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Do you ever win with HR?

  • 08-11-2019 2:00am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭


    Hi I am on a fixed term contract.

    I have been signed off work from the company doctor over a report to HR over concerns for my welfare- they will not provide me with written confirmation of what these concerns are but want a report from my GP and Psychiatrist I am fit to work.

    I provided these but due to administrative errors they were not recieved in time but I could prove I sent them in on time,

    They will not accept my Gp report as she said she is unable to say if I am fit to work as I am under the care of a psychiatrist for my mental health and she has no up to date report- I couldn’t get an appointment until after Christmas.

    The psychiatrist couldn’t see me but filled in the form saying I was fit to work after a phone call with me.They did not accept this form as he had not filled in the date seen section,

    They also advised it was incorrectly dated and told me I had failed to provide the requested information on time and would be in touch, i sent them a picture proving the date was correct and they didn’t even acknowledge their error.

    They advised me I would be paid in full by them and then I got a letter regarding social welfare.

    I raised concerns that confidential information was shared and this was ignored,

    A letter from the company doctor says It would be an unreasonable health and safety risk to x colleagues should she return to work and exhibit the same behaviour"

    I don’t know what behavior I have displayed. I Told my manager I was taking an early lunch and I went to a meeting room for a bit of a cry, she followed me and told me anything I said would go no further, I told her about some family issues, and feeling down. She sent me home even though I didn’t want to go.

    I had a bereavement on the sunday and advised my manager I would not be in on Monday, And on the Monday I got a call from HR saying I was being signed off indefinitely over Friday.

    She would not tell me why but I was only able to say “you are attending pieta house”. surely they cannot sign me off for that?

    I asked my manager what she said to Hr and she denied saying anything, but then how did they know about pieta house?

    HR were able to tell me that they had not been informed there was any issues in my family. So I don’t know what has been said

    I asked the HR manager on the phone did I have to see the company doctor or would a phone call do and she said “so now your refusing to see the company doctor”

    I have sent numerous emails asking for an explanation as to why I was told incorrect information, about my data breach concerns and other issues. My emails get ignored

    I feel like they are making me jump through hoops because I have a mental illness. I used to work in this company years ago and I have a great record. Which is why they took me back, but I didn’t have mental health issues then. My work has never been questioned, stats are good etc,

    Is it even worth perusing this legally, do you ever win against HR?

    Thanks

    R


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,382 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Why would you? It reads like they’re acting with your best interests in mind, while following their own policies to the letter. Why not work with them? What would be the point of a legal solution?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    OP - go get independent / professional advice asap. PR are there for the company at best. Make sure to have copies of all correspondence at hand. Then take care of yourself and your health. Your GP etc will help if you need time off etc. Best of luck with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭John Hutton


    OP, it sounds like they want rid of you.

    To be honest I think you would be better off elsewhere seen as the company are being so unsupportive and nasty.

    They are wrong, if all that happened is that you told your manager that you have some mental health issues and had a bit of a cry and the next thing they are doing is making you jump through impossible hoops and being obtuse about it? And not telling you why? So they are saying you are unfit to work because of x but won't tell you what x is? That's a joke and is very unfair treatment.

    Are you in a union? You need some professional advice here.

    You also need to look after your health too OP, God bless you and don't be afraid to seek support during a difficult time like this.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The company is requesting confirmation that the op is fit and able to return to work, as is proper if the welfare of both the op and other employees has to be considered. This is a H&S issue.

    To date, it appears the op does not have confirmation from her psychiatrist that she is fit to return to work, once she has, the employer can have no objection on H&S grounds. The OP needs that letter, op, if you are having to wait for an appointment in the Public Health Service, you might want to consider getting a private appointment, you will need your records from your usual clinician in order for the new one to familiarise him/herself with your condition.

    Get the letter, go back to work. If the company suspect you are at risk of harm to yourself or others (a mention of Pieta House would understandably cause concern) by returning to work, it would be negligent of them to allow you to without confirmation from a medical expert that it is safe to do so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,391 ✭✭✭whomitconcerns


    I fought with HR many times. But if they have reasonable suspicion that you are not fit to return to work for your own and others health and wellbeing, they would be right.

