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Do you ever win with HR?

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  • 08-11-2019 3:00am
    #1
    ricicle
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭


    Hi I am on a fixed term contract.

    I have been signed off work from the company doctor over a report to HR over concerns for my welfare- they will not provide me with written confirmation of what these concerns are but want a report from my GP and Psychiatrist I am fit to work.

    I provided these but due to administrative errors they were not recieved in time but I could prove I sent them in on time,

    They will not accept my Gp report as she said she is unable to say if I am fit to work as I am under the care of a psychiatrist for my mental health and she has no up to date report- I couldn’t get an appointment until after Christmas.

    The psychiatrist couldn’t see me but filled in the form saying I was fit to work after a phone call with me.They did not accept this form as he had not filled in the date seen section,

    They also advised it was incorrectly dated and told me I had failed to provide the requested information on time and would be in touch, i sent them a picture proving the date was correct and they didn’t even acknowledge their error.

    They advised me I would be paid in full by them and then I got a letter regarding social welfare.

    I raised concerns that confidential information was shared and this was ignored,

    A letter from the company doctor says It would be an unreasonable health and safety risk to x colleagues should she return to work and exhibit the same behaviour"

    I don’t know what behavior I have displayed. I Told my manager I was taking an early lunch and I went to a meeting room for a bit of a cry, she followed me and told me anything I said would go no further, I told her about some family issues, and feeling down. She sent me home even though I didn’t want to go.

    I had a bereavement on the sunday and advised my manager I would not be in on Monday, And on the Monday I got a call from HR saying I was being signed off indefinitely over Friday.

    She would not tell me why but I was only able to say “you are attending pieta house”. surely they cannot sign me off for that?

    I asked my manager what she said to Hr and she denied saying anything, but then how did they know about pieta house?

    HR were able to tell me that they had not been informed there was any issues in my family. So I don’t know what has been said

    I asked the HR manager on the phone did I have to see the company doctor or would a phone call do and she said “so now your refusing to see the company doctor”

    I have sent numerous emails asking for an explanation as to why I was told incorrect information, about my data breach concerns and other issues. My emails get ignored

    I feel like they are making me jump through hoops because I have a mental illness. I used to work in this company years ago and I have a great record. Which is why they took me back, but I didn’t have mental health issues then. My work has never been questioned, stats are good etc,

    Is it even worth perusing this legally, do you ever win against HR?

    Thanks

    R


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    #2
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,240 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Why would you? It reads like they’re acting with your best interests in mind, while following their own policies to the letter. Why not work with them? What would be the point of a legal solution?


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    #3
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    OP - go get independent / professional advice asap. PR are there for the company at best. Make sure to have copies of all correspondence at hand. Then take care of yourself and your health. Your GP etc will help if you need time off etc. Best of luck with it.


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    #4
    John Hutton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    OP, it sounds like they want rid of you.

    To be honest I think you would be better off elsewhere seen as the company are being so unsupportive and nasty.

    They are wrong, if all that happened is that you told your manager that you have some mental health issues and had a bit of a cry and the next thing they are doing is making you jump through impossible hoops and being obtuse about it? And not telling you why? So they are saying you are unfit to work because of x but won't tell you what x is? That's a joke and is very unfair treatment.

    Are you in a union? You need some professional advice here.

    You also need to look after your health too OP, God bless you and don't be afraid to seek support during a difficult time like this.


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    #5
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,147 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    The company is requesting confirmation that the op is fit and able to return to work, as is proper if the welfare of both the op and other employees has to be considered. This is a H&S issue.

    To date, it appears the op does not have confirmation from her psychiatrist that she is fit to return to work, once she has, the employer can have no objection on H&S grounds. The OP needs that letter, op, if you are having to wait for an appointment in the Public Health Service, you might want to consider getting a private appointment, you will need your records from your usual clinician in order for the new one to familiarise him/herself with your condition.

