Do you ever win with HR?

When you talk about pursuing things legally - what would you be pursuing?

If the Company legitimately wanted to exit you there are much easier ways to do it than what is currently going on, particularly if you're on a fixed term contract. I know it's a hard time you're having with them and it feels like they're being difficult but from the outside none of their requests are particularly unreasonable. I'm assuming that whoever you mentioned Pieta House to has reported a concern that you're having suicidal thoughts and so in employment terms you 'could' be a risk to yourself and potentially others. It may seem harsh but your employer has a duty of care to everyone involved, and having you out on sick leave and in a position to avail of help and get well is a responsible employment decision. You said they're not aware of your mental health difficulties (and you've had an excellent work record to date) so they're in no position to gauge whether you were just having an off day or whether it was something much more serious.

There are a lot of doctor's visits mentioned in your posts and I'm not sure I'm following them all but if it's a case that the Company doctor is saying you're not fit to return and your psychiatrist is saying that you are and work are willing to pay you in the meantime...I'd be inclined to comply with what they're asking of you. You could either ask your own GP to sign you off (so you qualify for the Illness Benefit) or write to the Company (perhaps get a friend to proof read the language as I'm pretty sure you're annoyed by now!) stating that your psychiatrist has deemed you fit for work and therefore inelligble for Illness Benefit - and that if they wish for you to remain on sick leave whilst you've been deemed fit to work that you expect to paid in full by the Company for the duration.

Try not to get too stressed out about it (easier said than done, I know).

ricicle

lunamoon wrote: »

This doesn't seem right at all. Let me get this straight. Work have said you are unfit to work and want you to see a company doctor.

The company doctor won't see you until you've provided documentation from your own doctor and your psychiatrist. You've provided these but they said they aren't good enough because they want them dated differently?

I would hire yourself a good solicitor tbh. They are messing you around. I get that there's rules in place for protecting employees but having a cry at lunch and telling them you're under the care of Pieta house doesn't warrant them saying you are unfit to work.

Yes exactly, I repeatedly asked was it the doctor to doctor form dated wrong or supporting documentation and they said the form- I provided them with proof the form was dated October 24th then they said it was the supporting documentation (which wasn’t requested in the first place) but as of the 24th of October my psychiatrist said I was fit to work, and they didn’t accept it.

I physically went to the psychiatrist office yesterday and again provided a letter stating I was fit to work and this wasn’t accepted

ricicle

Deleted User wrote: »

When you talk about pursuing things legally - what would you be pursuing?

If the Company legitimately wanted to exit you there are much easier ways to do it than what is currently going on, particularly if you're on a fixed term contract. I know it's a hard time you're having with them and it feels like they're being difficult but from the outside none of their requests are particularly unreasonable. I'm assuming that whoever you mentioned Pieta House to has reported a concern that you're having suicidal thoughts and so in employment terms you 'could' be a risk to yourself and potentially others. It may seem harsh but your employer has a duty of care to everyone involved, and having you out on sick leave and in a position to avail of help and get well is a responsible employment decision. You said they're not aware of your mental health difficulties (and you've had an excellent work record to date) so they're in no position to gauge whether you were just having an off day or whether it was something much more serious.

There are a lot of doctor's visits mentioned in your posts and I'm not sure I'm following them all but if it's a case that the Company doctor is saying you're not fit to return and your psychiatrist is saying that you are and work are willing to pay you in the meantime...I'd be inclined to comply with what they're asking of you. You could either ask your own GP to sign you off (so you qualify for the Illness Benefit) or write to the Company (perhaps get a friend to proof read the language as I'm pretty sure you're annoyed by now!) stating that your psychiatrist has deemed you fit for work and therefore inelligble for Illness Benefit - and that if they wish for you to remain on sick leave whilst you've been deemed fit to work that you expect to paid in full by the Company for the duration.

Try not to get too stressed out about it (easier said than done, I know).

I have provided everything they asked for on time. I’ve submitted a GP letter a doctor to doctor form from GP and psychiatrist and a further letter from psychiatrist and GP. my stats are good no issues there.