    It may not look it but in this case they are probably right. And if they are not, get the clear unequivocal letter from the doctor to say so. Problem solved


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,180 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    ricicle wrote: »
    The psychiatrist couldn’t see me but filled in the form saying I was fit to work after a phone call with me.They did not accept this form as he had not filled in the date seen section,

    They also advised it was incorrectly dated and told me I had failed to provide the requested information on time and would be in touch, i sent them a picture proving the date was correct and they didn’t even acknowledge their error.

    ...

    I don’t know what behavior I have displayed. I Told my manager I was taking an early lunch and I went to a meeting room for a bit of a cry, she followed me and told me anything I said would go no further, I told her about some family issues, and feeling down. She sent me home even though I didn’t want to go.

    ....

    She would not tell me why but I was only able to say “you are attending pieta house”. surely they cannot sign me off for that?


    I asked the HR manager on the phone did I have to see the company doctor or would a phone call do and she said “so now your refusing to see the company doctor”

    The company have to provide a safe working environment for both you AND their other employees. It sounds like the symptoms of your illness are (at risk of) making the workplace unsafe for your colleagues. So the company is being cautious.

    There was no data breach: your manager was a fool for saying anything said would go no further. It would be totally wrong and unsafe for them not to seek professional advice from HR (and if necessary from others, eg mental health professionals, or the guards if there is a crisis) - and in seeking this advice they needed to provide facts about what they have seen and heard.

    (And in general, anything you say to you manager may be shared with both HR and your manager's manager.)

    You cannot have sent a picture proving the date was correct, given that the psychiatrist did not fill in the date-seen.



    You said that the company is paying you. In this case, I don't see that they're being anything other than cautious about your health, and that of their other employees. Use the time productively. And see the company doctor!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,592 ✭✭✭Hoboo


    The company doctor has determined you're not fit for work? Did you even see the company doctor? You don't mention it.

    If yes, then it's up to you to see and provide an alternative.

    If no, well without sitting down with you for an hour and going through the detail, it's impossible to offer advice, other than speak to an employment law professional (don't bother with a general solicitor). If you're part of a union, use them.

    Also, get your ducks in a row. Record every conversation the second you get off the phone, print every email, keep dates, times, everything in a diary. Clarify what people mean if t's not clear and record what they said they meant.

    Contract & employee handbook should already be given. Get a copy of their h&s policy, and their EAP if they have one.

    I wouldn't be worried anyhow, mental health puts the fear of God into people who haven't experienced or worked with someone who manages it, they're afraid of their lives to do something wrong so follow everything to the law. Duty of care to both you and colleagues is paramount, sounds to me like they have an EAP in place. A bit more communication from both sides might help the situation. Best of luck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    endacl wrote: »
    Why would you? It reads like they’re acting with your best interests in mind, while following their own policies to the letter. Why not work with them? What would be the point of a legal solution?

    Signing someone off for crying? Saying they were getting help? Not informing HR about people being terminally ill in their family but saying I was attending pieta house- which means I am getting counselling. I was also told on the phone “so you are refusing to see the company doctor” when I asked for a phone call to speed things up, surely the doctor can even say why I am off


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    Dav010 wrote: »
    The company is requesting confirmation that the op is fit and able to return to work, as is proper if the welfare of both the op and other employees has to be considered. This is a H&S issue.

    To date, it appears the op does not have confirmation from her psychiatrist that she is fit to return to work, once she has, the employer can have no objection on H&S grounds. The OP needs that letter, op, if you are having to wait for an appointment in the Public Health Service, you might want to consider getting a private appointment, you will need your records from your usual clinician in order for the new one to familiarise him/herself with your condition.

    Get the letter, go back to work. If the company suspect you are at risk of harm to yourself or others (a mention of Pieta House would understandably cause concern) by returning to work, it would be negligent of them to allow you to without confirmation from a medical expert that it is safe to do so.

    The psychiatrist said I was fit to work on the back of a phone call as I couldn’t get an appointment. I only seen him at the start of the month. I tried to go private with VHI but st pats have a 5month waiting list. My GP does not deal with my mental health so she cannot comment on anything other than my appointment at the start of the month. Which they will not accept. Can they really not tell me why I am off? Saying your Going for counselling so you can’t work seems ridiculous


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    ricicle wrote: »
    Signing someone off for crying? Saying they were getting help? Not informing HR about people being terminally ill in their family but saying I was attending pieta house- which means I am getting counselling. I was also told on the phone “so you are refusing to see the company doctor” when I asked for a phone call to speed things up, surely the doctor can even say why I am off



    I'm confused. Did you actually see or speak to the Company doctor?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    The company have to provide a safe working environment for both you AND their other employees. It sounds like the symptoms of your illness are (at risk of) making the workplace unsafe for your colleagues. So the company is being cautious.

