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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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irishbucsfan

I think people are vastly, vastly overrating the importance of the media.

Or maybe I'm wrong and we should bring back Joe, but the IRFU should fire the sports editor of the irish times!

Niallof9

Media is hugely important. Top level sport doesn't exist without it. You can see it at all times in every sport in the World every day of the week. Take VAR in the soccer, how else would that message that its not working get out there? Then you have individuals and bodies feeding off the cycle, Stockdale saids he reads the press. The English RFU seem to have a much better grasp of how effective PR and in house media can work. Their rising sons doc was literally all access and fed the beast. Players love it and do feed off it, both praise and criticism. Anything else is a lie.

The media spin is already turning. Three positive stories - thornley, Luke, POM all feeding into it. Framing the narrative of we're back all controlled by professional PR people provincially and in the IRFU. fair enough i suppose. It can't be a wake all season.

The Irish players are molly coddled and indulged by a small press pack who need access. Thornley is the worst. The healing in an international context hasn't begun at all. It will only begin when Farrell names a first 6 Nations squad based on who is playing well this season. I think we are now past the point of saying a good weekend in the champions cup means anything other than each province doing well in their own right.

We need better analysis of the problems. I think if we see a same old same old tired squad for the Six Nations, the media has a role in calling that out.

Farrell will be under immediate pressure, he has none of the goodwill Joe built with Leinster before taking on the Irish job. And as a few journos have admitted afterwards they were tired of much of Joe's **** housing in the press.

Former Former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think people are vastly, vastly overrating the importance of the media.

Or maybe I'm wrong and we should bring back Joe, but the IRFU should fire the sports editor of the irish times!

In fairness, it's widely acknowledged that Ruairí O'Connor and Brent Pope were the main reasons we won the grand slam in 2018, so it's only fair that they take some of the blame now.

Look, the last month has been a competition to see who can be the angriest about the RWC and who can be the most smug in saying "I told you so".

What's happening now is that we've exhausted all the ways to be a dick about the fans, the actual rugby team and the coach, so a new target is needed. "The media" is always a favourite.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

In fairness, it's widely acknowledged that Ruairí O'Connor and Brent Pope were the main reasons we won the grand slam in 2018, so it's only fair that they take some of the blame now.

Look, the last month has been a competition to see who can be the angriest about the RWC and who can be the most smug in saying "I told you so".

What's happening now is that we've exhausted all the ways to be a dick about the fans, the actual rugby team and the coach, so a new target is needed. "The media" is always a favourite.

Ha!

I think if anything the past month has been a competition among certain posters in trying to convince us all that you can’t blame the coaches, or the players, or the IRFU, that there’s nothing really to complain about, and how real fans don’t take issue with anything that happened, and sure the World Cup only happens every 4 years anyway.

Take your sarcastic, patronising bollocks somewhere else, if you’re not interested in discussion about Ireland, which is going to include criticism of Ireland, then I reckon this thread is not for you.

awec

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I think Standers wife gave a small insight into the mentality maybe. Criticising media coverage of their performances after a pretty abysmal RWC on the back of a very poor 6n.

Wouldn't read too much into that, but her comments were seriously out of touch. A dose of reality required for her.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Ha!

I think if anything the past month has been a competition among certain posters in trying to convince us all that you can’t blame the coaches, or the players, or the IRFU, that there’s nothing really to complain about, and how real fans don’t take issue with anything that happened, and sure the World Cup only happens every 4 years anyway.

Take your sarcastic, patronising bollocks somewhere else, if you’re not interested in discussion about Ireland, which is going to include criticism of Ireland, then I reckon this thread is not for you.

Can you give us some example of these posts or posters?

Obviously it’s the players and coaches fault. That’s completely undeniable by anyone but I haven’t seen anyone come close to saying that.

The idea it’s the fault of the fans or the media is absolute and utter nonsense just spread around either by people who are incredibly bitter or who have a personal problem with rugby people.

Niallof9

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can you give us some example of these posts or posters?

there has been loads.

The media has hyped it up. Take the Indo knives are out, but for years they were lapping it up. A joke. Lots of fans hyping up wins, shouting down any people who suggested that it wasn't going to work in a World Cup.

I even seem to remeber reading people like yourself saying form doesn't matter. Really?