Pieta house is a counseling service, if I said I was going to jump in front of a train I could understand why they signed me off; but I’m actively seeking help. I have asked numerous times about sick certs and they just say I need a cert from my Gp I asked for a letter fromt company doctor to say he thinks I am unfit for work so my own GP will sign me off so I can be paid in full and this has not been provided

ohnonotgmail

ricicle wrote: »

I have provided everything they asked for on time. I’ve submitted a GP letter a doctor to doctor form from GP and psychiatrist and a further letter from psychiatrist and GP. my stats are good no issues there.

Pieta house is a counseling service, if I said I was going to jump in front of a train I could understand why they signed me off; but I’m actively seeking help. I have asked numerous times about sick certs and they just say I need a cert from my Gp I asked for a letter fromt company doctor to say he thinks I am unfit for work so my own GP will sign me off so I can be paid in full and this has not been provided

Why do you need a letter from the company GP to say you are unfit for work? Go back to your own GP and ask them to sign you off. Stress alone is reason enough

runawaybishop

Chelsea Howling Viewer wrote: »

You could put in a data access request for all information held in you by the company.

You obviously have mental health issues and the company via trying to protect you and their staff and themselves in how they are managing your situation.
You need to start working with them and helping them help you.

If you're needing to go to st pats then their concerns are probably valid.

If the op gave their manager info verbally and this was said to hr verbally then it is not data.

HildaOgdenx

Have you been to your own GP? It is your own GP who would provide you with the forms required for you to claim Illness Benefit. Apologies if you have answered that, but I'm finding the sequence of events slightly hard to follow.

What happens in relation to sick pay should be detailed in your contract or a staff handbook, if there is one. The way it usually works is, if work are paying you, you advise them of social welfare payments that you receive, and they can then deduct that from your salary.

It wouldn't usually be the company doctor who certifies you fit or unfit. That would be your own GP. The company doctor would give a second opinion, as such, based on their own assessment and on the reports from your GP and any other medical professionals involved in your care.

The main thing is to look after yourself, mind your health and get whatever correspondence is necessary sent in to your workplace.
It sounds like they are concerned for you, in fairness.

Dav010

Op, I’m sorry, I’m trying to work this out. The recent phone call and visit without appointment was with the company doctor, or your psychiatrist?

If I have this right, your employer requires a letter after assessment with your psychiatrist confirming you are fit to return to work, do you have this?

If that is the case, once you are assessed and passed fit, the company will allow you to resume work. Your GP cannot provide this because you are receiving specialist psychiatric care, Is that the situation?

ricicle

Dav010 wrote: »

Op, I’m sorry, I’m trying to work this out. The recent phone call and visit without appointment was with the company doctor, or your psychiatrist?

If I have this right, your employer requires a letter after assessment with your psychiatrist confirming you are fit to return to work, do you have this?

If that is the case, once you are assessed and passed fit, the company will allow you to resume work. Is that the situation?

Hi the recent call and visit was with my psychiatrist. The company doctor rejected the assessment by phone so I went and seen the psychiatrist without an appointment and this was also rejected even though it was clear I was seen and declared fit

I got an email advising I was being given 6 weeks to get a full assessment by psychiatrist even though the letter stated I had this yesterday!

ricicle

HildaOgdenx wrote: »

Have you been to your own GP? It is your own GP who would provide you with the forms required for you to claim Illness Benefit. Apologies if you have answered that, but I'm finding the sequence of events slightly hard to follow.

What happens in relation to sick pay should be detailed in your contract or a staff handbook, if there is one. The way it usually works is, if work are paying you, you advise them of social welfare payments that you receive, and they can then deduct that from your salary.

It wouldn't usually be the company doctor who certifies you fit or unfit. That would be your own GP. The company doctor would give a second opinion, as such, based on their own assessment and on the reports from your GP and any other medical professionals involved in your care.

The main thing is to look after yourself, mind your health and get whatever correspondence is necessary sent in to your workplace.
It sounds like they are concerned for you, in fairness.

My Gp wrote me a subsequent letter saying I am fit for work she didn’t sign me off. The policy only states you need a letter from ‘a’ doctor it doesn’t say your own Gp so I believe it is reasonable to assume if you are signed off by the company Gp he would inform HR.