    Get the letter, go back to work. If the company suspect you are at risk of harm to yourself or others (a mention of Pieta House would understandably cause concern) by returning to work, it would be negligent of them to allow you to without confirmation from a medical expert that it is safe to do so.


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    #6
    whomitconcerns
    Registered Users Posts: 4,319 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    I fought with HR many times. But if they have reasonable suspicion that you are not fit to return to work for your own and others health and wellbeing, they would be right.

    It may not look it but in this case they are probably right. And if they are not, get the clear unequivocal letter from the doctor to say so. Problem solved


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    #7
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,740 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    ricicle wrote: »
    The psychiatrist couldn’t see me but filled in the form saying I was fit to work after a phone call with me.They did not accept this form as he had not filled in the date seen section,

    They also advised it was incorrectly dated and told me I had failed to provide the requested information on time and would be in touch, i sent them a picture proving the date was correct and they didn’t even acknowledge their error.

    ...

    I don’t know what behavior I have displayed. I Told my manager I was taking an early lunch and I went to a meeting room for a bit of a cry, she followed me and told me anything I said would go no further, I told her about some family issues, and feeling down. She sent me home even though I didn’t want to go.

    ....

    She would not tell me why but I was only able to say “you are attending pieta house”. surely they cannot sign me off for that?


    I asked the HR manager on the phone did I have to see the company doctor or would a phone call do and she said “so now your refusing to see the company doctor”

    The company have to provide a safe working environment for both you AND their other employees. It sounds like the symptoms of your illness are (at risk of) making the workplace unsafe for your colleagues. So the company is being cautious.

    There was no data breach: your manager was a fool for saying anything said would go no further. It would be totally wrong and unsafe for them not to seek professional advice from HR (and if necessary from others, eg mental health professionals, or the guards if there is a crisis) - and in seeking this advice they needed to provide facts about what they have seen and heard.

    (And in general, anything you say to you manager may be shared with both HR and your manager's manager.)

    You cannot have sent a picture proving the date was correct, given that the psychiatrist did not fill in the date-seen.



    You said that the company is paying you. In this case, I don't see that they're being anything other than cautious about your health, and that of their other employees. Use the time productively. And see the company doctor!


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    #8
    Hoboo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,524 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    The company doctor has determined you're not fit for work? Did you even see the company doctor? You don't mention it.

    If yes, then it's up to you to see and provide an alternative.

    If no, well without sitting down with you for an hour and going through the detail, it's impossible to offer advice, other than speak to an employment law professional (don't bother with a general solicitor). If you're part of a union, use them.

    Also, get your ducks in a row. Record every conversation the second you get off the phone, print every email, keep dates, times, everything in a diary. Clarify what people mean if t's not clear and record what they said they meant.

    Contract & employee handbook should already be given. Get a copy of their h&s policy, and their EAP if they have one.

    I wouldn't be worried anyhow, mental health puts the fear of God into people who haven't experienced or worked with someone who manages it, they're afraid of their lives to do something wrong so follow everything to the law. Duty of care to both you and colleagues is paramount, sounds to me like they have an EAP in place. A bit more communication from both sides might help the situation. Best of luck.


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    #9
    ricicle
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    endacl wrote: »
    Why would you? It reads like they’re acting with your best interests in mind, while following their own policies to the letter. Why not work with them? What would be the point of a legal solution?

    Signing someone off for crying? Saying they were getting help? Not informing HR about people being terminally ill in their family but saying I was attending pieta house- which means I am getting counselling. I was also told on the phone “so you are refusing to see the company doctor” when I asked for a phone call to speed things up, surely the doctor can even say why I am off


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    #10
    ricicle
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    Dav010 wrote: »
    The company is requesting confirmation that the op is fit and able to return to work, as is proper if the welfare of both the op and other employees has to be considered. This is a H&S issue.

    To date, it appears the op does not have confirmation from her psychiatrist that she is fit to return to work, once she has, the employer can have no objection on H&S grounds. The OP needs that letter, op, if you are having to wait for an appointment in the Public Health Service, you might want to consider getting a private appointment, you will need your records from your usual clinician in order for the new one to familiarise him/herself with your condition.