    There was no data breach: your manager was a fool for saying anything said would go no further. It would be totally wrong and unsafe for them not to seek professional advice from HR (and if necessary from others, eg mental health professionals, or the guards if there is a crisis) - and in seeking this advice they needed to provide facts about what they have seen and heard.

    (And in general, anything you say to you manager may be shared with both HR and your manager's manager.)

    You cannot have sent a picture proving the date was correct, given that the psychiatrist did not fill in the date-seen.



    You said that the company is paying you. In this case, I don't see that they're being anything other than cautious about your health, and that of their other employees. Use the time productively. And see the company doctor!

    Can they really not tell me what causes concern? I took an early lunch to cry! I have a message from HR where it says the information will be treated with the strictest confidence by HR representative and then another lady in HR was able to say it back to me.

    I sent a picture showing the signed and stamped page of the requested form was correct, but they kept saying it was wrong. I asked for clarification whether the stamped and dated page was wrong or supporting documentation page and they kept saying the form page- which was incorrect. It was the supporting documentation! Which they didn’t even ask to be furnished with and so it should be dismissed

    I want to see the company doctor but I need to see my psychiatrist first. I went to the clinic yesterday without an appointment and was seen. I know I shouldn’t have done that but he wrote a further letter saying j was fit and it wasn’t accepted that they want me to have another assessment within 6 weeks!


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I'm confused. Did you actually see or speak to the Company doctor?

    No I didn’t see him or speak to him on the phone, I cannot see him until I provide docs from my psychiatrist and GP. Which I did

    Most recently I went to my psychiatrist yesterday without an appointment and he wrote me a letter saying I was fit to work which wasn’t accepted and they want another assessment within 6 weeks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    What I find strange is that you haven't been signed as being unfit for work by a medical practitioner (you have actually been signed fit by your psychiatrist) yet the company have sent you a letter regarding social welfare.

    Are the company organising for you to see their company doctor?


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    What I find strange is that you haven't been signed as being unfit for work by a medical practitioner (you have actually been signed fit by your psychiatrist) yet the company have sent you a letter regarding social welfare.

    Are the company organising for you to see their company doctor?

    I am not signed off by my GP or Psychiatrist. I have not seen or spoken to the company doctor but was advised he has deemed me unfit for work and Am not allowed return until I have seen him but I can’t see him until I am fit by my Gp and psychiatrist but I provided the requested documentation. Originally HR said I would be paid in full as long as I submit certs , then they sent me social welfare forms and when I enquired they said I had to apply for pay by social welfare and then work pay the balance


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    ricicle wrote: »
    I am not signed off by my GP or Psychiatrist. I have not seen or spoken to the company doctor but was advised he has deemed me unfit for work and Am not allowed return until I have seen him but I can’t see him until I am fit by my Gp and psychiatrist but I provided the requested documentation. Originally HR said I would be paid in full as long as I submit certs , then they sent me social welfare forms and when I enquired they said I had to apply for pay by social welfare and then work pay the balance

    I think you need to contact your work and let them know that you can't apply for social welfare because you are signed fit-to-work. You need a medical cert (unfit for work) to apply for social welfare and you can't get one of these as you are signed fit for work.

    Inform HR that you are fit for work, and have been signed fit for work by your psychiatrist and as such are off work at their request and therefore you expect to be paid in full by them until such time as they let you return to work.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Are you not over reacting a bit. Work are paying you and appear concerned about your health. Just take the time off until you can get the appointment with your doctor and de-stress .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,180 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    ricicle wrote: »
    Originally HR said I would be paid in full as long as I submit certs , then they sent me social welfare forms and when I enquired they said I had to apply for pay by social welfare and then work pay the balance


    Yes, that it how it works in most companies.

    This really is very simple: Go and see the company doctor. S/he will either say you are fit for work or give you a certificate saying you are not fit for work. So either you go back to work, or you fill in the welfare forms.

