Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Shefwedfan · 13-11-2019 8:11am

Anyway.....

So with the 6 nations around the cornor and with everything going on with Saracens do people think it could affect their performances? Will be interesting to see if Saracens really take foot off gas in Europe.

Wales I think might struggle with loss of Gatland

France could be the dark horse as they look decent in WC and should have won v Wales.

With both England and France away I think we could see Ireland win all their home games and lose one of the away games. Maybe England. So in with a chance

irishbucsfan · 13-11-2019 8:12am

I think people are vastly, vastly overrating the importance of the media.

Or maybe I'm wrong and we should bring back Joe, but the IRFU should fire the sports editor of the irish times!

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 8:45am

Media is hugely important. Top level sport doesn't exist without it. You can see it at all times in every sport in the World every day of the week. Take VAR in the soccer, how else would that message that its not working get out there? Then you have individuals and bodies feeding off the cycle, Stockdale saids he reads the press. The English RFU seem to have a much better grasp of how effective PR and in house media can work. Their rising sons doc was literally all access and fed the beast. Players love it and do feed off it, both praise and criticism. Anything else is a lie.

The media spin is already turning. Three positive stories - thornley, Luke, POM all feeding into it. Framing the narrative of we're back all controlled by professional PR people provincially and in the IRFU. fair enough i suppose. It can't be a wake all season.

The Irish players are molly coddled and indulged by a small press pack who need access. Thornley is the worst. The healing in an international context hasn't begun at all. It will only begin when Farrell names a first 6 Nations squad based on who is playing well this season. I think we are now past the point of saying a good weekend in the champions cup means anything other than each province doing well in their own right.

We need better analysis of the problems. I think if we see a same old same old tired squad for the Six Nations, the media has a role in calling that out.

Farrell will be under immediate pressure, he has none of the goodwill Joe built with Leinster before taking on the Irish job. And as a few journos have admitted afterwards they were tired of much of Joe's **** housing in the press.

Former Former · 13-11-2019 8:55am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think people are vastly, vastly overrating the importance of the media.

Or maybe I'm wrong and we should bring back Joe, but the IRFU should fire the sports editor of the irish times!

In fairness, it's widely acknowledged that Ruairí O'Connor and Brent Pope were the main reasons we won the grand slam in 2018, so it's only fair that they take some of the blame now.

Look, the last month has been a competition to see who can be the angriest about the RWC and who can be the most smug in saying "I told you so".

What's happening now is that we've exhausted all the ways to be a dick about the fans, the actual rugby team and the coach, so a new target is needed. "The media" is always a favourite.

awec · 13-11-2019 9:03am

Former Former wrote: »

In fairness, it's widely acknowledged that Ruairí O'Connor and Brent Pope were the main reasons we won the grand slam in 2018, so it's only fair that they take some of the blame now.

Look, the last month has been a competition to see who can be the angriest about the RWC and who can be the most smug in saying "I told you so".

What's happening now is that we've exhausted all the ways to be a dick about the fans, the actual rugby team and the coach, so a new target is needed. "The media" is always a favourite.

Ha!

I think if anything the past month has been a competition among certain posters in trying to convince us all that you can’t blame the coaches, or the players, or the IRFU, that there’s nothing really to complain about, and how real fans don’t take issue with anything that happened, and sure the World Cup only happens every 4 years anyway.

Take your sarcastic, patronising bollocks somewhere else, if you’re not interested in discussion about Ireland, which is going to include criticism of Ireland, then I reckon this thread is not for you.

awec · 13-11-2019 9:10am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I think Standers wife gave a small insight into the mentality maybe. Criticising media coverage of their performances after a pretty abysmal RWC on the back of a very poor 6n.

Wouldn't read too much into that, but her comments were seriously out of touch. A dose of reality required for her.

irishbucsfan · 13-11-2019 9:13am

awec wrote: »

Ha!

I think if anything the past month has been a competition among certain posters in trying to convince us all that you can’t blame the coaches, or the players, or the IRFU, that there’s nothing really to complain about, and how real fans don’t take issue with anything that happened, and sure the World Cup only happens every 4 years anyway.

Take your sarcastic, patronising bollocks somewhere else, if you’re not interested in discussion about Ireland, which is going to include criticism of Ireland, then I reckon this thread is not for you.

Can you give us some example of these posts or posters?

Obviously it’s the players and coaches fault. That’s completely undeniable by anyone but I haven’t seen anyone come close to saying that.

The idea it’s the fault of the fans or the media is absolute and utter nonsense just spread around either by people who are incredibly bitter or who have a personal problem with rugby people.

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 9:15am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can you give us some example of these posts or posters?

there has been loads.

The media has hyped it up. Take the Indo knives are out, but for years they were lapping it up. A joke. Lots of fans hyping up wins, shouting down any people who suggested that it wasn't going to work in a World Cup.

I even seem to remeber reading people like yourself saying form doesn't matter. Really?

Former Former · 13-11-2019 9:27am

awec wrote: »

Ha!

I think if anything the past month has been a competition among certain posters in trying to convince us all that you can’t blame the coaches, or the players, or the IRFU, that there’s nothing really to complain about, and how real fans don’t take issue with anything that happened, and sure the World Cup only happens every 4 years anyway.

