal share of it in theory.

    The way it's used has to be in the interests of the public. Sometimes that may be making beer available to politicians, buying a few drinks to keep TDs in comfort sounds like a reasonable investment of public funds.


  • Options
    #554
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,864 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    paleoperson wrote: »
    If it's a public resource then the people have an equal share of it in theory.

    The way it's used has to be in the interests of the public. Sometimes that may be making beer available to politicians, buying a few drinks to keep TDs in comfort sounds like a reasonable investment of public funds.
    Oh so boozing up YOUR LEGISLATURE is a good use of (tens of) thousands of euro annually; But not a scholarship seemingly.


  • Options
    #555
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    paleoperson wrote: »
    If it's a public resource then the people have an equal share of it in theory.

    The way it's used has to be in the interests of the public. Sometimes that may be making beer available to politicians, buying a few drinks to keep TDs in comfort sounds like a reasonable investment of public funds.

    You’d rather see money go to TDs bar bills than a Syrian refugee? What if one of the TDs was Syrian?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Options
    #556
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    Overheal wrote: »
    Oh so boozing up YOUR LEGISLATURE is a good use of (tens of) thousands of euro annually; But not a scholarship seemingly.

    Scholarships are not an investment with a high or clear rate of return. They should first and foremost be given to the people. Giving it to an Irish person means it's not only being invested in the future but also being given to an Irish person anyway, it essentially can't be wasted.

    Where there are several potential candidates the Irish person should be the preferred choice. Instead of that, it's more like that the minority person is the preferred choice nowadays because it virtue signals and makes them look more politically correct.

    The Irish person is also a lot less likely to jump ship and go abroad the second they've completed their studies. There is a huge risk this girl will be off home as soon as she finishes and that will mean zero returns on investment whatsoever. We see enough of that with Ireland's free medical training fiasco.
    Brian? wrote: »
    You’d rather see money go to TDs bar bills than a Syrian refugee? What if one of the TDs was Syrian?

    If they're an Irish citizen and elected by the people then yes they have a right to it.


  • Options
    #557
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,864 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    paleoperson wrote: »
    Scholarships are not an investment with a high or clear rate of return. They should first and foremost be given to the people. Giving it to an Irish person means it's not only being invested in the future but also being given to an Irish person anyway, it essentially can't be wasted.

    No money spent on an Irish person 'essentially' can be wasted? Really?
    Where there are several potential candidates the Irish person should be the preferred choice. Instead of that, it's more like that the minority person is the preferred choice nowadays because it virtue signals and makes them look more politically correct.
    Baseless and speculative.
    The Irish person is also a lot less likely to jump ship and go abroad the second they've completed their studies.
    I've seen pleeeenty of Irish emigration to suggest otherwise heck we've had to deport a bunch of your aholes
    There is a huge risk this girl will be off home as soon as she finishes and that will mean zero returns on investment whatsoever. We see enough of that with Ireland's free medical training fiasco.

    How is there a huge risk of this when Syria is in tatters?
    If they're an Irish citizen and elected by the people then yes they have a right to it.

    "not an investment with a high or clear rate of return."


  • Options
    #558
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    Overheal wrote: »
    No money spent on an Irish person 'essentially' can be wasted? Really?

    You know what I mean, it can't be all bad with no return. It at least provided some service for that Irish person. The Irish government isn't supposed to be giving giving discretionary spending to foreign people.
    Overheal wrote: »
    I've seen pleeeenty of Irish emigration to suggest otherwise heck we've had to deport a bunch of your aholes

    Far less than people who have homes in other countries, come on.
    Overheal wrote: »
    How is there a huge risk of this when Syria is in tatters?

    The upper classes often aren't affected too much, especially those who are highly educated who are in huge need there and will be heavily enticed to come home and work there.
    Overheal wrote: »
    "not an investment with a high or clear rate of return."

    It's a defensible use of public funds. If you believe it's not then you can complain about it. That's what people do if they think public money isn't being put to good use...


  • Options
    #559
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,378 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Wealth has no bearing on refugee status, nor should it, logically.


    They have indeed been through the system and found to be genuine. If you can prove otherwise using sources, then out with it.

    If they have money, they can't be refugees.

    If they don't have money, they are economic migrants.

    You can't win with these people.