Former Former

awec wrote: »

Ha!

I think if anything the past month has been a competition among certain posters in trying to convince us all that you can’t blame the coaches, or the players, or the IRFU, that there’s nothing really to complain about, and how real fans don’t take issue with anything that happened, and sure the World Cup only happens every 4 years anyway.

Take your sarcastic, patronising bollocks somewhere else, if you’re not interested in discussion about Ireland, which is going to include criticism of Ireland, then I reckon this thread is not for you.

I am very interested in discussion about Ireland and would love to engage in same. I didn't agree with the initial squad selection or team selection during the tournament and was very unhappy with the performances of many players. I'd love to discuss all of that.

However, when any rational discussion of what went wrong is shouted down by you and others telling us we're making excuses and giving them a free pass, then sarcastic bollocks becomes the only appropriate response.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can you give us some example of these posts or posters?

Obviously it’s the players and coaches fault. That’s completely undeniable by anyone but I haven’t seen anyone come close to saying that.

The idea it’s the fault of the fans or the media is absolute and utter nonsense just spread around either by people who are incredibly bitter or who have a personal problem with rugby people.

I think people are taking issue with a cringeworthy Thornley article that suggests some poxy pro14 interpro matches are the beginning of some "healing process" for another world cup disaster.

It's vacuous bollocks from our rugby media, as if results in the tin pot league that our clubs play in really mitigates anything that's happened in 2019 for Ireland.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

I am very interested in discussion about Ireland and would love to engage in same. I didn't agree with the initial squad selection or team selection during the tournament and was very unhappy with the performances of many players. I'd love to discuss all of that.

However, when any rational discussion of what went wrong is shouted down by you and others telling us we're making excuses and giving them a free pass, then sarcastic bollocks becomes the only appropriate response.

I didn't shout down any rational discussion. I did shout down this talk of inferior players, how such and such a player is just miles better so therefore could not possibly be dropped, how player X was phenomenal 12 months ago therefore could not possibly be rotated, how you cannot prove beyond all reasonable doubt that rotating players works therefore the only sensible thing is not to rotate players etc etc etc.

But seriously, please do discuss what you were unhappy about, I would genuinely like to read it. What selections did you disagree with?

sydthebeat

Why do people need to go to the polar end oh hyperbole to make their point?

It only serves to make the point look a bit ridiculous.

The arguments are better served when they stay balanced.

The players went their wanting to win the World Cup. They didn't. They were beaten in the quarter finals.

If they had have beaten russia by 100-0 it would have made no difference to us being beaten by NZ.. So I've no idea why that's been used as some kind of yard stick. We could have seriously struggled against Samoa going down to 14 early on, but we didn't, we played very well in that game and won at a canter. Why isn't that used a yard stick?

The world cup was a failure. The reasons have all been hypothesised at this stage.

Maybe the reason we haven't gotten to a semi final is because we're actually not one of the best four teams in the world??

[Deleted User]

sydthebeat wrote: »

Why do people need to go to the polar end oh hyperbole to make their point?

It only serves to make the point look a bit ridiculous.

The arguments are better served when they stay balanced.

The players went their wanting to win the World Cup. They didn't. They were beaten in the quarter finals.

If they had have beaten russia by 100-0 it would have made no difference to us being beaten by NZ.. So I've no idea why that's been used as some kind of yard stick. We could have seriously struggled against Samoa going down to 14 early on, but we didn't, we played very well in that game and won at a canter. Why isn't that used a yard stick?

The world cup was a failure. The reasons have all been hypothesised at this stage.

Maybe the reason we haven't gotten to a semi final is because we're actually not one of the best four teams in the world??

Just on the bolded bit I'd say boards have done more of that than "the press" and that winds people up. It feels like the media have brushed it under the carpet after their initial reactions.

errlloyd

sydthebeat wrote: »

Maybe the reason we haven't gotten to a semi final is because we're actually not one of the best four teams in the world??

This is basically it. Between world cups we get much more from our players base than anyone else (thought good management, structures and availability). During world cups we get the same from our player base as everyone else. People think South Africa / Australia / France etc peak at the world cup are missing the more obvious explanation - that they trough the rest of the time. Ultimately when the playing field is level we struggle to match up.

awec

sydthebeat wrote: »

Why do people need to go to the polar end oh hyperbole to make their point?

