Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Shefwedfan

Dubinusa wrote: »

It's a common denominator though? We play well in off years, for the most part and then we fall short on the big stage.
2015 it was a depth issue and we were left flailing by a superb Pumas.
2011 we beat up Oz and barely fired a shot v Wales
This year was disheartening. We played well once! Otherwise we were rubbish. We were well off the required standards physically and once again, there was no cohesive attacking play. We were pushed around up front and seemed clueless on adapting.
For me, it was J.S who was the problem. He saw what we all saw this year and didn't deviate from a tired, plain game plan.
The lack of ideas and the ability to front up was startling.
But. It's a new day and hopefully a positive signing with A.F.

SA just won the WC with a game plan not that far off Ireland

Wales got to a semi with the game plan used in 2015 and everyone lost the plot after that WC because of that game plan

The SA game plan could be accused to be the most tired as they played the same the last two times they won

This game plan stuff is just people repeating what they heard on tv, something was wrong with the squad, no idea what it was but our big players didn’t perform to a high standard, and before you should Sexton, that was 1-23

Richie_Rich89

Shefwedfan wrote: »

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/england-centre-marchant-to-make-super-rugby-switch-in-ground-breaking-move/

This is what the Irish clubs should be doing, saying if for years now

It would be good for a player's development. But there are probably some hurdles. I think the NZ SR franchises are only allowed a certain number of non-NZers - is it two? Dunno exactly. Plus, what's in it for them? Are they getting a free player, with Harlequins still paying Marchant?

Thornbury's situation is a bit different. Wanganui played in the Heartland Championship, and I think he started off in NZ even lower down than that and then performed well enough to get called up by Wanganui for their campaign that year.

Shefwedfan

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

It would be good for a player's development. But there are probably some hurdles. I think the NZ SR franchises are only allowed a certain number of non-NZers - is it two? Dunno exactly. Plus, what's in it for them? Are they getting a free player, with Harlequins still paying Marchant?

Thornbury's situation is a bit different. Wanganui played in the Heartland Championship, and I think he started off in NZ even lower down than that and then performed well enough to get called up by Wanganui for their campaign that year.

I would look at Aus, give young player time in Super Rugby and take some of the players up to Ireland to earn a wedge....while the players are still available for Aus, otherwise all their players will end up like the lad at Saracens and making himself not available for a WC

sydthebeat

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I would look at Aus, give young player time in Super Rugby and take some of the players up to Ireland to earn a wedge....while the players are still available for Aus, otherwise all their players will end up like the lad at Saracens and making himself not available for a WC

Thers a catch 22 though..

australia are already finding numbers dwindling, and had to enact the Giteau Law to boost their squads over the last 4 years.

Will they want an irish mercenary coming down to take a senior position from "one of their own" ?.. imagine how the aussie richies would react to that one.

a move that we're talking about is really only going to suit an academy player whose club are iffy about offering a full contract... or someone like thornbury who was without a contract and wanted to build back up to one.

as the super rugby season overlaps significantly with the pro14 and European rugby season, its not really an option for a half decent Irish senior player with eyes on an international shirt.... unless extenuating circumstances occur.

realhorrorshow

It would be interesting to see someone like Gavin Coombes or Conor O’Brien do a stint in Super Rugby.

Dubinusa

Shefwedfan wrote: »

SA just won the WC with a game plan not that far off Ireland

Wales got to a semi with the game plan used in 2015 and everyone lost the plot after that WC because of that game plan

The SA game plan could be accused to be the most tired as they played the same the last two times they won

This game plan stuff is just people repeating what they heard on tv, something was wrong with the squad, no idea what it was but our big players didn’t perform to a high standard, and before you should Sexton, that was 1-23

SA seemed better drilled. They could play from anywhere. Why was our 23 so poor? Are our lads to homesick to compete in distant lands? Is there any reason to support a year long downward spiral? SA were minced by us 2 years ago. They dumped the coach and brought in Rassie...
I think we lacked confidence and seemed unready for top flight rugby. Which of course, is weird as Leinster made it to the Euro final and played great last season. The bulk of the national team comes from Leinster, so why do they look like shyte for Ireland? Munster and Ulster both made the qf's also.
I would say it's the preparation and possibly a lack of confidence in our strategy.

The Lost Sheep

Dubinusa wrote: »

SA seemed better drilled. They could play from anywhere. Why was our 23 so poor? Are our lads to homesick to compete in distant lands? Is there any reason to support a year long downward spiral? SA were minced by us 2 years ago. They dumped the coach and brought in Rassie...
I think we lacked confidence and seemed unready for top flight rugby. Which of course, is weird as Leinster made it to the Euro final and played great last season. The bulk of the national team comes from Leinster, so why do they look like shyte for Ireland? Munster and Ulster both made the qf's also.
I would say it's the preparation and possibly a lack of confidence in our strategy.