Take your sarcastic, patronising bollocks somewhere else, if you’re not interested in discussion about Ireland, which is going to include criticism of Ireland, then I reckon this thread is not for you.

I am very interested in discussion about Ireland and would love to engage in same. I didn't agree with the initial squad selection or team selection during the tournament and was very unhappy with the performances of many players. I'd love to discuss all of that.

However, when any rational discussion of what went wrong is shouted down by you and others telling us we're making excuses and giving them a free pass, then sarcastic bollocks becomes the only appropriate response.

awec · 13-11-2019 9:28am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can you give us some example of these posts or posters?

Obviously it’s the players and coaches fault. That’s completely undeniable by anyone but I haven’t seen anyone come close to saying that.

The idea it’s the fault of the fans or the media is absolute and utter nonsense just spread around either by people who are incredibly bitter or who have a personal problem with rugby people.

I think people are taking issue with a cringeworthy Thornley article that suggests some poxy pro14 interpro matches are the beginning of some "healing process" for another world cup disaster.

It's vacuous bollocks from our rugby media, as if results in the tin pot league that our clubs play in really mitigates anything that's happened in 2019 for Ireland.

awec · 13-11-2019 9:31am

Former Former wrote: »

I am very interested in discussion about Ireland and would love to engage in same. I didn't agree with the initial squad selection or team selection during the tournament and was very unhappy with the performances of many players. I'd love to discuss all of that.

However, when any rational discussion of what went wrong is shouted down by you and others telling us we're making excuses and giving them a free pass, then sarcastic bollocks becomes the only appropriate response.

I didn't shout down any rational discussion. I did shout down this talk of inferior players, how such and such a player is just miles better so therefore could not possibly be dropped, how player X was phenomenal 12 months ago therefore could not possibly be rotated, how you cannot prove beyond all reasonable doubt that rotating players works therefore the only sensible thing is not to rotate players etc etc etc.

But seriously, please do discuss what you were unhappy about, I would genuinely like to read it. What selections did you disagree with?

sydthebeat · 13-11-2019 9:32am

Why do people need to go to the polar end oh hyperbole to make their point?

It only serves to make the point look a bit ridiculous.

The arguments are better served when they stay balanced.

The players went their wanting to win the World Cup. They didn't. They were beaten in the quarter finals.

If they had have beaten russia by 100-0 it would have made no difference to us being beaten by NZ.. So I've no idea why that's been used as some kind of yard stick. We could have seriously struggled against Samoa going down to 14 early on, but we didn't, we played very well in that game and won at a canter. Why isn't that used a yard stick?

The world cup was a failure. The reasons have all been hypothesised at this stage.

Maybe the reason we haven't gotten to a semi final is because we're actually not one of the best four teams in the world??

connemara man · 13-11-2019 9:37am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Why do people need to go to the polar end oh hyperbole to make their point?

It only serves to make the point look a bit ridiculous.

The arguments are better served when they stay balanced.

The players went their wanting to win the World Cup. They didn't. They were beaten in the quarter finals.

If they had have beaten russia by 100-0 it would have made no difference to us being beaten by NZ.. So I've no idea why that's been used as some kind of yard stick. We could have seriously struggled against Samoa going down to 14 early on, but we didn't, we played very well in that game and won at a canter. Why isn't that used a yard stick?

The world cup was a failure. The reasons have all been hypothesised at this stage.

Maybe the reason we haven't gotten to a semi final is because we're actually not one of the best four teams in the world??

Just on the bolded bit I'd say boards have done more of that than "the press" and that winds people up. It feels like the media have brushed it under the carpet after their initial reactions.

errlloyd · 13-11-2019 9:40am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Maybe the reason we haven't gotten to a semi final is because we're actually not one of the best four teams in the world??

This is basically it. Between world cups we get much more from our players base than anyone else (thought good management, structures and availability). During world cups we get the same from our player base as everyone else. People think South Africa / Australia / France etc peak at the world cup are missing the more obvious explanation - that they trough the rest of the time. Ultimately when the playing field is level we struggle to match up.

awec · 13-11-2019 9:42am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Why do people need to go to the polar end oh hyperbole to make their point?

It only serves to make the point look a bit ridiculous.

The arguments are better served when they stay balanced.

The players went their wanting to win the World Cup. They didn't. They were beaten in the quarter finals.

If they had have beaten russia by 100-0 it would have made no difference to us being beaten by NZ.. So I've no idea why that's been used as some kind of yard stick. We could have seriously struggled against Samoa going down to 14 early on, but we didn't, we played very well in that game and won at a canter. Why isn't that used a yard stick?

The world cup was a failure. The reasons have all been hypothesised at this stage.

Maybe the reason we haven't gotten to a semi final is because we're actually not one of the best four teams in the world??

This is an interesting point.

We clearly were one of the best sides in the world in the very recent past, but was that because we were genuinely one of the best in the world (in which case, we should have done much better at the WC), or was it because while we were going hell for leather trying to win every single game other teams were looking at the bigger picture?

I don't think we can just simply say "we're not one of the best in the world so a semi final is beyond us" because that's too vague. I keep using Wales as an example, their clubs are a total joke but they continually out-perform us in WCs. Do they have better players than us?