    Get the letter, go back to work. If the company suspect you are at risk of harm to yourself or others (a mention of Pieta House would understandably cause concern) by returning to work, it would be negligent of them to allow you to without confirmation from a medical expert that it is safe to do so.

    The psychiatrist said I was fit to work on the back of a phone call as I couldn’t get an appointment. I only seen him at the start of the month. I tried to go private with VHI but st pats have a 5month waiting list. My GP does not deal with my mental health so she cannot comment on anything other than my appointment at the start of the month. Which they will not accept. Can they really not tell me why I am off? Saying your Going for counselling so you can’t work seems ridiculous


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    #11
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    ricicle wrote: »
    Signing someone off for crying? Saying they were getting help? Not informing HR about people being terminally ill in their family but saying I was attending pieta house- which means I am getting counselling. I was also told on the phone “so you are refusing to see the company doctor” when I asked for a phone call to speed things up, surely the doctor can even say why I am off



    I'm confused. Did you actually see or speak to the Company doctor?


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    #12
    ricicle
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    The company have to provide a safe working environment for both you AND their other employees. It sounds like the symptoms of your illness are (at risk of) making the workplace unsafe for your colleagues. So the company is being cautious.

    There was no data breach: your manager was a fool for saying anything said would go no further. It would be totally wrong and unsafe for them not to seek professional advice from HR (and if necessary from others, eg mental health professionals, or the guards if there is a crisis) - and in seeking this advice they needed to provide facts about what they have seen and heard.

    (And in general, anything you say to you manager may be shared with both HR and your manager's manager.)

    You cannot have sent a picture proving the date was correct, given that the psychiatrist did not fill in the date-seen.



    You said that the company is paying you. In this case, I don't see that they're being anything other than cautious about your health, and that of their other employees. Use the time productively. And see the company doctor!

    Can they really not tell me what causes concern? I took an early lunch to cry! I have a message from HR where it says the information will be treated with the strictest confidence by HR representative and then another lady in HR was able to say it back to me.

    I sent a picture showing the signed and stamped page of the requested form was correct, but they kept saying it was wrong. I asked for clarification whether the stamped and dated page was wrong or supporting documentation page and they kept saying the form page- which was incorrect. It was the supporting documentation! Which they didn’t even ask to be furnished with and so it should be dismissed

    I want to see the company doctor but I need to see my psychiatrist first. I went to the clinic yesterday without an appointment and was seen. I know I shouldn’t have done that but he wrote a further letter saying j was fit and it wasn’t accepted that they want me to have another assessment within 6 weeks!


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    #13
    ricicle
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I'm confused. Did you actually see or speak to the Company doctor?

    No I didn’t see him or speak to him on the phone, I cannot see him until I provide docs from my psychiatrist and GP. Which I did

    Most recently I went to my psychiatrist yesterday without an appointment and he wrote me a letter saying I was fit to work which wasn’t accepted and they want another assessment within 6 weeks


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    #14
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    What I find strange is that you haven't been signed as being unfit for work by a medical practitioner (you have actually been signed fit by your psychiatrist) yet the company have sent you a letter regarding social welfare.

    Are the company organising for you to see their company doctor?


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    #15
    ricicle
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    What I find strange is that you haven't been signed as being unfit for work by a medical practitioner (you have actually been signed fit by your psychiatrist) yet the company have sent you a letter regarding social welfare.

    Are the company organising for you to see their company doctor?