    You CANNOT do this by phone (I have no idea where you got the idea that was even possible). You need to actually SEE the doctor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    Are you not over reacting a bit. Work are paying you and appear concerned about your health. Just take the time off until you can get the appointment with your doctor and de-stress .

    My issue is I don’t know what concerns were raised other than I said I was going to pieta house.
    I seen my psychiatrist yesterday and he said I am fit to work and it is good for me too.
    They are saying I will be paid partly by them and partly by social welfare. But you need to be signed off by Gp to get social welfare and I’m not signed off by her and company doctor doesn’t do sick certs
    I can’t get anotjer appointment with psychiatrist until Jan 2020, and they have given me 6 weeks to get another assessment.
    My contact is up in January. I was told there is a job there for me but I doubt there is now, I worked for this company a few years ago for 4 years and had no issues until now when mental health comes in to the picture.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Ursus Horribilis


    You are doing yourself no good by refusing to see the company doctor. You posted before about this. Being evasive is simply drawing attention to your issues and suggests you're hiding something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    Yes, that it how it works in most companies.

    This really is very simple: Go and see the company doctor. S/he will either say you are fit for work or give you a certificate saying you are not fit for work. So either you go back to work, or you fill in the welfare forms.

    You CANNOT do this by phone (I have no idea where you got the idea that was even possible). You need to actually SEE the doctor.

    But I am not signed off by my GP and the company Gp doesn’t do certs so how do I get my full wage?

    I cannot see the company doctor until he is satisfied with the doctor to doctor reports submitted which he hasn’t accepted

    I seen my psychiatrist on October 3rd but they want an assessment after the 18th, I sent a letter from yesterday saying I was fit and not accepted.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    You are doing yourself no good by refusing to see the company doctor. You posted before about this. Being evasive is simply drawing attention to your issues and suggests you're hiding something.

    I seen the company doctor on October 15th and was signed off fit to work, then on the 21st I was called and told I was signed off due to concerns raised on the 18th, I don’t know what these concerns are. Company doctor has not called me, arranged to meet me or emailed me advising why I am off


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    You could explain the situation to your doctor and explain this is causing you a lot of stress and they may sign you unfit to work due to this stress


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    ricicle wrote: »
    I seen the company doctor on October 15th and was signed off fit to work, then on the 21st I was called and told I was signed off due to concerns raised on the 18th, I don’t know what these concerns are. Company doctor has not called me, arranged to meet me or emailed me advising why I am off

    I’m a little confused, I thought you only spoke to your psychiatrist on the phone, if you were assessed in person in his/her rooms and after examination/discussion deemed fit to return to work, surely your psychiatrist can give you an up to date, valid back to work confirmation letter?


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I’m a little confused, I thought you only spoke to your psychiatrist on the phone, if you were assessed in person in his/her rooms and after examination/discussion deemed fit to return to work, surely your psychiatrist can give you an up to date, valid back to work confirmation letter?

    I spoke to him on the phone and he sent the requested forms back declaring I was fit to work, this was not accepted so I turned up at his office yesterday without an appointment and he seen me, wrote a letter declaring I am fit to work but this was not accepted, they want a full assessment within 6 weeks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    ricicle wrote: »
    I seen the company doctor on October 15th and was signed off fit to work, then on the 21st I was called and told I was signed off due to concerns raised on the 18th, I don’t know what these concerns are. Company doctor has not called me, arranged to meet me or emailed me advising why I am off

    Very strange for the company doctor to sign you fit after seeing you and then a few days later to then sign you unfit without seeing you.

    You said you are on a fixed term contract. Are you only there a short while?


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Very strange for the company doctor to sign you fit after seeing you and then a few days later to then sign you unfit without seeing you.

    You said you are on a fixed term contract. Are you only there a short while?

    He signed me as fit and then because I told my manager I was taking an early lunch and went for a cry. I told my manager I couldn’t talk about it as I was told by the company doctor “talk about mental health again and you will be pulled out of work” but she said it would go no further so I told her about my family issues and pieta house and she reported back to them, but I don’t know what she told them to warrant me being off,

    I’m on a 6 month contract until January, but I was told there was a position there for me after 6 months which I probably won’t be offered now, I used to work for the company from 2012-2015 and I left due to my mental health declining, they are not aware of why I left and then they took me back this July.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    You could put in a data access request for all information held in you by the company.