Obviously the rankings are all relative, so while we were flying high then maybe the argument can be made that other teams were at a low, in which case we're possibly guilty of blowing smoke up our own arses and over-egging the achievements of this team.

aloooof · 13-11-2019 9:45am

awec wrote: »

I think people are taking issue with a cringeworthy Thornley article that suggests some poxy pro14 interpro matches are the beginning of some "healing process" for another world cup disaster.

It's vacuous bollocks from our rugby media, as if results in the tin pot league that our clubs play in really mitigates anything that's happened in 2019 for Ireland.

I think people are reading too much into the headline (which Thornley very likely didn't pick). The vast majority of the article is a preview of this weekends Heineken Cup games. There really just seems to be one line that's causing issue:

These are early days in Irish rugby’s redemption story, and Murray’s turnover penalty was only a small cameo in the greater scheme of things, but maybe it also typified promising signs that the healing process has begun.

He's admittedly giving it too much importance to one turnover penalty, but to me it's also an allusion to Conor Murray's long-term neck injury improving, after he won a jackal penalty, which was referred to earlier in the article.

awec · 13-11-2019 9:48am

connemara man wrote: »

Just on the bolded bit I'd say boards have done more of that than "the press" and that winds people up. It feels like the media have brushed it under the carpet after their initial reactions.

Agreed. And I don't think it's a vindictive thing for the most part (though there certainly are vindictive elements).

People do want to see some well thought out, critique of Irish Rugby, and some thinking as to why we are consistent losers in the world cup.

Unfortunately, our rugby press is too afraid of losing their cosy access to the team, of writing anything too scathing, so we get the vacuous bollocks that we get which just pretends like nothing too bad happened. Let's just move on and forget about it.

Nobody is suggesting the press are responsible for results, but it is very unfortunate that the rugby press in Ireland is so polar, either we have the timid nonsense from the main papers or Kinsella's anorak bollocks, or we have the crazed lunatic brazilian who doesn't even remotely understand the sport. Nothing in between.

awec · 13-11-2019 9:49am

aloooof wrote: »

I think people are reading too much into the headline (which Thornley very likely didn't pick). The vast majority of the article is a preview of this weekends Heineken Cup games. There really just seems to be one line that's causing issue:

He's admittedly giving it too much importance to one turnover penalty, but to me it's also an allusion to Conor Murray's long-term neck injury improving, after he won a jackal penalty, which was referred to earlier in the article.

Honestly the HEC makes no difference to me this weekend.

The only way to heal Ireland's world cup hurt is to finally break this fecking glass ceiling and get to that damn semi final. 4 more years we wait.

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 9:50am

awec wrote: »

I think people are taking issue with a cringeworthy Thornley article that suggests some poxy pro14 interpro matches are the beginning of some "healing process" for another world cup disaster.

It's vacuous bollocks from our rugby media, as if results in the tin pot league that our clubs play in really mitigates anything that's happened in 2019 for Ireland.

also in which our main "stars" rarely play which is also another fallacy that needs to be called out. I'd argue Andy Dunne is quite fair, unfortunately his middling career maybe hampers him as he's neither had the career to talk,and is neither a journo.

aloooof · 13-11-2019 9:52am

Niallof9 wrote: »

also in which our main "stars" rarely play which is also another fallacy that needs to be called out

I don't think I've seen anyone claim otherwise??

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 9:57am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Why do people need to go to the polar end oh hyperbole to make their point?

It only serves to make the point look a bit ridiculous.

The arguments are better served when they stay balanced.

The players went their wanting to win the World Cup. They didn't. They were beaten in the quarter finals.

If they had have beaten russia by 100-0 it would have made no difference to us being beaten by NZ.. So I've no idea why that's been used as some kind of yard stick. We could have seriously struggled against Samoa going down to 14 early on, but we didn't, we played very well in that game and won at a canter. Why isn't that used a yard stick?

The world cup was a failure. The reasons have all been hypothesised at this stage.

Maybe the reason we haven't gotten to a semi final is because we're actually not one of the best four teams in the world??

Ignore the obvious elephant in the room why don't you. Russia doesn't matter, NZ doesn't matter.

Your last bit is the whole point of it tho. Stop the hype then, stop the talk, stop the reviews, stop releasing dvds, stop all the bull**** around everything. If all four provinces win this weekend, who cares that has no bearing on the Irish rugby team. the media, fans, cheerleaders should just take it one game at a time.

Then people like myself would have less of an issue. But we have the constant cycle of boom, bust and for me and it seems like others its so so tiring.

For a small example we already have people talking down Kelleher. Absolutely mind boggling. Particularly so when Joe actually started rewarding young players.

13-11-2019 9:59am

Ah lads. Some of this guff I'd expect from certain posters but I'm genuinely surprised at the tone here.

The Ireland team, coaching staff and support staff that went to the world cup are all top drawer, hard working and proven individuals.

Collectively they got it wrong. You can do everything to best practice in preparation for a contest and ultimately still get it wrong. Whatever else happened in Japan, a lack of hard work and effort was not the cause. It's certainly humiliating for the players (no doubt to a man they feel that) but I'm not sure what value there is in pointing that out.