I think it's ridiculous to be talking about homesickness as that's just nonsense.
Provinces playing well doesnt mean national team will do well. Look at Wales. Care to say how the prep was wrong?
How exactly were we not ready? What specifically?

Neil3030

Shefwedfan wrote: »

SA just won the WC with a game plan not that far off Ireland

Wales got to a semi with the game plan used in 2015 and everyone lost the plot after that WC because of that game plan

The SA game plan could be accused to be the most tired as they played the same the last two times they won

This game plan stuff is just people repeating what they heard on tv, something was wrong with the squad, no idea what it was but our big players didn’t perform to a high standard, and before you should Sexton, that was 1-23

How are the SA and Irish gameplans not that far off?

And how did Wales use the same gameplan as 2015?

Shefwedfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

Thers a catch 22 though..

australia are already finding numbers dwindling, and had to enact the Giteau Law to boost their squads over the last 4 years.

Will they want an irish mercenary coming down to take a senior position from "one of their own" ?.. imagine how the aussie richies would react to that one.

a move that we're talking about is really only going to suit an academy player whose club are iffy about offering a full contract... or someone like thornbury who was without a contract and wanted to build back up to one.

as the super rugby season overlaps significantly with the pro14 and European rugby season, its not really an option for a half decent Irish senior player with eyes on an international shirt.... unless extenuating circumstances occur.

Look at positives not the negatives

Aus rugby is dying, bringing Irish players down with a large Irish expat might increase attendance

Oz players are leaving anyway, let them come to Ireland and earn bigger wages while still in Oz system so to speak

Both Irish and Oz players swap for 1-2 years as well.....

It might not make sense but at this stage Aus rugby will be outside top 10 come 2023

Dubinusa

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I think it's ridiculous to be talking about homesickness as that's just nonsense.
Provinces playing well doesnt mean national team will do well. Look at Wales. Care to say how the prep was wrong?
How exactly were we not ready? What specifically?

Really! Darren Cave mentioned how being away from our comfort zone.
Can you say how the prep was right?
Well, we played like ****. So, I suppose the prep was really good for us to be a non factor, a spectator, so to speak.
But, I guess a grand slam a year ago is not a good springboard to go into a rwc. However, kudos to the boy's for being so well prepped, that they looked like amateurs.

ScissorPaperRock

salmocab wrote: »

Look 2015 was a real freak we lost not just a load of players to injury and suspended, they were almost all our most important players. We might have needed a bit more depth but no team could have lost who we lost and still performed well.
Whatever was wrong this year seems to me to have been a few small things for whatever reasons. I can see merit in Caves thing and also in the Leinster lads not enjoying it, even in leaving someone like Toner behind might cause a bit of a mental issue for some players. A few small things can add up for players at this level I would think.
The quarter final thing is just a series of events that aren’t actually related but people like to make it out to be like some dark magic at play.

Of course they're related. These are not random events. The quarter finals are part of an overall rugby system, of which Irish rugby is also a part. We have failed in each consecutive attempt to get past that stage.

We may be able to point to different factors for each instance, but it's obvious that we've never been adequately prepared for the eventualities that can occur.

awec

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Of course they're related. These are not random events. The quarter finals are part of an overall rugby system, of which Irish rugby is also a part. We have failed in each consecutive attempt to get past that stage.

We may be able to point to different factors for each instance, but it's obvious that we've never been adequately prepared for the eventualities that can occur.

Yea they're definitely related. At the quarter final stage you are starting to play against the other teams that are the best at the tournament, in high pressure, big games.

For whatever reason, we consistently fail to jump this hurdle.

salmocab

awec wrote: »

Yea they're definitely related. At the quarter final stage you are starting to play against the other teams that are the best at the tournament, in high pressure, big games.

For whatever reason, we consistently fail to jump this hurdle.

My point was that the reason we fail to jump that hurdle is different each time. It’s certainly a failure but it’s a series of failures not one systematic thing happening repeatedly.

molloyjh

salmocab wrote: »

My point was that the reason we fail to jump that hurdle is different each time. It’s certainly a failure but it’s a series of failures not one systematic thing happening repeatedly.

Exactly. 2007 was a complete balls up in prep that saw is underperform massively. 2011 was stupid selection for the QF, ignoring that our best performances came with Reddan/Sexton and not Murray/ROG. Both of those were coaching mistakes at those points in time. 2015 was an injury crisis that would have scuppered any team out there. No blame there. I've no idea what happened in this year really, although I do believe had we played France we'd have won.