  • Options
    #560
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    paleoperson wrote: »
    Scholarships are not an investment with a high or clear rate of return. They should first and foremost be given to the people. Giving it to an Irish person means it's not only being invested in the future but also being given to an Irish person anyway, it essentially can't be wasted.

    Where there are several potential candidates the Irish person should be the preferred choice. Instead of that, it's more like that the minority person is the preferred choice nowadays because it virtue signals and makes them look more politically correct.

    The Irish person is also a lot less likely to jump ship and go abroad the second they've completed their studies. There is a huge risk this girl will be off home as soon as she finishes and that will mean zero returns on investment whatsoever. We see enough of that with Ireland's free medical training fiasco.



    If they're an Irish citizen and elected by the people then yes they have a right to it.

    Truly bizarre.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Options
    #561
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    paleoperson wrote: »
    Scholarships are not an investment with a high or clear rate of return. They should first and foremost be given to the people. Giving it to an Irish person means it's not only being invested in the future but also being given to an Irish person anyway, it essentially can't be wasted.

    Where there are several potential candidates the Irish person should be the preferred choice. Instead of that, it's more like that the minority person is the preferred choice nowadays because it virtue signals and makes them look more politically correct.

    The Irish person is also a lot less likely to jump ship and go abroad the second they've completed their studies. There is a huge risk this girl will be off home as soon as she finishes and that will mean zero returns on investment whatsoever. We see enough of that with Ireland's free medical training fiasco.



    If they're an Irish citizen and elected by the people then yes they have a right to it.

    essence of racism?

    And no right unless they can compete and are better than any other. Clearly this was not so. Are you saying we dumb down academic prowess?

    NB what exactly is the nationality status of refugees accepted here as this family are? Do they have equal citizenship rights?

    As for irish people being less likely to "jump ship"! A large proportion of newly trained Irish doctors and nurses leave Ireland for eg UAE never to return

    Being Irish does not mean loyalty to Ireland.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #562
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,864 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    paleoperson wrote: »
    The Irish government isn't supposed to be giving giving discretionary spending to foreign people.

    My understanding from the Irish Times, Ireland’s governmental policy is to designate 0.7% of its gross national income to foreign aid (the ODA) by 2030. I imagine this was target was set constitutionally, with hundreds of millions already spent - so it seems they are supposed to. If the Irish government wasn’t supposed to be doing that maybe you should let them know.

    To quote yourself,

    “It's a defensible use of public funds. If you believe it's not then you can complain about it. That's what people do if they think public money isn't being put to good use...”


  • Options
    #563
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    Graces7 I already explained both of those things. I find your use of the term "dumb down" highly inappropriate and possibly even offensive. It's like saying if you spend money on children in lower classes rather than those in higher classes you are "dumbing down academic prowess".... no you're not. Though high achievement is required for scholarships it's not the only sensible criteria to have. Giving scholarships to Irish citizens is a bit like the government deciding to "buy Irish" as the money then has multiple benefits - investment and also going back into the Irish economy/people. Next you'll be saying "buying Irish" is racist. Also I'm the one who brought up that well-known phenomenon of Irish medical professionals going abroad, that is confined to medicine and even then they're a lot more LIKELY to stay.
    Overheal wrote: »
    My understanding from the Irish Times, Ireland’s governmental policy is to designate 0.7% of its gross national income to foreign aid (the ODA) by 2030. I imagine this was target was set constitutionally, with hundreds of millions already spent - so it seems they are supposed to. If the Irish government wasn’t supposed to be doing that maybe you should let them know.

    To quote yourself,

    “It's a defensible use of public funds. If you believe it's not then you can complain about it. That's what people do if they think public money isn't being put to good use...”

    Your understanding has no relevance to what I said. I said "The Irish government isn't supposed to be giving giving discretionary spending to foreign people.".

    Didn't you learn in business studies regular, irregular and discretionary expenditure? Discretionary is the one that doesn't need to be spent, it's done by discretion. Perhaps there is a more concise way of putting it, that's obviously what I meant given the context. I obviously meant spending that was not the usual, necessary spending such as foreign aid. It is totally unorthodox and constitutionally and ethically questionable to be giving money to fund discretionary projects abroad, at least unless it has the full and clear will of the people - in general the money is supposed to be for Irish people. I don't know whether you're trolling by pretending I didn't know governments give foreign aid or it's an honest mistake, either way it's moot.