If they are so concerned about me why was my next of kin contacted? I never said anything like I was going to throw myself under a bus,

ricicle

ricicle wrote: »

Pieta house is a counseling service, if I said I was going to jump in front of a train I could understand why they signed me off; but I’m actively seeking help. I have asked numerous times about sick certs and they just say I need a cert from my Gp I asked for a letter fromt company doctor to say he thinks I am unfit for work so my own GP will sign me off so I can be paid in full and this has not been provided

To be fair the common understanding of Pieta House is that it supports those with suicidal thoughts or self-harm, so although you know you're engaging with them to avail of counselling, your employer took a view that it's something more grave than that. Keep in mind that up to now they haven't been aware of any of your mental health issues, you said you've kept them hidden, so for them they have an employee who presents at work one day tearful and mentioning Pieta House. This is out of character based on what they're used to from you, and although it may seem like an overreaction, I can see why they've been keen that you don't return until a zillion doctors say you can. Also keep in mind that the company doctor is retained by the company for this kind of thing so although them declaring you unfit to work without seeing you isn't ideal, again they have usually cheerful employee being tearful and mentioning Pieta House so I can see why they've done it. It is a little 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' but as awareness of mental health issues increases so do poorly thought out knee-jerk responses and policies that don't always make sense.

Rather than focus on how wrong it all is, it might help to focus on what is the best outcome for you in terms of your wellbeing, but also your finances etc. Your employer isn't content with you coming back to work yet, and is willing to pay you whilst you're off. Their procedures might not stand up to scrutiny, but they are being reasonable by paying you while you're off. You don't need a letter from the company doctor to have your own GP sign you off - you just present to your GP and discuss your options, and most would be supportive given what you've been through recently and the brick wall you've hit with your employers.

ricicle

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Why do you need a letter from the company GP to say you are unfit for work? Go back to your own GP and ask them to sign you off. Stress alone is reason enough

I called the reception of my own GP and she advised I would need a letter from my company GP to give to my GP to be signed off by my GP as she sent the letter saying I was fit to work.

ohnonotgmail

ricicle wrote: »

I called the reception of my own GP and she advised I would need a letter from my company GP to give to my GP to be signed off by my GP as she sent the letter saying I was fit to work.

go see your gp yourself. the receptionist is not qualified to give you advice.

LuciX

lunamoon wrote: »

I would hire yourself a good solicitor tbh. They are messing you around.

She is on a fixed term contract.
Solicitor, really?
No one will take the case.
She has a start and end date. The company is not obliged support/keep her on - that's why they hired her on fixed term in the first place.

Move on OP, move on and look after your mental health that clearly needs some care.

Work is not a place or 'a little cry'. If you were not fit for work, unable to concentrate for whatever reason the answer was to stay at home.

Forget about the you from 4yrs ago, how good you were etc. It's a new year, new terms.

HildaOgdenx

ricicle wrote: »

My Gp wrote me a subsequent letter saying I am fit for work she didn’t sign me off. The policy only states you need a letter from ‘a’ doctor it doesn’t say your own Gp so I believe it is reasonable to assume if you are signed off by the company Gp he would inform HR.

If they are so concerned about me why was my next of kin contacted? I never said anything like I was going to throw myself under a bus,

What I described above is the process I have seen in any company I worked for. I'm not familiar with a situation where a company doctor signs someone off as unfit. So maybe that pans out differently.

Contacting your next of kin, again, that sounds to me like concern for you.
Anyway, I will leave it at that. My intention in posting, was to try to help.

Best of luck, hope things work out.

Strumms

John Hutton wrote: »

OP, it sounds like they want rid of you.

To be honest I think you would be better off elsewhere seen as the company are being so unsupportive and nasty.

They are wrong, if all that happened is that you told your manager that you have some mental health issues and had a bit of a cry and the next thing they are doing is making you jump through impossible hoops and being obtuse about it? And not telling you why? So they are saying you are unfit to work because of x but won't tell you what x is? That's a joke and is very unfair treatment.

Are you in a union? You need some professional advice here.

You also need to look after your health too OP, God bless you and don't be afraid to seek support during a difficult time like this.

I agree with the above. To be honest though i wouldn’t sweat it. Unfortunately some companies even in 2019 are not clued up enough or care enough to treat an employee with respect and support when things personally are not going quite so well. They are probably quick enough looking for favors and ‘extras’ but when it comes to going that bit extra to help they are not so interested in making the effort. Not only making the effort it sounds like bullying. Leave and find a kinder employer.