If there was some systematic issues then we might have something to talk about. There hasn't been that I've seen. Not that that's any consolation.

Richie_Rich89

molloyjh wrote: »

Exactly. 2007 was a complete balls up in prep that saw is underperform massively. 2011 was stupid selection for the QF, ignoring that our best performances came with Reddan/Sexton and not Murray/ROG. Both of those were coaching mistakes at those points in time. 2015 was an injury crisis that would have scuppered any team out there. No blame there. I've no idea what happened in this year really, although I do believe had we played France we'd have won.

If there was some systematic issues then we might have something to talk about. There hasn't been that I've seen. Not that that's any consolation.

Don't think so. Ireland were probably the weakest of the eight quarter-finalists. Seventh or eighth out of eight anyway. Even if they were better on paper they would probably still have found a way to lose. It's what Ireland do in quarter finals.

Dubinusa

Rory Best was interviewed and said it was pressure. I just saw the article and read some of it.
There was a lot of pressure on them. But that being said, they're pro rugby players!
More troubling is the fact they struggled all year and couldn't turn it around.
We all post our opinions and put forward our reasons for our demise but, it was an entire year of failing to match up against the better sides.
Anyway, it's just history now.

Riskymove

Dubinusa wrote: »

There was a lot of pressure on them. But that being said, they're pro rugby players!
.

Indeed and so are all the others

Are NZ, AUS etc. not under pressure?

Niallof9

molloyjh wrote: »

Exactly. 2007 was a complete balls up in prep that saw is underperform massively. 2011 was stupid selection for the QF, ignoring that our best performances came with Reddan/Sexton and not Murray/ROG. Both of those were coaching mistakes at those points in time. 2015 was an injury crisis that would have scuppered any team out there. No blame there. I've no idea what happened in this year really, although I do believe had we played France we'd have won.

If there was some systematic issues then we might have something to talk about. There hasn't been that I've seen. Not that that's any consolation.

There is quite clearly a systematic reason we are failing. One of the main factors is picking players out of form, undroppables, placing too much faith in meaningless factors. Add that to the stupid decisions such as in 07 and 11 and its clear.

Take the Kelleher thing that is starting to pop up. we have people talking it all down. the guy is clearly an amazing prospect. there should be no qualms about naming him in the 6 Nations squad. None. If we fail consistently to reward players who are performing then we are doomed forever.

The Lost Sheep

Dubinusa wrote: »

Really! Darren Cave mentioned how being away from our comfort zone.
Can you say how the prep was right?
Well, we played like ****. So, I suppose the prep was really good for us to be a non factor, a spectator, so to speak.
But, I guess a grand slam a year ago is not a good springboard to go into a rwc. However, kudos to the boy's for being so well prepped, that they looked like amateurs.

and you can show anything that prep was so wrong. Other than going just look at results? If so obvious then I am sure you can show exactly what the team should have done different. And trying to say a grand slam isnt a good springboard. What nonsense is that?

salmocab wrote: »

My point was that the reason we fail to jump that hurdle is different each time. It’s certainly a failure but it’s a series of failures not one systematic thing happening repeatedly.

there is something systematic considering we have this focus and our player welfare management etc is built around getting best from players for national side especially in world cup and we havent fired shot in so many tournaments

jacothelad

I wonder do our players lose their edge by playing so few games in continuity. I understand the theory of limiting players exposure to game time...I think they would benefit from playing more than they do. Let's face it, mollycoddling them hasn't prevented lots of injuries. Competition is a great way to stay sharp...certainly better than swanning about in the stand. :D

Maybe they lose the driven edge they need after one or two games of high intensity effort.

mogwai81

jacothelad wrote: »

I wonder do our players lose their edge by playing so few games in continuity. I understand the theory of limiting players exposure to game time...I think they would benefit from playing more than they do. Let's face it, mollycoddling them hasn't prevented lots of injuries. Competition is a great way to stay sharp...certainly better than swanning about in the stand. :D

Maybe they lose the driven edge they need after one or two games of high intensity effort.

I definitely agree regarding the lack of continuity. I know are player welfare system is the envy of most countries, but I always wondered how are top players can play two or three games in a row and then get a rest and be expected to deal with a World Cup.
I worry they are too used to playing one or two games in a row and then get a break.