    I am not signed off by my GP or Psychiatrist. I have not seen or spoken to the company doctor but was advised he has deemed me unfit for work and Am not allowed return until I have seen him but I can’t see him until I am fit by my Gp and psychiatrist but I provided the requested documentation. Originally HR said I would be paid in full as long as I submit certs , then they sent me social welfare forms and when I enquired they said I had to apply for pay by social welfare and then work pay the balance


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    #16
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    ricicle wrote: »
    I am not signed off by my GP or Psychiatrist. I have not seen or spoken to the company doctor but was advised he has deemed me unfit for work and Am not allowed return until I have seen him but I can’t see him until I am fit by my Gp and psychiatrist but I provided the requested documentation. Originally HR said I would be paid in full as long as I submit certs , then they sent me social welfare forms and when I enquired they said I had to apply for pay by social welfare and then work pay the balance

    I think you need to contact your work and let them know that you can't apply for social welfare because you are signed fit-to-work. You need a medical cert (unfit for work) to apply for social welfare and you can't get one of these as you are signed fit for work.

    Inform HR that you are fit for work, and have been signed fit for work by your psychiatrist and as such are off work at their request and therefore you expect to be paid in full by them until such time as they let you return to work.


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    #17
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Are you not over reacting a bit. Work are paying you and appear concerned about your health. Just take the time off until you can get the appointment with your doctor and de-stress .


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    #18
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,740 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    ricicle wrote: »
    Originally HR said I would be paid in full as long as I submit certs , then they sent me social welfare forms and when I enquired they said I had to apply for pay by social welfare and then work pay the balance


    Yes, that it how it works in most companies.

    This really is very simple: Go and see the company doctor. S/he will either say you are fit for work or give you a certificate saying you are not fit for work. So either you go back to work, or you fill in the welfare forms.

    You CANNOT do this by phone (I have no idea where you got the idea that was even possible). You need to actually SEE the doctor.


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    #19
    ricicle
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Are you not over reacting a bit. Work are paying you and appear concerned about your health. Just take the time off until you can get the appointment with your doctor and de-stress .

    My issue is I don’t know what concerns were raised other than I said I was going to pieta house.
    I seen my psychiatrist yesterday and he said I am fit to work and it is good for me too.
    They are saying I will be paid partly by them and partly by social welfare. But you need to be signed off by Gp to get social welfare and I’m not signed off by her and company doctor doesn’t do sick certs
    I can’t get anotjer appointment with psychiatrist until Jan 2020, and they have given me 6 weeks to get another assessment.
    My contact is up in January. I was told there is a job there for me but I doubt there is now, I worked for this company a few years ago for 4 years and had no issues until now when mental health comes in to the picture.


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    #20
    Ursus Horribilis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Ursus Horribilis


    You are doing yourself no good by refusing to see the company doctor. You posted before about this. Being evasive is simply drawing attention to your issues and suggests you're hiding something.


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    #21
    ricicle
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Yes, that it how it works in most companies.

    This really is very simple: Go and see the company doctor. S/he will either say you are fit for work or give you a certificate saying you are not fit for work. So either you go back to work, or you fill in the welfare forms.

    You CANNOT do this by phone (I have no idea where you got the idea that was even possible). You need to actually SEE the doctor.

    But I am not signed off by my GP and the company Gp doesn’t do certs so how do I get my full wage?

    I cannot see the company doctor until he is satisfied with the doctor to doctor reports submitted which he hasn’t accepted

    I seen my psychiatrist on October 3rd but they want an assessment after the 18th, I sent a letter from yesterday saying I was fit and not accepted.


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    #22
    ricicle
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    Ursus Horribilis wrote: »
    You are doing yourself no good by refusing to see the company doctor. You posted before about this. Being evasive is simply drawing attention to your issues and suggests you're hiding something.

    I seen the company doctor on October 15th and was signed off fit to work, then on the 21st I was called and told I was signed off due to concerns raised on the 18th, I don’t know what these concerns are. Company doctor has not called me, arranged to meet me or emailed me advising why I am off


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    #23
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    You could explain the situation to your doctor and explain this is causing you a lot of stress and they may sign you unfit to work due to this stress


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    #24
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,147 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    ricicle wrote: »
    I seen the company doctor on October 15th and was signed off fit to work, then on the 21st I was called and told I was signed off due to concerns raised on the 18th, I don’t know what these concerns are. Company doctor has not called me, arranged to meet me or emailed me advising why I am off

    I’m a little confused, I thought you only spoke to your psychiatrist on the phone, if you were assessed in person in his/her rooms and after examination/discussion deemed fit to return to work, surely your psychiatrist can give you an up to date, valid back to work confirmation letter?