In a word ‘leave’. Find an employer who values you both when things are great and again when there are difficulties either personally or in the job...

ricicle

HildaOgdenx wrote: »

What I described above is the process I have seen in any company I worked for. I'm not familiar with a situation where a company doctor signs someone off as unfit. So maybe that pans out differently.

Contacting your next of kin, again, that sounds to me like concern for you.
Anyway, I will leave it at that. My intention in posting, was to try to help.

Best of luck, hope things work out.

The policy says you need to be certified by ‘a’ doctor, I was never informed it had had to be my Gp

Apologies I meant to write why wasn’t my next of kin contacted if they were so concerned

bfa1509

That doesn't sound right:

HR: We're signing you off over concerns for your welfare
OP: What concerns?
HR: That's confidential information


Actually it sounds exactly like HR...

ricicle

LuciX wrote: »

She is on a fixed term contract.
Solicitor, really?
No one will take the case.
She has a start and end date. The company is not obliged support/keep her on - that's why they hired her on fixed term in the first place.

Move on OP, move on and look after your mental health that clearly needs some care.

Work is not a place or 'a little cry'. If you were not fit for work, unable to concentrate for whatever reason the answer was to stay at home.

Forget about the you from 4yrs ago, how good you were etc. It's a new year, new terms.

I actually am looking after my mental health and my psychiatrist agrees work is good for me, to have structure like and a bit of money in my pocket

No trouble with concentration etc, all my work was done within SLA and up to standard. I took my lunch early to a private meeting room and was followed by my manager, i think this is more than reasonable it’s not like I was crying at my desk

Strumms

bfa1509 wrote: »

That doesn't sound right:

HR: We're signing you off over concerns for your welfare
OP: What concerns?
HR: That's confidential information


Actually it sounds exactly like HR...

Completely, signing you off but refusing to say why.. terrible form...

strandroad

ricicle wrote: »

He signed me as fit and then because I told my manager I was taking an early lunch and went for a cry. I told my manager I couldn’t talk about it as I was told by the company doctor “talk about mental health again and you will be pulled out of work” but she said it would go no further so I told her about my family issues and pieta house and she reported back to them, but I don’t know what she told them to warrant me being off

So you were asked to see a doctor even before you talked to the manager? And you had talked about mental health with the doctor already and they had told you that with any further happenings you should be off work? Why do you think it's about that situation alone then, there seems to be a long term pattern of stress or concerning behaviour?

Why don't you just allow the doctors to sign you off, you seem focused on getting a fit to work cert even though you clearly need a break and have for a while?

ricicle

strandroad wrote: »

So you were asked to see a doctor even before you talked to the manager? And you had talked about mental health with the doctor already and they had told you that with any further happenings you should be off work? Why do you think it's about that situation alone then, there seems to be a long term pattern of stress or concerning behaviour?

Why don't you just allow the doctors to sign you off, you seem focused on getting a fit to work cert even though you clearly need a break and have for a while?

Yes I spoke with a mental health first aider, who spoke to HR and I was signed off for a week. I talked about mental health originally to a first aider- that’s what they’re there for. Would a Doctor tell someone with cancer not to talk about it? I went to a private space on my lunch break and was followed, I told her I couldn’t talk about it, she assured me it would go no further, if she had to bring it further she should have advised me this, but I got a call out of the blue to say there were concerns. And I don’t even know what was said because I was upset about two family members going to die, HR were not even aware of this when they called and will not tell me what concerning behavior I have exhibited.

I don’t need time off, I need to be around people and in a routine. Along with attending counselling.

strandroad

ricicle wrote: »

Yes I spoke with a mental health first aider, who spoke to HR and I was signed off for a week. I talked about mental health originally to a first aider- that’s what they’re there for. Would a Doctor tell someone with cancer not to talk about it? I went to a private space on my lunch break and was followed, I told her I couldn’t talk about it, she assured me it would go no further, if she had to bring it further she should have advised me this, but I got a call out of the blue to say there were concerns. And I don’t even know what was said because I was upset about two family members going to die, HR were not even aware of this when they called and will not tell me what concerning behavior I have exhibited.