It's sport. It's a competition. A year out we looked in good shape and on the run in things started to go against us. There will be some big reasons for this and countless small ones. We've had an influx of posters here purely to take joy in our disappointment, we're probably just about getting to the point where an actual discussion can take place as to the fundamental breakdown that happened with the Irish team in 2019 but this defensiveness and mud slinging and talk of humiliation is going to continue to sideline any constructive discussion.

Have barely set foot in the any of the national team threads since the Japan game and reading the last few pages provides plenty of examples why.

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 10:03am

aloooof wrote: »

I don't think I've seen anyone claim otherwise??

People, fans, players have claimed our player welfare system is the envy of the World. Yet we went to the World CUp with two injured players and alot of tired bodies.

Imo our players play too few games/minutes as well as damaging the integrity of the pro 14. It also leads to the false form barometers and ringfenced contracts based on a few Champions Cup games and the cycle and hype continues.

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 10:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah lads. Some of this guff I'd expect from certain posters but I'm genuinely surprised at the tone here.

Have barely set foot in the any of the national team threads since the Japan game and reading the last few pages provides plenty of examples why.

and yet we just had somebody argue that no posters have denied our problems exist etc....

Sure just ignore the issues like you've been doing...

and if the views don't align with your own best to ignore. is that right?

the only guff so far has been the above.

sydthebeat · 13-11-2019 10:12am

awec wrote: »

People do want to see some well thought out, critique of Irish Rugby, and some thinking as to why we are consistent losers in the world cup.
.

i think its been suggested by (i think it was brian moore first, then others like darren cave... and something which has been said here loads of times).. that the main reason for our RWC failures compared to our peaks during the cycle is because of our access to our top level players (in regard to conditioning, welfare etc) being greater than other countries.

however when the RWC rolls around everyone has generally the same access, so our point of difference is negated.
as an extension of this, look what japan were able to do with practically full year of access to its players to hone them

awec · 13-11-2019 10:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah lads. Some of this guff I'd expect from certain posters but I'm genuinely surprised at the tone here.

The Ireland team, coaching staff and support staff that went to the world cup are all top drawer, hard working and proven individuals.

Collectively they got it wrong. You can do everything to best practice in preparation for a contest and ultimately still get it wrong. Whatever else happened in Japan, a lack of hard work and effort was not the cause. It's certainly humiliating for the players (no doubt to a man they feel that) but I'm not sure what value there is in pointing that out.

It's sport. It's a competition. A year out we looked in good shape and on the run in things started to go against us. There will be some big reasons for this and countless small ones. We've had an influx of posters here purely to take joy in our disappointment, we're probably just about getting to the point where an actual discussion can take place as to the fundamental breakdown that happened with the Irish team in 2019 but this defensiveness and mud slinging and talk of humiliation is going to continue to sideline any constructive discussion.

Have barely set foot in the any of the national team threads since the Japan game and reading the last few pages provides plenty of examples why.

"It's sport, it's a competition" is a pretty dismissive angle to take on it. Again, it's all too easy and convenient a way to avoid saying anything too negative.

I'm not really sure what you're looking for here? Was RWC2019 humiliating for Ireland? Yes. Is it un-constructive to point that out? I don't think so.

What do you think the reasons were for us going from being really quite excellent in 2019, to pretty bloody rubbish in 2019?

awec · 13-11-2019 10:17am

sydthebeat wrote: »

i think its been suggested by (i think it was brian moore first, then others like darren cave... and something which has been said here loads of times).. that the main reason for our RWC failures compared to our peaks during the cycle is because of our access to our top level players (in regard to conditioning, welfare etc) being greater than other countries.

however when the RWC rolls around everyone has generally the same access, so our point of difference is negated.
as an extension of this, look what japan were able to do with practically full year of access to its players to hone them

Doesn't this suggest then that our achievements in the in-between years, while certainly notable and deserving of high praise, also must be caveated with the fact that our competition is possibly not going at it as full throttle as we are?

So, like the second point I made somewhere in one of my posts above, maybe we really are guilty of blowing smoke up our own arses a bit too much, and overdoing it on our achievements in the in-between years.

So I guess the question is what can we do to fix this? Because I really don't want the answer to be that we just can't beat these teams when they decide they really want to have a go at it.

Former Former · 13-11-2019 10:18am

awec wrote: »

But seriously, please do discuss what you were unhappy about, I would genuinely like to read it. What selections did you disagree with?

I didn't agree with Kleyn and Beirne from the off and nothing we saw in Japan changed my mind.

It was increasingly obvious that Best was done and should have got the D'Arcy treatment, either before or during the tournament.

Henshaw should have been sent home halfway through the pools.

But ultimately selection didn't really matter. Would Toner, N Scannell or C Farrell have made any difference? No. That's our problem, we just don't have the squad depth we need.

So what did go wrong? The Japanese result got inside our heads IMO. It's long forgotten that for 20 minutes, it looked like we would blow them away but we got a couple of unlucky breaks and we don't have the on-field leadership to right the ship when things went awry.