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    #25
    ricicle
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I’m a little confused, I thought you only spoke to your psychiatrist on the phone, if you were assessed in person in his/her rooms and after examination/discussion deemed fit to return to work, surely your psychiatrist can give you an up to date, valid back to work confirmation letter?

    I spoke to him on the phone and he sent the requested forms back declaring I was fit to work, this was not accepted so I turned up at his office yesterday without an appointment and he seen me, wrote a letter declaring I am fit to work but this was not accepted, they want a full assessment within 6 weeks


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    #26
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    ricicle wrote: »
    I seen the company doctor on October 15th and was signed off fit to work, then on the 21st I was called and told I was signed off due to concerns raised on the 18th, I don’t know what these concerns are. Company doctor has not called me, arranged to meet me or emailed me advising why I am off

    Very strange for the company doctor to sign you fit after seeing you and then a few days later to then sign you unfit without seeing you.

    You said you are on a fixed term contract. Are you only there a short while?


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    #27
    ricicle
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Very strange for the company doctor to sign you fit after seeing you and then a few days later to then sign you unfit without seeing you.

    You said you are on a fixed term contract. Are you only there a short while?

    He signed me as fit and then because I told my manager I was taking an early lunch and went for a cry. I told my manager I couldn’t talk about it as I was told by the company doctor “talk about mental health again and you will be pulled out of work” but she said it would go no further so I told her about my family issues and pieta house and she reported back to them, but I don’t know what she told them to warrant me being off,

    I’m on a 6 month contract until January, but I was told there was a position there for me after 6 months which I probably won’t be offered now, I used to work for the company from 2012-2015 and I left due to my mental health declining, they are not aware of why I left and then they took me back this July.


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    #28
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    You could put in a data access request for all information held in you by the company.

    You obviously have mental health issues and the company via trying to protect you and their staff and themselves in how they are managing your situation.
    You need to start working with them and helping them help you.

    If you're needing to go to st pats then their concerns are probably valid.


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    #29
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    ricicle wrote: »
    I’m on a 6 month contract until January, but I was told there was a position there for me after 6 months which I probably won’t be offered now

    I'd be fearful that you may indeed be correct.


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    #30
    ricicle
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    Chelsea Howling Viewer wrote: »
    You could put in a data access request for all information held in you by the company.

    You obviously have mental health issues and the company via trying to protect you and their staff and themselves in how they are managing your situation.
    You need to start working with them and helping them help you.

    If you're needing to go to st pats then their concerns are probably valid.

    I was told they have no ibligation to provide me with data other than name age etc..

    I have worked with them, I provided the doctor to doctor forms on time- even though they said I didn’t

    I seen the company doctor on the 15th and was signed off again on the 21st without seeing him or an explanations as to what I actually did.

    I was going to get an out pAtient with st pats as I couldn’t get an appointment with my psychiatrist until Jan 2020. Pats had a 5 month waiting list so. I had a phone consultation with my psychiatrist and was declared fit for work,

    This was not accepted so I went down to the psychiatrist without and appointment and was seen, declared fit for work again and this was not accepted

    I seen my GP as requested, I submitted the certs requested. I can’t see the company Doctor until he arranges an appointment on the basis of the information required. So how have I not been working with them?


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    #31
    lunamoon
    Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭lunamoon


    This doesn't seem right at all. Let me get this straight. Work have said you are unfit to work and want you to see a company doctor.

    The company doctor won't see you until you've provided documentation from your own doctor and your psychiatrist. You've provided these but they said they aren't good enough because they want them dated differently?

    I would hire yourself a good solicitor tbh. They are messing you around. I get that there's rules in place for protecting employees but having a cry at lunch and telling them you're under the care of Pieta house doesn't warrant them saying you are unfit to work.


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