It only serves to make the point look a bit ridiculous.

The arguments are better served when they stay balanced.

The players went their wanting to win the World Cup. They didn't. They were beaten in the quarter finals.

If they had have beaten russia by 100-0 it would have made no difference to us being beaten by NZ.. So I've no idea why that's been used as some kind of yard stick. We could have seriously struggled against Samoa going down to 14 early on, but we didn't, we played very well in that game and won at a canter. Why isn't that used a yard stick?

The world cup was a failure. The reasons have all been hypothesised at this stage.

Maybe the reason we haven't gotten to a semi final is because we're actually not one of the best four teams in the world??

This is an interesting point.

We clearly were one of the best sides in the world in the very recent past, but was that because we were genuinely one of the best in the world (in which case, we should have done much better at the WC), or was it because while we were going hell for leather trying to win every single game other teams were looking at the bigger picture?

I don't think we can just simply say "we're not one of the best in the world so a semi final is beyond us" because that's too vague. I keep using Wales as an example, their clubs are a total joke but they continually out-perform us in WCs. Do they have better players than us?

Obviously the rankings are all relative, so while we were flying high then maybe the argument can be made that other teams were at a low, in which case we're possibly guilty of blowing smoke up our own arses and over-egging the achievements of this team.

aloooof

awec wrote: »

I think people are taking issue with a cringeworthy Thornley article that suggests some poxy pro14 interpro matches are the beginning of some "healing process" for another world cup disaster.

It's vacuous bollocks from our rugby media, as if results in the tin pot league that our clubs play in really mitigates anything that's happened in 2019 for Ireland.

I think people are reading too much into the headline (which Thornley very likely didn't pick). The vast majority of the article is a preview of this weekends Heineken Cup games. There really just seems to be one line that's causing issue:

These are early days in Irish rugby’s redemption story, and Murray’s turnover penalty was only a small cameo in the greater scheme of things, but maybe it also typified promising signs that the healing process has begun.

He's admittedly giving it too much importance to one turnover penalty, but to me it's also an allusion to Conor Murray's long-term neck injury improving, after he won a jackal penalty, which was referred to earlier in the article.

awec

connemara man wrote: »

Just on the bolded bit I'd say boards have done more of that than "the press" and that winds people up. It feels like the media have brushed it under the carpet after their initial reactions.

Agreed. And I don't think it's a vindictive thing for the most part (though there certainly are vindictive elements).

People do want to see some well thought out, critique of Irish Rugby, and some thinking as to why we are consistent losers in the world cup.

Unfortunately, our rugby press is too afraid of losing their cosy access to the team, of writing anything too scathing, so we get the vacuous bollocks that we get which just pretends like nothing too bad happened. Let's just move on and forget about it.

Nobody is suggesting the press are responsible for results, but it is very unfortunate that the rugby press in Ireland is so polar, either we have the timid nonsense from the main papers or Kinsella's anorak bollocks, or we have the crazed lunatic brazilian who doesn't even remotely understand the sport. Nothing in between.

awec

aloooof wrote: »

I think people are reading too much into the headline (which Thornley very likely didn't pick). The vast majority of the article is a preview of this weekends Heineken Cup games. There really just seems to be one line that's causing issue:

He's admittedly giving it too much importance to one turnover penalty, but to me it's also an allusion to Conor Murray's long-term neck injury improving, after he won a jackal penalty, which was referred to earlier in the article.

Honestly the HEC makes no difference to me this weekend.

The only way to heal Ireland's world cup hurt is to finally break this fecking glass ceiling and get to that damn semi final. 4 more years we wait.

Niallof9

awec wrote: »

I think people are taking issue with a cringeworthy Thornley article that suggests some poxy pro14 interpro matches are the beginning of some "healing process" for another world cup disaster.

It's vacuous bollocks from our rugby media, as if results in the tin pot league that our clubs play in really mitigates anything that's happened in 2019 for Ireland.

also in which our main "stars" rarely play which is also another fallacy that needs to be called out. I'd argue Andy Dunne is quite fair, unfortunately his middling career maybe hampers him as he's neither had the career to talk,and is neither a journo.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

also in which our main "stars" rarely play which is also another fallacy that needs to be called out

I don't think I've seen anyone claim otherwise??