I don’t need time off, I need to be around people and in a routine. Along with attending counselling.

We only have your side of things OP but even with that only can't you see that the company is only doing what a company should do? You had a mental health leave first, next you are looking concerning enough for someone to feel that they need to talk to you immediately, they hardly followed you in on a whim, then they learn that you have an extremely stressful situation to cope with and are attending counselling commonly associated with very difficult times.

It is normal and to be honest even welcomed by most people to be signed off to recuperate in this situation. You might think you're coping with work but it seems to be your opinion only, and their duty is both to you (to provide relief in such difficult times) as well as to other employees who might be affected by your situation in many ways.

ricicle

strandroad wrote: »

We only have your side of things OP but even with that only can't you see that the company is only doing what a company should do? You had a mental health leave first, next you are looking concerning enough for someone to feel that they need to talk to you immediately, they hardly followed you in on a whim, then they learn that you have an extremely stressful situation to cope with and are attending counselling commonly associated with very difficult times.

It is normal and to be honest even welcomed by most people to be signed off to recuperate in this situation. You might think you're coping with work but it seems to be your opinion only, and their duty is both to you (to provide relief in such difficult times) as well as to other employees who might be affected by your situation in many ways.

I went to the meeting room, I text my boss to say I was taking an early lunch and I was in the meeting room, she asked was I ok, I said yes and she’s still followed, I did not do anything to concern her, I have been certfied fit for work by my psychiatrist twice now, once on the phone and once in writing as recent as yesterday. It is causing more stress going back and forward for notes and certs and dealing with HR who have been nothing but rude and dismissive, Even when I have gone back to them to point out their errors, if I spoke to people the way they have spoken to me, I would not have a job

runawaybishop

ricicle wrote: »

I went to the meeting room, I text my boss to say I was taking an early lunch and I was in the meeting room, she asked was I ok, I said yes and she’s still followed, I did not do anything to concern her, I have been certfied fit for work by my psychiatrist twice now, once on the phone and once in writing as recent as yesterday. It is causing more stress going back and forward for notes and certs and dealing with HR who have been nothing but rude and dismissive, Even when I have gone back to them to point out their errors, if I spoke to people the way they have spoken to me, I would not have a job

You broke down in tears and said you were attending a place known for dealing with suicide risks. Your manager has an obligation to report that.

As far as they are concerned until they are 100% sure you are ok they won't risk it.

ricicle

I see what your saying but I provided the documentation requested and was declared fit to work by Psychiatrist twice, and they want another assessment. I’m going to have good and bad days especially with the situation regarding two family members I am very close to, there is a difference between suicidal thoughts and actively saying you are going to kill yourself. If I said I was going to do it I would understand. My job is advertised on LinkedIn now anyway, so that’s me gone

uck51js9zml2yt

ricicle wrote: »

I was told they have no ibligation to provide me with data other than name age etc..

Who told you?
Article 15 GDPR , Data access request covers everything they have on you.

ricicle

runawaybishop wrote: »

You broke down in tears and said you were attending a place known for dealing with suicide risks. Your manager has an obligation to report that.

As far as they are concerned until they are 100% sure you are ok they won't risk it.

Chelsea Howling Viewer wrote: »

Who told you?
Article 15 GDPR , Data access request covers everything they have on you.

I called the Data Protection Commission

gordongekko

ricicle wrote: »

I actually am looking after my mental health and my psychiatrist agrees work is good for me, to have structure like and a bit of money in my pocket

They are still paying you

No trouble with concentration etc, all my work was done within SLA and up to standard. I took my lunch early to a private meeting room and was followed by my manager, i think this is more than reasonable it’s not like I was crying at my desk

Crying in the workplace is not normal.

gordongekko

I still don't get why you are fighting with them. If you are on contract they can let you go anyway why get thick about the situation. If you work with them they'll probably keep you on.

ricicle

gordongekko wrote: »

Crying in the workplace is not normal.

No I agree it’s not normal, but I am under a lot of stress at home especially with close family members terminal. It Was in a meeting room on my lunch break. When I said I couldn’t talk about it that should have been respected instead of saying it’s ok it won’t go further