So the pressure piles on. By the time we get to the NZ game, we were already beaten but still, you can't legislate for some of the stuff we saw. Sexton missing touch twice, then Carbery comes on and does likewise?

In the end of it all, we missed our window. Key players lost form or got too old and their potential replacements weren't good enough. We're always going to be subject to cyclical changes in squad quality and this RWC came at a trough.

Joe could have gambled on lesser players hitting the form of their lives, instead he hoped that better players would come good. It didn't pan out but I don't think the alternative option would have helped.

aloooof · 13-11-2019 10:18am

Niallof9 wrote: »

People, fans, players have claimed our player welfare system is the envy of the World. Yet we went to the World CUp with two injured players and alot of tired bodies.

Imo our players play too few games/minutes as well as damaging the integrity of the pro 14. It also leads to the false form barometers and ringfenced contracts based on a few Champions Cup games and the cycle and hype continues.

Fair enough, but all of that is different from what you seemed to be implying above (and what I replied to).

Riskymove · 13-11-2019 10:24am

Originally Posted by sydthebeat View Post

Maybe the reason we haven't gotten to a semi final is because we're actually not one of the best four teams in the world??

I think this oversimplifies it, not all QFs consist of 1 top 4 team and someone else so you don't always have to beat a top 4 team to make the SF

I don't think anyone would claim that Scotland or Argentina were one of the top 4 teams when they managed to win a QF.

In any event, imo, it is not simply the fact that we have failed to win a QF but the particularly poor performances that have resulted in us hardly ever being in with a chance of winning the QF that is the issue

The QF has generally been an awful performance regardless of whether we have been in form in the pool stage or not

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 10:24am

aloooof wrote: »

Fair enough, but all of that is different from what you seemed to be implying above (and what I replied to).

Ok i should have said the fallacy of our system being the envy of the World, when recently it has proven to be anything but

sydthebeat · 13-11-2019 10:26am

awec wrote: »

I'm not really sure what you're looking for here? Was RWC2019 humiliating for Ireland? Yes.

humiliating???

humiliation is a very strong word to use...

if irelands QF exit is humiliation.... then how would you describe englands pool exit as the host country 4 years ago?? youd have to stretch your lexicon to get a comparative world for that.

Failure, yes. Disappointing, yes.
expected???? well yes... we were expected to go out at the QF stages

aloooof · 13-11-2019 10:28am

Riskymove wrote: »

I think this oversimplifies it, not all QFs consist of 1 top 4 team and someone else so you don't always have to beat a top 4 team to make the SF

I don't think anyone would claim that Scotland or Argentina were one of the top 4 teams when they managed to win a QF.

In any event, imo, it is not simply the fact that we have failed to win a QF but the particularly poor performances that have resulted in us hardly ever being in with a chance of winning the QF that is the issue

The QF has generally been an awful performance regardless of whether we have been in form in the pool stage or not

I think this is the most worrying thing for me. We've never been ahead in a QF since the game went pro. We haven't even been competitive, we're not even getting close.

awec · 13-11-2019 10:29am

Former Former wrote: »

I didn't agree with Kleyn and Beirne from the off and nothing we saw in Japan changed my mind.

It was increasingly obvious that Best was done and should have got the D'Arcy treatment, either before or during the tournament.

Henshaw should have been sent home halfway through the pools.

But ultimately selection didn't really matter. Would Toner, N Scannell or C Farrell have made any difference? No. That's our problem, we just don't have the squad depth we need.

So what did go wrong? The Japanese result got inside our heads IMO. It's long forgotten that for 20 minutes, it looked like we would blow them away but we got a couple of unlucky breaks and we don't have the on-field leadership to right the ship when things went awry.

So the pressure piles on. By the time we get to the NZ game, we were already beaten but still, you can't legislate for some of the stuff we saw. Sexton missing touch twice, then Carbery comes on and does likewise?

In the end of it all, we missed our window. Key players lost form or got too old and their potential replacements weren't good enough. We're always going to be subject to cyclical changes in squad quality and this RWC came at a trough.

Joe could have gambled on lesser players hitting the form of their lives, instead he hoped that better players would come good. It didn't pan out but I don't think the alternative option would have helped.

Agree with bits of this for sure. I think Henshaw should have been sent home as soon as the injury hit. Agree about Kleyn and Beirne.

I think by the time the WC came round, the horse had already bolted in terms of rotating players out. IMO, the changes should have been ringing back in February / March, with real competition for spots being pushed, and we could have arrived in September with an in-form (or at least, more in-form that it was) team.

I would add a few more. Stockdale should have been dropped, he has been terrible all year. Conway was the form player here and should have been in. I'd have had Larmour in for Kearney this year. Not bringing Toner was a huge mistake as Henderson is just too inconsistent, and neither Kleyn nor Beirne are good enough.

But the players is really just one half of the issue. The tactics, the setup, it was all just wrong. We had been found out but did nothing to adapt to this fact. That one is squarely on the coaches.

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 10:30am

sydthebeat wrote: »

humiliating???

humiliation is a very strong word to use...

if irelands QF exit is humiliation.... then how would you describe englands pool exit as the host country 4 years ago?? youd have to stretch your lexicon to get a comparative world for that.