  • Options
    #564
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    paleoperson wrote: »
    Graces7 I already explained both of those things. I find your use of the term "dumb down" highly inappropriate and possibly even offensive. It's like saying if you spend money on children in lower classes rather than those in higher classes you are "dumbing down academic prowess".... no you're not. Though high achievement is required for scholarships it's not the only sensible criteria to have. Giving scholarships to Irish citizens is a bit like the government deciding to "buy Irish" as the money then has multiple benefits - investment and also going back into the Irish economy/people. Next you'll be saying "buying Irish" is racist. Also I'm the one who brought up that well-known phenomenon of Irish medical professionals going abroad, that is confined to medicine and even then they're a lot more LIKELY to stay.



    Your understanding has no relevance to what I said. I said "The Irish government isn't supposed to be giving giving discretionary spending to foreign people.".

    Didn't you learn in business studies regular, irregular and discretionary expenditure? Discretionary is the one that doesn't need to be spent, it's done by discretion. Perhaps there is a more concise way of putting it, that's obviously what I meant given the context. I obviously meant spending that was not the usual, necessary spending such as foreign aid. It is totally unorthodox and constitutionally and ethically questionable to be giving money to fund discretionary projects abroad, at least unless it has the full and clear will of the people - in general the money is supposed to be for Irish people. I don't know whether you're trolling by pretending I didn't know governments give foreign aid or it's an honest mistake, either way it's moot.

    You're turning yourself in knots here.

    You're ok with foreign aid. You're ok with beer for TDs.

    But the government should not be allowed give money to a foreigner.

    Bizarre

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Options
    #565
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    paleoperson wrote: »
    Graces7 I already explained both of those things. I find your use of the term "dumb down" highly inappropriate and possibly even offensive. It's like saying if you spend money on children in lower classes rather than those in higher classes you are "dumbing down academic prowess".... no you're not. Though high achievement is required for scholarships it's not the only sensible criteria to have. Giving scholarships to Irish citizens is a bit like the government deciding to "buy Irish" as the money then has multiple benefits - investment and also going back into the Irish economy/people. Next you'll be saying "buying Irish" is racist. Also I'm the one who brought up that well-known phenomenon of Irish medical professionals going abroad, that is confined to medicine and even then they're a lot more LIKELY to stay.


    It is the only sensible criteria. High academic achievement transcends national concerns. Unless you seek to make Ireland a lesser state? Only for ireland? we are a world factor and world concerns matter. The winner lives in Ireland
    and is a prize for ireland, a gifted young person living here legally and from choice. More than just born here by far.. and a shining light for Ireland's educational system.


    Your stats are way off re medics also. We are desperately and dangerously short of drs and nurses. The pay ad conditions are far better in Dubai .


    Oh and please refresh re my queries? Thank you.

    As for buying Irish? The goods have to be better than others in a world market. By your arguments s long as it is Irish quality is a secondary consideration.

    You have misunderstood re " dumbing down"! Totally. I meant that if you say that only Irish need apply then you are lowering standards by saying that even if a non-Irish person is better qualified then she will have to take second place?

    Hard to believe what you are saying and of course it has no validity or relevance thankfully


  • Options
    #566
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You need to get 600+ Points in the LC to do medicine in Uni.
    Are you suggesting she didn’t get the points for some reason? Why do you think that?

    In my day (1997) I was doing the LC in the institute, and they didn;t need the same points for RCS medical school.

    They had some amnesty, think they needed around 350.


  • Options
    #567
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Lewis Creamy Stepdaughter wrote: »
    A similar singular story would be that I met a largely illiterate Syrian lad in his late 20's at the local corner shop signalling for me to buy him a box of eggs.
    Bought him the 'charity eggs box' after working out wha he wanted (after much hand signaling) and mumbling. Felt sorry for the chap, what sort of bright future does he herald one wonders?

    Whilst this singular scholarship story (using the Irish education system, including additional free resources, extra classes and after-school supports), is positive
    - it's not really relevant to current conditions this year.

    i.e. This year Syrian's (war mostly over now) don't even feature in the top 5 sources of applicants for IPO.
    Instead (non-war) torn countries such as Albania (nearly 25% of all applicants across recent months), have 99.97% rejection (but not removal) rates.
    Georgia is 2nd, then places like Zimbabwe, South Africa, Nigeria and Pakistan. All with high rejection rates (simple economic/fiscal migration trends).