Niallof9

sydthebeat wrote: »

Why do people need to go to the polar end oh hyperbole to make their point?

It only serves to make the point look a bit ridiculous.

The arguments are better served when they stay balanced.

The players went their wanting to win the World Cup. They didn't. They were beaten in the quarter finals.

If they had have beaten russia by 100-0 it would have made no difference to us being beaten by NZ.. So I've no idea why that's been used as some kind of yard stick. We could have seriously struggled against Samoa going down to 14 early on, but we didn't, we played very well in that game and won at a canter. Why isn't that used a yard stick?

The world cup was a failure. The reasons have all been hypothesised at this stage.

Maybe the reason we haven't gotten to a semi final is because we're actually not one of the best four teams in the world??

Ignore the obvious elephant in the room why don't you. Russia doesn't matter, NZ doesn't matter.

Your last bit is the whole point of it tho. Stop the hype then, stop the talk, stop the reviews, stop releasing dvds, stop all the bull**** around everything. If all four provinces win this weekend, who cares that has no bearing on the Irish rugby team. the media, fans, cheerleaders should just take it one game at a time.

Then people like myself would have less of an issue. But we have the constant cycle of boom, bust and for me and it seems like others its so so tiring.

For a small example we already have people talking down Kelleher. Absolutely mind boggling. Particularly so when Joe actually started rewarding young players.

[Deleted User]

Ah lads. Some of this guff I'd expect from certain posters but I'm genuinely surprised at the tone here.

The Ireland team, coaching staff and support staff that went to the world cup are all top drawer, hard working and proven individuals.

Collectively they got it wrong. You can do everything to best practice in preparation for a contest and ultimately still get it wrong. Whatever else happened in Japan, a lack of hard work and effort was not the cause. It's certainly humiliating for the players (no doubt to a man they feel that) but I'm not sure what value there is in pointing that out.

It's sport. It's a competition. A year out we looked in good shape and on the run in things started to go against us. There will be some big reasons for this and countless small ones. We've had an influx of posters here purely to take joy in our disappointment, we're probably just about getting to the point where an actual discussion can take place as to the fundamental breakdown that happened with the Irish team in 2019 but this defensiveness and mud slinging and talk of humiliation is going to continue to sideline any constructive discussion.

Have barely set foot in the any of the national team threads since the Japan game and reading the last few pages provides plenty of examples why.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

I don't think I've seen anyone claim otherwise??

People, fans, players have claimed our player welfare system is the envy of the World. Yet we went to the World CUp with two injured players and alot of tired bodies.

Imo our players play too few games/minutes as well as damaging the integrity of the pro 14. It also leads to the false form barometers and ringfenced contracts based on a few Champions Cup games and the cycle and hype continues.

Niallof9

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah lads. Some of this guff I'd expect from certain posters but I'm genuinely surprised at the tone here.

Have barely set foot in the any of the national team threads since the Japan game and reading the last few pages provides plenty of examples why.

and yet we just had somebody argue that no posters have denied our problems exist etc....

Sure just ignore the issues like you've been doing...

and if the views don't align with your own best to ignore. is that right?

the only guff so far has been the above.

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

People do want to see some well thought out, critique of Irish Rugby, and some thinking as to why we are consistent losers in the world cup.
.

i think its been suggested by (i think it was brian moore first, then others like darren cave... and something which has been said here loads of times).. that the main reason for our RWC failures compared to our peaks during the cycle is because of our access to our top level players (in regard to conditioning, welfare etc) being greater than other countries.

however when the RWC rolls around everyone has generally the same access, so our point of difference is negated.
as an extension of this, look what japan were able to do with practically full year of access to its players to hone them

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah lads. Some of this guff I'd expect from certain posters but I'm genuinely surprised at the tone here.

The Ireland team, coaching staff and support staff that went to the world cup are all top drawer, hard working and proven individuals.

Collectively they got it wrong. You can do everything to best practice in preparation for a contest and ultimately still get it wrong. Whatever else happened in Japan, a lack of hard work and effort was not the cause. It's certainly humiliating for the players (no doubt to a man they feel that) but I'm not sure what value there is in pointing that out.