Failure, yes. Disappointing, yes.
expected???? well yes... we were expected to go go out at the QF stages

we were expected to lose to Japan were we? will you please stop with this self defeating nonsense.

sydthebeat · 13-11-2019 10:30am

awec wrote: »

So, like the second point I made somewhere in one of my posts above, maybe we really are guilty of blowing smoke up our own arses a bit too much, and overdoing it on our achievements in the in-between years.
.

yeah i don't have a problem admitting to that.....
are we essentially at our best when others are not at theres... well thats hardly our fault. When the playing field is levelled we go backwards.
do we overachieve?? we certainly have in the last 6 years

Riskymove · 13-11-2019 10:31am

sydthebeat wrote: »

if irelands QF exit is humiliation.... s

I don't know if you are deliberately just focussing on the QF or not to suit but I think its clear that it is the overall RWC performance that may be seen as humiliating

losing a QF to NZ cannot in itself be seen as humiliating even given that we were poor

sydthebeat · 13-11-2019 10:34am

Niallof9 wrote: »

we were expected to lose to Japan were we? will you please stop with this self defeating nonsense.

what do you mean "were we?" .... i didnt say that obviously.... as you quoted exactly what i said.

are you saying we were not expected to go out at QF stage?? because its easy to show that we were.

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 10:37am

sydthebeat wrote: »

what do you mean "were we?" .... i didnt say that obviously.... as you quoted exactly what i said.

are you saying we were not expected to go out at QF stage?? because its easy to show that we were.

Its implied because posters like yourself always conveiently leave out the fact about the Japan game, where we played our third choice outhalf and were planning on resting our frontliners after that game in anticipation of the SA quarters, where despite what has transpired, we had a great chance. Obviously though from the minute of the botched squad announcement, and selection our race was rung, so what happened, happened in a way. But plenty of folk, myself included (in a different guise) were saying this a long time back. The Dunnes, the horgans, williams. We were made look foolish at times, but we were proven correct.

No we weren't meant to go out. We were good enough to beat Japan but we shat the bed and ended up playing a weakened NZ, against whom we put in ,possibly, our worst world cup performance, ever. Japan would be the worst, but underestimating them was key, and Argentina QF had the injuries mitigation. So two of our worst ever performances came in the the 2019 World Cup and there will be no "healing" / sweeping under carpets until we see Farrell pick on form and implement a sea change in how we approach the games. I have heard and read that has already happened, so at least that is something. Apparently (and in a way obviously) Farrell shares the same philosophies as Lancaster.

I hope to see players like Ronan Kelleher selected and a more attacking game implemented. Then at least, the disaster of the World Cup can be put into our memory box. I couldn't care less what happens in the 6 Nations as long as form is rewarded and there is a clear change in how we approach our attacking strategy.

aloooof · 13-11-2019 10:48am

Niallof9 wrote: »

INo we weren't. We were good enough to beat Japan but we shat the bed and ended up playing a weakened NZ, whom we put in our possibly our second worst ever world cup performance.

Were NZ weakened? They went pretty full strength, no? Any of the omissions were down to selection rather than weakened through injury, say. Maybe Damian McKenzie, but even then, they had serious options.

Niallof9 wrote: »

Japan being the worst, and Argentina QF had the injuries mitigation. So two of our worst ever performances came in the the 2019 World Cup and there will be no "healing" sweeping under carpets until we see Farrell pick on form and implement a sea change in how we approach the games.

Japan is nowhere near our worst, imo. Georgia in 2007, for example, was a far worse performance. Even against USA in 2011 was pretty poor, a game we won 22-10. That's a game we struggled in. The Russia game this year, which posters have been suggesting we struggled in, was nothing like that.

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 10:51am

aloooof wrote: »

Were NZ weakened? They went pretty full strength, no? Any of the omissions were down to selection rather than weakened through injury, say. Maybe Damian McKenzie, but even then, they had serious options.

Japan is nowhere near our worst, imo. Georgia in 2007, for example, was a far worse performance. Even against USA in 2011 was pretty poor, a game we won 22-10. That's a game we struggled in. The Russia game this year, which posters have been suggesting we struggled in, was nothing like that.

Did you miss their semi final game? It wasn't a vintage NZ side at all and it was largely inexperienced. We are always bleating on about experience and our huge cap numbers, and arguing guys like Kelleher aren't ready or Ryan is too young to captain (even tho drico was same age). Like which is it? Either as a hugely experienced side we should be winning- New Zealand backline with 294 caps to our 436 - or at least accept we are old and tired and in need of a refresh.

I'm not saying we had any right to beat them but accepting defeat as just something that happened is the old Ireland. I thought we had moved beyond that. We have people trying to reframe the narrative that Japan are our equals or even our betters in the skill department. Its utter nonsense.

Imo it is our worst. 2007 stands alone yeah in a way. But it was 12 years ago, it doesn't count.

this was a few weeks back, and already we have people, as predicted, trying to shift the goalposts and talk of healing. On Monday, if we get the four or even three wins in Europe..it will be "Irish rugby is back".

aloooof · 13-11-2019 10:57am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Did you miss their semi final game? It wasn't a vintage NZ side at all and it was largely in experienced. We are always bleating on about experience and arguing guys like Kelleher aren't ready. Like which is it?