    You obviously have mental health issues and the company via trying to protect you and their staff and themselves in how they are managing your situation.
    You need to start working with them and helping them help you.

    If you're needing to go to st pats then their concerns are probably valid.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    ricicle wrote: »
    I’m on a 6 month contract until January, but I was told there was a position there for me after 6 months which I probably won’t be offered now

    I'd be fearful that you may indeed be correct.


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    You could put in a data access request for all information held in you by the company.

    You obviously have mental health issues and the company via trying to protect you and their staff and themselves in how they are managing your situation.
    You need to start working with them and helping them help you.

    If you're needing to go to st pats then their concerns are probably valid.

    I was told they have no ibligation to provide me with data other than name age etc..

    I have worked with them, I provided the doctor to doctor forms on time- even though they said I didn’t

    I seen the company doctor on the 15th and was signed off again on the 21st without seeing him or an explanations as to what I actually did.

    I was going to get an out pAtient with st pats as I couldn’t get an appointment with my psychiatrist until Jan 2020. Pats had a 5 month waiting list so. I had a phone consultation with my psychiatrist and was declared fit for work,

    This was not accepted so I went down to the psychiatrist without and appointment and was seen, declared fit for work again and this was not accepted

    I seen my GP as requested, I submitted the certs requested. I can’t see the company Doctor until he arranges an appointment on the basis of the information required. So how have I not been working with them?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭lunamoon


    This doesn't seem right at all. Let me get this straight. Work have said you are unfit to work and want you to see a company doctor.

    The company doctor won't see you until you've provided documentation from your own doctor and your psychiatrist. You've provided these but they said they aren't good enough because they want them dated differently?

    I would hire yourself a good solicitor tbh. They are messing you around. I get that there's rules in place for protecting employees but having a cry at lunch and telling them you're under the care of Pieta house doesn't warrant them saying you are unfit to work.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    When you talk about pursuing things legally - what would you be pursuing?

    If the Company legitimately wanted to exit you there are much easier ways to do it than what is currently going on, particularly if you're on a fixed term contract. I know it's a hard time you're having with them and it feels like they're being difficult but from the outside none of their requests are particularly unreasonable. I'm assuming that whoever you mentioned Pieta House to has reported a concern that you're having suicidal thoughts and so in employment terms you 'could' be a risk to yourself and potentially others. It may seem harsh but your employer has a duty of care to everyone involved, and having you out on sick leave and in a position to avail of help and get well is a responsible employment decision. You said they're not aware of your mental health difficulties (and you've had an excellent work record to date) so they're in no position to gauge whether you were just having an off day or whether it was something much more serious.

    There are a lot of doctor's visits mentioned in your posts and I'm not sure I'm following them all but if it's a case that the Company doctor is saying you're not fit to return and your psychiatrist is saying that you are and work are willing to pay you in the meantime...I'd be inclined to comply with what they're asking of you. You could either ask your own GP to sign you off (so you qualify for the Illness Benefit) or write to the Company (perhaps get a friend to proof read the language as I'm pretty sure you're annoyed by now!) stating that your psychiatrist has deemed you fit for work and therefore inelligble for Illness Benefit - and that if they wish for you to remain on sick leave whilst you've been deemed fit to work that you expect to paid in full by the Company for the duration.

    Try not to get too stressed out about it (easier said than done, I know).


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    lunamoon wrote: »
    This doesn't seem right at all. Let me get this straight. Work have said you are unfit to work and want you to see a company doctor.

    The company doctor won't see you until you've provided documentation from your own doctor and your psychiatrist. You've provided these but they said they aren't good enough because they want them dated differently?

    I would hire yourself a good solicitor tbh. They are messing you around. I get that there's rules in place for protecting employees but having a cry at lunch and telling them you're under the care of Pieta house doesn't warrant them saying you are unfit to work.

    Yes exactly, I repeatedly asked was it the doctor to doctor form dated wrong or supporting documentation and they said the form- I provided them with proof the form was dated October 24th then they said it was the supporting documentation (which wasn’t requested in the first place) but as of the 24th of October my psychiatrist said I was fit to work, and they didn’t accept it.

    I physically went to the psychiatrist office yesterday and again provided a letter stating I was fit to work and this wasn’t accepted


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    When you talk about pursuing things legally - what would you be pursuing?