Downlinz

jacothelad wrote: »

I wonder do our players lose their edge by playing so few games in continuity. I understand the theory of limiting players exposure to game time...I think they would benefit from playing more than they do. Let's face it, mollycoddling them hasn't prevented lots of injuries. Competition is a great way to stay sharp...certainly better than swanning about in the stand. :D

Maybe they lose the driven edge they need after one or two games of high intensity effort.

I think so, even the Six Nations has 5 games played over 7 weeks and November internationals usually has a rotation week with a tier 2 side. There's no level where our internationals are ever really competing for more than two weekends in a row.

Dubinusa

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

and you can show anything that prep was so wrong. Other than going just look at results? If so obvious then I am sure you can show exactly what the team should have done different. And trying to say a grand slam isnt a good springboard. What nonsense is that?

there is something systematic considering we have this focus and our player welfare management etc is built around getting best from players for national side especially in world cup and we havent fired shot in so many tournaments

You misread my meaning of the grand slam. Of course it's a great springboard for the rwc. My point is, we fell to **** all year. Regardless of prep etc.
Who knows why we failed ? Just the coaches and the players!
It was a disheartening rwc and there should be no excuse. We were awful. We were 2nd best in the collisions against NZ. We were atrocious.

Shefwedfan

SO have we confirmed yet what went wrong in WC? :-)

Dubinusa

Shefwedfan wrote: »

SO have we confirmed yet what went wrong in WC? :-)

Yes!! We should have hired Benny Hill as the skills coach Albus Dumbledore as defense and Eamonn Dunphy as our psyche coach. Simple really! Schmidders just didn't see it!

The Rape of Lucretia

Shefwedfan wrote: »

SO have we confirmed yet what went wrong in WC? :-)

We have. And its that nothing went wrong.
It was always going to come down to one game against a team who are normally better than us, and were likely to beat us. So no surprise at the result. Nothing went wrong. Nothing malfunctioned. No systemic fault.
The result was as all should have expected. And that was even with the benefit of losing a group game to ensure we avoided the Africans and got a shot at the ABs who we had a better chance of beating. But still odds against. And we lost.
So it all went right really.

blinding

Dubinusa wrote: »

Yes!! We should have hired Benny Hill as the skills coach Albus Dumbledore as defense and Eamonn Dunphy as our psyche coach. Simple really! Schmidders just didn't see it!

It probably wouldn’t have been any worse . The players would probably step up .

Niallof9

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

We have. And its that nothing went wrong.
It was always going to come down to one game against a team who are normally better than us, and were likely to beat us. So no surprise at the result. Nothing went wrong. Nothing malfunctioned. No systemic fault.
The result was as all should have expected. And that was even with the benefit of losing a group game to ensure we avoided the Africans and got a shot at the ABs who we had a better chance of beating. But still odds against. And we lost.
So it all went right really.

:rolleyes: there are no words

Sure you should head into the IRFU offices with your theory, save the IRFU time and money doing their stupid report...

Lack of gameplan, no evolution in our play, picking players out of form, dropping stalwarts, picking injured players. Loads went wrong. Loads. And its not hindssight either plenty of us were saying this and experts too.

and before anybody saids, Saffers played a similar game but added loads of different options and threats than we did. Offloads, counter attacking, transition attacks.

salmocab

Niallof9 wrote: »

:rolleyes: there are no words

Sure you should head into the IRFU offices with your theory, save the IRFU time and money doing their stupid report...

Lack of gameplan, no evolution in our play, picking players out of form, dropping stalwarts, picking injured players. Loads went wrong. Loads. And its not hindssight either plenty of us were saying this and experts too.

and before anybody saids, Saffers played a similar game but added loads of different options and threats than we did. Offloads, counter attacking, transition attacks.

Sometimes you should know who your replying to and just not bother

Richie_Rich89

It's hard to escape the feeling that it's a mindset thing. If you look at each of the failures in detail, then it's different things going wrong every four years. But at a very basic level, Ireland just haven't been good enough on the day to win a World Cup quarter-final. Often they've been beaten out the gate by the team that goes on to finish fourth, so they're a long way off, truth be told. I'd say the mental side of things plays a big part in this.

When the players pull on an Irish jumper, I'd say their mindset is influenced a lot by how they think of Ireland as a country in general on the world stage. And that's all plucky underdog stuff and being subjugated by "the Brits" for 800 years, so it's sort of brave but futile resistance against a far more powerful opposition, and ultimately, deep down, you expect to lose because that's your place.

I think they should try to get super-confident, bordering on arrogant, players into the spine of the team to try to overcome this. Max Deegan and Craig Casey are the only two that spring to mind straight off. Stockdale too, maybe. Even then it's going to be difficult for them not to get burdened down by the prevailing mindset.