So you mean weakened versus previous NZ side's, rather than the side itself was weakened? Cos they selected a pretty much full strength side.

Tbh, the 2011 and 2015 incarnations of the NZ squads were probably the best ever squads to play the game, no side in the world will compare favourably towards them.

Niallof9 wrote: »

Imo it is our worst. 2007 stands alone yeah in a way. But it was 12 years ago, it doesn't count.

It doesn't count? Surely this whole conversation has come about because we've never made a QF, including 2007?

sydthebeat · 13-11-2019 11:00am

awec wrote: »

I think by the time the WC came round, the horse had already bolted in terms of rotating players out. IMO, the changes should have been ringing back in February / March, with real competition for spots being pushed, and we could have arrived in September with an in-form (or at least, more in-form that it was) team.
.

good to see decent discussion without having to descend to the pits of hyperbole like some other posters.

100% agreed on the above.. though its easy to do in hindsight.

its hard not to see the argument that the team that beat NZ 12 months earlier could do it again.... but obviously nothing at all was shown in 2019 to suggest they could. The coaches reverted to conservatism when in hindsight they should have been a bit more experimental.

awec wrote: »

I would add a few more. Stockdale should have been dropped, he has been terrible all year. Conway was the form player here and should have been in. I'd have had Larmour in for Kearney this year. Not bringing Toner was a huge mistake as Henderson is just too inconsistent, and neither Kleyn nor Beirne are good enough.
.

i think this shows our main issue when it comes to it though... we dont have a huge player pool.

we have what, about 130 professional players to choose from?

england have about 1000, france similar.
wales have similar to ireland, but would actually have more of a blood line connection to english players than we would.
Also, obvious rugby in wales is practically their first sport. i think the reason wales have done so well in recent years in comparison to say scotland or france, is purely down to their coaching team... and i can see some barren years ahead for wales because their clubs are a mess.

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 11:01am

sydthebeat wrote: »

good to see decent discussion without having to descend to the pits of hyperbole like some other posters.

100% agreed on the above.. though its easy to do in hindsight.

its hard not to see the argument that the team that beat NZ 12 months earlier could do it again.... but obviously nothing at all was shown in 2019 to suggest they could. The coaches reverted to conservatism when in hindsight they should have been a bit more experimental.

i think this shows our main issue when it comes to it though... we dont have a huge player pool.

we have what, about 130 professional players to choose from?

england have about 1000, france similar.
wales have similar to ireland, but would actually have more of a blood line connection to english players than we would.
Also, obvious rugby in wales is practically their first sport. i think the reason wales have done so well in recent years in comparison to say scotland or france, is purely down to their coaching team... and i can see some barren years ahead for wales because their clubs are a mess.

what are the examples of hyperbole?

and this is hardly hindsight -

https://www.offtheball.com/rugby/andy-dunne-think-no-capacity-express-840185

https://www.the42.ie/matt-williams-ireland-4474065-Feb2019/

https://punditarena.com/rugby/smcmahon/shane-horgan-expectations-ireland-world-cup/

and they have stuff going back to 2016, 2017 etc. Its not hindsight

And now we are down to the numbers excuse.

And thousands of those English players aren't good enough to play in the AIL. Have you seen the standard of some of the championship? Its utter dog****.

We purposefully chose a provincial system. In the mid nineties some argued for AIL clubs in Europe, obviously would have been the wrong call. But if we say we did immediately we have more players.

Our players have some of the best rest periods of any nation, they have great money, and great contract security and sponsorship opportunities.

There's about 172 players across all four provinces, not including the ready made academy players - so about 200. In the AIL top leagues we have at a rough guess 1500 players, obviously all cut adrift, completely sidelined by the IRFU and deemed second class players. We chose a very tight net which controls the quality. But many of them have either gone to semi pro or gone on like Liam Quill. I played with a few lads who could have easily gone pro. One was on the possibles versus Chris Henry on the probables back in the old days. Only one spot, him or Henry and Henry got it. And arguably Henry was the worse player. The spoils for the loser...the slog of the AIL and a captaincy and a ****ty offer from Rotherham for 6k. Rotherham in particular a graveyard for some very talented Irish players.

We don't have enough players playing enough minutes.

ROG on the money here: "I am convinced more than ever we have got to the stage where our players are under-rugbyed (is that a word?).

The local derbies are gone, and with them the bite; the national team has become a disproportionate priority, so where’s the hardness in our players, that durability from playing in real games? There’s no PRO14 relegation, there’s no Six Nations relegation and if someone throws at me ‘neither has New Zealand or Super Rugby’, NZ are streets ahead in their mental as well as physical preparation."

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 11:03am

aloooof wrote: »

So you mean weakened versus previous NZ side's, rather than the side itself was weakened? Cos they selected a pretty much full strength side.

Tbh, the 2011 and 2015 incarnations of the NZ squads were probably the best ever squads to play the game, no side in the world will compare favourably towards them.

It doesn't count? Surely this whole conversation has come about because we've never made a QF, including 2007?

yes, and therefore our mentality should have been along those lines. We didn't target Reece at all for example. Yes i agree with what you say, but still we went out like we were playing that vintage. It was arguably a weaker NZ team than in November but as we are finding out the november wins mean little.