    If the Company legitimately wanted to exit you there are much easier ways to do it than what is currently going on, particularly if you're on a fixed term contract. I know it's a hard time you're having with them and it feels like they're being difficult but from the outside none of their requests are particularly unreasonable. I'm assuming that whoever you mentioned Pieta House to has reported a concern that you're having suicidal thoughts and so in employment terms you 'could' be a risk to yourself and potentially others. It may seem harsh but your employer has a duty of care to everyone involved, and having you out on sick leave and in a position to avail of help and get well is a responsible employment decision. You said they're not aware of your mental health difficulties (and you've had an excellent work record to date) so they're in no position to gauge whether you were just having an off day or whether it was something much more serious.

    There are a lot of doctor's visits mentioned in your posts and I'm not sure I'm following them all but if it's a case that the Company doctor is saying you're not fit to return and your psychiatrist is saying that you are and work are willing to pay you in the meantime...I'd be inclined to comply with what they're asking of you. You could either ask your own GP to sign you off (so you qualify for the Illness Benefit) or write to the Company (perhaps get a friend to proof read the language as I'm pretty sure you're annoyed by now!) stating that your psychiatrist has deemed you fit for work and therefore inelligble for Illness Benefit - and that if they wish for you to remain on sick leave whilst you've been deemed fit to work that you expect to paid in full by the Company for the duration.

    Try not to get too stressed out about it (easier said than done, I know).

    I have provided everything they asked for on time. I’ve submitted a GP letter a doctor to doctor form from GP and psychiatrist and a further letter from psychiatrist and GP. my stats are good no issues there.

    Pieta house is a counseling service, if I said I was going to jump in front of a train I could understand why they signed me off; but I’m actively seeking help. I have asked numerous times about sick certs and they just say I need a cert from my Gp I asked for a letter fromt company doctor to say he thinks I am unfit for work so my own GP will sign me off so I can be paid in full and this has not been provided


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ricicle wrote: »
    I have provided everything they asked for on time. I’ve submitted a GP letter a doctor to doctor form from GP and psychiatrist and a further letter from psychiatrist and GP. my stats are good no issues there.

    Pieta house is a counseling service, if I said I was going to jump in front of a train I could understand why they signed me off; but I’m actively seeking help. I have asked numerous times about sick certs and they just say I need a cert from my Gp I asked for a letter fromt company doctor to say he thinks I am unfit for work so my own GP will sign me off so I can be paid in full and this has not been provided

    Why do you need a letter from the company GP to say you are unfit for work? Go back to your own GP and ask them to sign you off. Stress alone is reason enough


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,512 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    You could put in a data access request for all information held in you by the company.

    You obviously have mental health issues and the company via trying to protect you and their staff and themselves in how they are managing your situation.
    You need to start working with them and helping them help you.

    If you're needing to go to st pats then their concerns are probably valid.

    If the op gave their manager info verbally and this was said to hr verbally then it is not data.


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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,556 Mod ✭✭✭✭HildaOgdenx


    Have you been to your own GP? It is your own GP who would provide you with the forms required for you to claim Illness Benefit. Apologies if you have answered that, but I'm finding the sequence of events slightly hard to follow.

    What happens in relation to sick pay should be detailed in your contract or a staff handbook, if there is one. The way it usually works is, if work are paying you, you advise them of social welfare payments that you receive, and they can then deduct that from your salary.

    It wouldn't usually be the company doctor who certifies you fit or unfit. That would be your own GP. The company doctor would give a second opinion, as such, based on their own assessment and on the reports from your GP and any other medical professionals involved in your care.

    The main thing is to look after yourself, mind your health and get whatever correspondence is necessary sent in to your workplace.
    It sounds like they are concerned for you, in fairness.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Op, I’m sorry, I’m trying to work this out. The recent phone call and visit without appointment was with the company doctor, or your psychiatrist?

    If I have this right, your employer requires a letter after assessment with your psychiatrist confirming you are fit to return to work, do you have this?

    If that is the case, once you are assessed and passed fit, the company will allow you to resume work. Your GP cannot provide this because you are receiving specialist psychiatric care, Is that the situation?


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Op, I’m sorry, I’m trying to work this out. The recent phone call and visit without appointment was with the company doctor, or your psychiatrist?