It's sport. It's a competition. A year out we looked in good shape and on the run in things started to go against us. There will be some big reasons for this and countless small ones. We've had an influx of posters here purely to take joy in our disappointment, we're probably just about getting to the point where an actual discussion can take place as to the fundamental breakdown that happened with the Irish team in 2019 but this defensiveness and mud slinging and talk of humiliation is going to continue to sideline any constructive discussion.

Have barely set foot in the any of the national team threads since the Japan game and reading the last few pages provides plenty of examples why.

"It's sport, it's a competition" is a pretty dismissive angle to take on it. Again, it's all too easy and convenient a way to avoid saying anything too negative.

I'm not really sure what you're looking for here? Was RWC2019 humiliating for Ireland? Yes. Is it un-constructive to point that out? I don't think so.

What do you think the reasons were for us going from being really quite excellent in 2019, to pretty bloody rubbish in 2019?

awec

sydthebeat wrote: »

i think its been suggested by (i think it was brian moore first, then others like darren cave... and something which has been said here loads of times).. that the main reason for our RWC failures compared to our peaks during the cycle is because of our access to our top level players (in regard to conditioning, welfare etc) being greater than other countries.

however when the RWC rolls around everyone has generally the same access, so our point of difference is negated.
as an extension of this, look what japan were able to do with practically full year of access to its players to hone them

Doesn't this suggest then that our achievements in the in-between years, while certainly notable and deserving of high praise, also must be caveated with the fact that our competition is possibly not going at it as full throttle as we are?

So, like the second point I made somewhere in one of my posts above, maybe we really are guilty of blowing smoke up our own arses a bit too much, and overdoing it on our achievements in the in-between years.

So I guess the question is what can we do to fix this? Because I really don't want the answer to be that we just can't beat these teams when they decide they really want to have a go at it.

Former Former

awec wrote: »

But seriously, please do discuss what you were unhappy about, I would genuinely like to read it. What selections did you disagree with?

I didn't agree with Kleyn and Beirne from the off and nothing we saw in Japan changed my mind.

It was increasingly obvious that Best was done and should have got the D'Arcy treatment, either before or during the tournament.

Henshaw should have been sent home halfway through the pools.

But ultimately selection didn't really matter. Would Toner, N Scannell or C Farrell have made any difference? No. That's our problem, we just don't have the squad depth we need.

So what did go wrong? The Japanese result got inside our heads IMO. It's long forgotten that for 20 minutes, it looked like we would blow them away but we got a couple of unlucky breaks and we don't have the on-field leadership to right the ship when things went awry.

So the pressure piles on. By the time we get to the NZ game, we were already beaten but still, you can't legislate for some of the stuff we saw. Sexton missing touch twice, then Carbery comes on and does likewise?

In the end of it all, we missed our window. Key players lost form or got too old and their potential replacements weren't good enough. We're always going to be subject to cyclical changes in squad quality and this RWC came at a trough.

Joe could have gambled on lesser players hitting the form of their lives, instead he hoped that better players would come good. It didn't pan out but I don't think the alternative option would have helped.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

People, fans, players have claimed our player welfare system is the envy of the World. Yet we went to the World CUp with two injured players and alot of tired bodies.

Imo our players play too few games/minutes as well as damaging the integrity of the pro 14. It also leads to the false form barometers and ringfenced contracts based on a few Champions Cup games and the cycle and hype continues.

Fair enough, but all of that is different from what you seemed to be implying above (and what I replied to).

Riskymove

Originally Posted by sydthebeat View Post

Maybe the reason we haven't gotten to a semi final is because we're actually not one of the best four teams in the world??

I think this oversimplifies it, not all QFs consist of 1 top 4 team and someone else so you don't always have to beat a top 4 team to make the SF

I don't think anyone would claim that Scotland or Argentina were one of the top 4 teams when they managed to win a QF.

In any event, imo, it is not simply the fact that we have failed to win a QF but the particularly poor performances that have resulted in us hardly ever being in with a chance of winning the QF that is the issue

The QF has generally been an awful performance regardless of whether we have been in form in the pool stage or not

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

Fair enough, but all of that is different from what you seemed to be implying above (and what I replied to).

Ok i should have said the fallacy of our system being the envy of the World, when recently it has proven to be anything but