Yes rugby in 2007 was nearly a different sport.

Burkie1203 · 13-11-2019 11:36am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What exactly did you expect her to say?

What exactly do you want the press to say about the players?

Go into their personal lives?

As a fan what would you like to see in the press about Irish rugby players that would keep you happy??

She should say nothing. The media reaction was fairly standard fare. Franno threw out his usual guff but by and large the media stuff was fairly accurate

These are well paid, well looked after professional athletes in a high performance environment Who have produced well below par in 2019. So of course media will react negatively. That goes with the territory. If she doesn't like it she should avoid newspapers and social media for a few weeks.

Clegg · 13-11-2019 12:28pm

I see we're now rehashing arguments from a month ago.

Nice.

Squidgy Black · 13-11-2019 12:29pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

She should say nothing. The media reaction was fairly standard fare. Franno threw out his usual guff but by and large the media stuff was fairly accurate

These are well paid, well looked after professional athletes in a high performance environment Who have produced well below par in 2019. So of course media will react negatively. That goes with the territory. If she doesn't like it she should avoid newspapers and social media for a few weeks.

She definitely shouldn't have said anything, however I would say that I'd imagine her anger/frustration isn't just at the media for their world cup coverage, and probably predates that with the coverage from certain individuals about how CJ shouldn't be playing for Ireland etc. On a personal level, I don't think there's really a financial threshold that would make it easier for you to be constantly seeing your partner be a target for the media, especially given the fact you've uprooted your entire life to join him and moved away from family etc.

Niallof9 · 13-11-2019 12:30pm

true. lets stop the arguments and petty squabbles and begin the healing process.

13-11-2019 12:47pm

awec wrote: »

"It's sport, it's a competition" is a pretty dismissive angle to take on it. Again, it's all too easy and convenient a way to avoid saying anything too negative.

I'm not really sure what you're looking for here? Was RWC2019 humiliating for Ireland? Yes. Is it un-constructive to point that out? I don't think so.

What do you think the reasons were for us going from being really quite excellent in 2019, to pretty bloody rubbish in 2019?

I don't think anyone in team Ireland showed anything close to the type of hubris that would justify calling what transpired humiliating. I felt vicariously humiliated by the Japan result, but I'd never throw that remark at players who have tried their best. We've all tried and failed, we don't need to be reminded of our failure in such terms and it's ultimately going to result in a lot of defensiveness on here (as we've seen). Just my two cents.

As for what went wrong?

It started with England in the six nations.

We were on a high, we had closed out the all blacks and we were in an ideal position a year out from the World Cup.

Then an England team who had been dire through 2018 and who we had dismissed in Twickenham a year prior showed up and caught us cleanly on the hop.

I think had the focus we brought to New Zealand in November been on display in the Aviva we'd have weathered the early onslaught and have had enough composure to close out a win.

Instead we looked properly rattled and became innacurate. This wasn't part of the script. We fell apart in that last quarter in Dublin and I'm firmly of the opinion that this was a catalyst for everything which came later.

The fruits of this loss of confidence were on display against Wales. 2018 was a year where we built confidence and momentum. We didn't suddenly become a bad team, we just started to doubt ourselves. Against Wales that doubt crept in much sooner and we had no composure and never got into the game.

I think losing to England and Wales in the fashion we did, compounded by Munster and Leinster being turned over by Saracens put a lot of doubt into the core international squad, but ultimately it all started with that loss to England and our inability to fight our way back into that game.

By the time we rocked up in Twickenham for the warm ups in hindsight I think our confidence was lower than anyone knew and the subsequent thrashing was representative of the breakdown which had started in February.

The body language of the players that day was the same as we saw in Cardiff a few months earlier and the same as we saw against Japan.

I don't want to throw out glib clichés but ultimately I feel we lost our mojo. Sure the game plan may have been a bit exposed but I think the greater issue was our execution. Inaccuracy can be a result of a lack of preparation but I think with Ireland it was a lack of confidence and subsequent lack of composure.

Once we lost to Japan it was game over. New Zealand getting a pass into the quarters probably gave the squad the excuse I think some of them probably wanted at that stage to get out of dodge. They're miles from home and it's all gone Pete Tong and they don't want to be there anymore.

I think the biggest failure was that six nations England loss and how we dealt with it.

Had we won that game I think we would have been in an entirely different mindset by the end of that tournament and we'd have been able to deal with whatever happened in Twickenham in the warm ups.

It's been said countless times but rugby is often about small margins. That's true for what happens off the pitch aswell.

I think we're a very strong team, we've good depth and Joe is an exceptional coach.

I think we're prone to over thinking things and the prescribed nature of our play style under Joe requires all the working parts to be on song. The collapse of confidence robbed us of the composure required to implement our game and the rest is history.

I'm not sure there is a fix for this but I also don't believe fundamentally there is anything other than circumstance denying us a World Cup semi final. There is context to all of our exits that don't really demonstrate an obvious pattern.

Had a hurricane struck in 2015 and instead of playing France we got a pass and were full strength against Argentina would we be having this conversation?

Context and circumstance.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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