    If I have this right, your employer requires a letter after assessment with your psychiatrist confirming you are fit to return to work, do you have this?

    If that is the case, once you are assessed and passed fit, the company will allow you to resume work. Is that the situation?

    Hi the recent call and visit was with my psychiatrist. The company doctor rejected the assessment by phone so I went and seen the psychiatrist without an appointment and this was also rejected even though it was clear I was seen and declared fit

    I got an email advising I was being given 6 weeks to get a full assessment by psychiatrist even though the letter stated I had this yesterday!


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    Have you been to your own GP? It is your own GP who would provide you with the forms required for you to claim Illness Benefit. Apologies if you have answered that, but I'm finding the sequence of events slightly hard to follow.

    What happens in relation to sick pay should be detailed in your contract or a staff handbook, if there is one. The way it usually works is, if work are paying you, you advise them of social welfare payments that you receive, and they can then deduct that from your salary.

    It wouldn't usually be the company doctor who certifies you fit or unfit. That would be your own GP. The company doctor would give a second opinion, as such, based on their own assessment and on the reports from your GP and any other medical professionals involved in your care.

    The main thing is to look after yourself, mind your health and get whatever correspondence is necessary sent in to your workplace.
    It sounds like they are concerned for you, in fairness.

    My Gp wrote me a subsequent letter saying I am fit for work she didn’t sign me off. The policy only states you need a letter from ‘a’ doctor it doesn’t say your own Gp so I believe it is reasonable to assume if you are signed off by the company Gp he would inform HR.

    If they are so concerned about me why was my next of kin contacted? I never said anything like I was going to throw myself under a bus,


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    ricicle wrote: »
    Pieta house is a counseling service, if I said I was going to jump in front of a train I could understand why they signed me off; but I’m actively seeking help. I have asked numerous times about sick certs and they just say I need a cert from my Gp I asked for a letter fromt company doctor to say he thinks I am unfit for work so my own GP will sign me off so I can be paid in full and this has not been provided

    To be fair the common understanding of Pieta House is that it supports those with suicidal thoughts or self-harm, so although you know you're engaging with them to avail of counselling, your employer took a view that it's something more grave than that. Keep in mind that up to now they haven't been aware of any of your mental health issues, you said you've kept them hidden, so for them they have an employee who presents at work one day tearful and mentioning Pieta House. This is out of character based on what they're used to from you, and although it may seem like an overreaction, I can see why they've been keen that you don't return until a zillion doctors say you can. Also keep in mind that the company doctor is retained by the company for this kind of thing so although them declaring you unfit to work without seeing you isn't ideal, again they have usually cheerful employee being tearful and mentioning Pieta House so I can see why they've done it. It is a little 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' but as awareness of mental health issues increases so do poorly thought out knee-jerk responses and policies that don't always make sense.

    Rather than focus on how wrong it all is, it might help to focus on what is the best outcome for you in terms of your wellbeing, but also your finances etc. Your employer isn't content with you coming back to work yet, and is willing to pay you whilst you're off. Their procedures might not stand up to scrutiny, but they are being reasonable by paying you while you're off. You don't need a letter from the company doctor to have your own GP sign you off - you just present to your GP and discuss your options, and most would be supportive given what you've been through recently and the brick wall you've hit with your employers.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    Why do you need a letter from the company GP to say you are unfit for work? Go back to your own GP and ask them to sign you off. Stress alone is reason enough

    I called the reception of my own GP and she advised I would need a letter from my company GP to give to my GP to be signed off by my GP as she sent the letter saying I was fit to work.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,573 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ricicle wrote: »
    I called the reception of my own GP and she advised I would need a letter from my company GP to give to my GP to be signed off by my GP as she sent the letter saying I was fit to work.

    go see your gp yourself. the receptionist is not qualified to give you advice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭LuciX


    lunamoon wrote: »
    I would hire yourself a good solicitor tbh. They are messing you around.

    She is on a fixed term contract.
    Solicitor, really?
    No one will take the case.
    She has a start and end date. The company is not obliged support/keep her on - that's why they hired her on fixed term in the first place.

    Move on OP, move on and look after your mental health that clearly needs some care.

    Work is not a place or 'a little cry'. If you were not fit for work, unable to concentrate for whatever reason the answer was to stay at home.