    Ideally vulnerable families and youngsters (such as this lady) should be given preference, so they have the best chances of integration.
    However most applicants currently are single men, and the very high rejection rates indicate they are not genuine, and thus are taking the resources and processing efforts, that genuine applicants could have avaiiled of.

    Quiet Bigot!


  • Options
    #568
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,864 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Didn't you learn in business studies regular, irregular and discretionary expenditure? Discretionary is the one that doesn't need to be spent, it's done by discretion
    was it “discretionary?” Sounds like an established scholarship program, with qualifiers, which this Syrian met. It wasn’t just a handful of bleeding heart TDs cutting her a cheque from the treasury for her like you’re arguing


  • Options
    #569
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,114 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    paleoperson wrote: »
    Scholarships are not an investment with a high or clear rate of return. They should first and foremost be given to the people. Giving it to an Irish person means it's not only being invested in the future but also being given to an Irish person anyway, it essentially can't be wasted.

    Where there are several potential candidates the Irish person should be the preferred choice. Instead of that, it's more like that the minority person is the preferred choice nowadays because it virtue signals and makes them look more politically correct.

    The Irish person is also a lot less likely to jump ship and go abroad the second they've completed their studies. There is a huge risk this girl will be off home as soon as she finishes and that will mean zero returns on investment whatsoever. We see enough of that with Ireland's free edical training fiasco.

    If they're an Irish citizen and elected by the people then yes they have a right to it.

    All state funded scholarships should be given on the proviso the person getting them has to work for the state for a period of time.
    And that is equally applicable whether you are from Timbuktu or Tallaght, Aleppo or Ahascragh.

    In fact the idea might be used for just funding for certain very necessary courses like medicine.
    A bit like the premise in Northern Exposure many years ago.

    Even taking into account registration fees the state subsidises the courses, some more massively than others depending on the topic or training.
    As it is the state might spend a fortune training a doctor, vet, pharmacist, engineer and never see a return on that investment as the person leaves.

    Now anyone doing likes of gender studies, multiculutaral studies, etc can gladly fook off, in fact I wouldn't bother providing any state funding for such shyteology when we have dire need of proper professionals from proper courses.
    Yeah yeah lets hear the Orban comparisons. :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #570
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,196 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    paleoperson wrote: »
    Graces7 I already explained both of those things. I find your use of the term "dumb down" highly inappropriate and possibly even offensive. It's like saying if you spend money on children in lower classes rather than those in higher classes you are "dumbing down academic prowess".... no you're not. Though high achievement is required for scholarships it's not the only sensible criteria to have. Giving scholarships to Irish citizens is a bit like the government deciding to "buy Irish" as the money then has multiple benefits - investment and also going back into the Irish economy/people. Next you'll be saying "buying Irish" is racist. Also I'm the one who brought up that well-known phenomenon of Irish medical professionals going abroad, that is confined to medicine and even then they're a lot more LIKELY to stay.

    High acheivement was the whole point of the bursary she received. If they gave it to an irish person with lesser achievement that would be the definition of dumbing down.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #571
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    Overheal wrote: »
    was it “discretionary?” Sounds like an established scholarship program, with qualifiers, which this Syrian met. It wasn’t just a handful of bleeding heart TDs cutting her a cheque from the treasury for her like you’re arguing

    When I say "discretionary" I mean the word in contrast with vital, emergency, charity money that would cause terrible hardship or death to civilians if Ireland didn't provide it. Hope that's finally clear enough for what I meant. When it's not vital and there is no return on investment, non-Irish citizens should be excluded.
    jmayo wrote: »
    All state funded scholarships should be given on the proviso the person getting them has to work for the state for a period of time.

    Right.
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    High acheivement was the whole point of the bursary she received. If they gave it to an irish person with lesser achievement that would be the definition of dumbing down.

    Rubbish.

    "dumbing down" is commonly used to refer to making a syllabus or education standard easier. Graces7 is using it in a highly unorthodox and questionable way, apparently meaning that the student who would get the bursary is "dumber" than the Syrian who had the higher earlier achievement.

    If you're going to use the term "dumbing down" like this then it turns into a completely different term, to the point where "dumbing down" would be a good and progressive thing at least half the time. As I explained it would be like saying you were "dumbing down" education by spending money on the worse, or as I suppose you would say "dumber" classes.


Advertisement