    Forget about the you from 4yrs ago, how good you were etc. It's a new year, new terms.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,556 Mod ✭✭✭✭HildaOgdenx


    ricicle wrote: »
    My Gp wrote me a subsequent letter saying I am fit for work she didn’t sign me off. The policy only states you need a letter from ‘a’ doctor it doesn’t say your own Gp so I believe it is reasonable to assume if you are signed off by the company Gp he would inform HR.

    If they are so concerned about me why was my next of kin contacted? I never said anything like I was going to throw myself under a bus,

    What I described above is the process I have seen in any company I worked for. I'm not familiar with a situation where a company doctor signs someone off as unfit. So maybe that pans out differently.

    Contacting your next of kin, again, that sounds to me like concern for you.
    Anyway, I will leave it at that. My intention in posting, was to try to help.

    Best of luck, hope things work out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,053 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    OP, it sounds like they want rid of you.

    To be honest I think you would be better off elsewhere seen as the company are being so unsupportive and nasty.

    They are wrong, if all that happened is that you told your manager that you have some mental health issues and had a bit of a cry and the next thing they are doing is making you jump through impossible hoops and being obtuse about it? And not telling you why? So they are saying you are unfit to work because of x but won't tell you what x is? That's a joke and is very unfair treatment.

    Are you in a union? You need some professional advice here.

    You also need to look after your health too OP, God bless you and don't be afraid to seek support during a difficult time like this.

    I agree with the above. To be honest though i wouldn’t sweat it. Unfortunately some companies even in 2019 are not clued up enough or care enough to treat an employee with respect and support when things personally are not going quite so well. They are probably quick enough looking for favors and ‘extras’ but when it comes to going that bit extra to help they are not so interested in making the effort. Not only making the effort it sounds like bullying. Leave and find a kinder employer.

    In a word ‘leave’. Find an employer who values you both when things are great and again when there are difficulties either personally or in the job...


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    What I described above is the process I have seen in any company I worked for. I'm not familiar with a situation where a company doctor signs someone off as unfit. So maybe that pans out differently.

    Contacting your next of kin, again, that sounds to me like concern for you.
    Anyway, I will leave it at that. My intention in posting, was to try to help.

    Best of luck, hope things work out.

    The policy says you need to be certified by ‘a’ doctor, I was never informed it had had to be my Gp

    Apologies I meant to write why wasn’t my next of kin contacted if they were so concerned


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭bfa1509


    That doesn't sound right:

    HR: We're signing you off over concerns for your welfare
    OP: What concerns?
    HR: That's confidential information


    Actually it sounds exactly like HR...


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭ricicle


    LuciX wrote: »
    She is on a fixed term contract.
    Solicitor, really?
    No one will take the case.
    She has a start and end date. The company is not obliged support/keep her on - that's why they hired her on fixed term in the first place.

    Move on OP, move on and look after your mental health that clearly needs some care.

    Work is not a place or 'a little cry'. If you were not fit for work, unable to concentrate for whatever reason the answer was to stay at home.

    Forget about the you from 4yrs ago, how good you were etc. It's a new year, new terms.


    I actually am looking after my mental health and my psychiatrist agrees work is good for me, to have structure like and a bit of money in my pocket

    No trouble with concentration etc, all my work was done within SLA and up to standard. I took my lunch early to a private meeting room and was followed by my manager, i think this is more than reasonable it’s not like I was crying at my desk


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,053 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    bfa1509 wrote: »
    That doesn't sound right:

    HR: We're signing you off over concerns for your welfare
    OP: What concerns?
    HR: That's confidential information


    Actually it sounds exactly like HR...

    Completely, signing you off but refusing to say why.. terrible form...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    ricicle wrote: »
    He signed me as fit and then because I told my manager I was taking an early lunch and went for a cry. I told my manager I couldn’t talk about it as I was told by the company doctor “talk about mental health again and you will be pulled out of work” but she said it would go no further so I told her about my family issues and pieta house and she reported back to them, but I don’t know what she told them to warrant me being off

    So you were asked to see a doctor even before you talked to the manager? And you had talked about mental health with the doctor already and they had told you that with any further happenings you should be off work? Why do you think it's about that situation alone then, there seems to be a long term pattern of stress or concerning behaviour?

    Why don't you just allow the doctors to sign you off, you seem focused on getting a fit to work cert even though you clearly need a break and have for a while?


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