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When/why did SF become so pro EU ?

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    #212
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,554 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Batty Boy wrote: »
    I remember not long ago, SF were against every EU project/treaty/law/Euro currency, Nowadays their elected representatives are as europhile as FG, using expressions like "Ireland at the heart of Europe"

    Because Ireland has been kicking the UK around with the support of the EU for the last 3 years and the EU wants a border down the Irish sea.

    Not hard to see why.

    You could argue the EU aid of Ireland in this has done more to advance Irish unity than 30 years of IRA terror campaign.


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    #213
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,141 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    Facts like SF campaigning against joining the EEC?
    It would probably be easier to argue that Gerry was never in the IRA than that SF were ever remotely enthusiastic about Europe.

    All discussed in the thread already.


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    #214
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    FrancieBrady wrote: »

    While you are entitled to your opinion you have presented nothing of fact or substance to back up that opinion.

    Is it not a fact that Sinn Fein have campaigned against EVERY EU referendum and treaty including its initial accession?
    If this is a fact, then therefore its self evident.


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    #215
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,141 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    Is it not a fact that Sinn Fein have campaigned against EVERY EU referendum and treaty including its initial accession?
    If this is a fact, then therefore its self evident.

    Consistent with their policy of not wanting further integration or the EMU. I totally disagree with them but that has been their consistent position, a position they were still stating in February if you read the link to Carthy's speech at a stop Brexit rally when you claimed they had done an 'about face'.

    You stated they are Anti-EU and Eurosceptic...with nothing to back that up in fact.
    Did you read that list of 'Eurosceptic' parties in Ireland?


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    #216
    Ciaranis
    Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭Ciaranis


    Beasty wrote:
    I see them as two separate topics. This one is specific to the Achill decision and is currently focussed on communications surrounding that decision. The other thread is more of a "live topic" and merging the two potentially detracts from each discussion (it would also have the impact of removing certain posters from the discussion who have been banned from posting in one, but not both, thread)

    DeconSheridan wrote:
    So according to some journalists SF are funded by SOROS plenty of online material to keep you busy and then your eyes will open.

    *Citation needed


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    #217
    SafeSurfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Consistent with their policy of not wanting further integration or the EMU. I totally disagree with them but that has been their consistent position, a position they were still stating in February if you read the link to Carthy's speech at a stop Brexit rally when you claimed they had done an 'about face'.

    You stated they are Anti-EU and Eurosceptic...with nothing to back that up in fact.
    Did you read that list of 'Eurosceptic' parties in Ireland?


    This one where is says Sinn Fein are one of the biggest eurosceptic parties?

    [/https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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    #218
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,141 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Consistent with their policy of not wanting further integration or the EMU. I totally disagree with them but that has been their consistent position, a position they were still stating in February if you read the link to Carthy's speech at a stop Brexit rally when you claimed they had done an 'about face'.

    You stated they are Anti-EU and Eurosceptic...with nothing to back that up in fact.
    Did you read that list of 'Eurosceptic' parties in Ireland?


    This one where is says Sinn Fein are one of the biggest eurosceptic parties?

    [/https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

    Repeating this post as it has already been dealt with on the thread. Might be an idea to read it.
    My opinion is SF have evolved (as all parties do) and have long been happy to be in the EU while advocating reform of the EU. If you read the whole sentence you posted and pay attention to the tenses, what you posted entirely backs up what I ahve been saying.
    The biggest of these have been Sinn Féin and Solidarity–People Before Profit,[6][7][8] who each have members in elected office. Sinn Féin long opposed European integration,[2] but now describes itself as "critical, but supportive, of the EU"


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    #219
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 14,019 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Consistent with their policy of not wanting further integration or the EMU.

    Yes, a position that can be termed as anti-EU or euro-skeptic.
    You stated they are Anti-EU and Eurosceptic...with nothing to back that up in fact.
    Did you read that list of 'Eurosceptic' parties in Ireland?

    Apart from all the times they advocated a No vote any EU treaty that has been put before the people. Hell, they only decided to contest EU elections in the mid 80's. They shared a platform with Nigel Farage during the last EU treaty election we had.

    It is gas, though. You do not contest these facts, but you sure are insecure in what people call them out on.
    So, in your eyes they are and have never been anti-EU or euro skeptic but they are 'something else'. You do not contest the facts, but you want to argue the language people describe SF actions. :pac::pac:

    SF were never anti-EU
    Gerry Adam was never in the IRA
    Eurasia was never at war with Eastasia


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    #220
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,141 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    Yes, a position that can be termed as anti-EU or euro-skeptic.



    Apart from all the times they advocated a No vote any EU treaty that has been put before the people. Hell, they only decided to contest EU elections in the mid 80's. They shared a platform with Nigel Farage during the last EU treaty election we had.

    It is gas, though. You do not contest these facts, but you sure are insecure in what people call them out on.
    I don't and never have contested those facts. They have evolved their position, is what I have said.
    So, in your eyes they are and have never been anti-EU or euro skeptic but they are 'something else'. You do not contest the facts, but you want to argue the language people describe SF actions. :pac::pac:

    SF were never anti-EU
    Gerry Adam was never in the IRA
    Eurasia was never at war with Eastasia
    They are patently what they say they are, happy to be in the EU but want to reform it.
    As shown, even high level EU stalwarts such as Frans Timmermans and Guy Verhofstad say the same things.
    There is nothing 'anti' in wanting change...look at the politics in any country or organisation you want to see that.


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    #221
    DFGrange
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭DFGrange


    Sinn Fein are a lot like the Sugababes these days. It's a completely different set of "singers" under the same brand.


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    #222
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,267 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Repeating this post as it has already been dealt with on the thread. Might be an idea to read it.
    My opinion is SF have evolved (as all parties do) and have long been happy to be in the EU while advocating reform of the EU. If you read the whole sentence you posted and pay attention to the tenses, what you posted entirely backs up what I ahve been saying.

    Thank you for confirming once again that Sinn Fein are in the same camp of Euroscepticism as the UK Conservative and Unionist Party.

    The policies and positions of the two parties in respect of Europe over the decades are closer together than Sinn Fein is with any of the other Irish mainstream parties.

    Those are the facts. You can try and change the label, but those are the facts.


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    #223
    Bishop of hope
    Registered Users Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    It's possible to be pro eu and sceptical as well.
    The eu is not totally ideal and has become more dictatorial as it has evolved I think.
    SF, and anyone for that matter, are entitled to be critical of how it continues to evolve while still wanting to remain as part of it.
    Of course if membership of it becomes a tool to perhaps alienate NI from Britain and throw open the creak of light that might lean towards a UI, then I can't see why they shouldn't jump at it.


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    #224
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,141 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Thank you for confirming once again that Sinn Fein are in the same camp of Euroscepticism as the UK Conservative and Unionist Party.

    The policies and positions of the two parties in respect of Europe over the decades are closer together than Sinn Fein is with any of the other Irish mainstream parties.

    Those are the facts. You can try and change the label, but those are the facts.

    Are you just going to say that and present no back up yet again? Just post a 'The Shinners is the same as de Tories' shock jock headline? :D

    How are their policies and positions in respect of Europe in the 'same camp'?


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    #225
    DFGrange
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭DFGrange


    Bishop of hope wrote: »
    The eu is not totally ideal and has become more dictatorial as it has evolved I think.


    Apart from the lies spread by the anti-EU media (Daily Mail, Telegraph, Express etc.) in the UK, which permeates to Ireland far more than anyone would admit, what specifically has the EU done which you consider dictatorial?


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    #226
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,141 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bishop of hope wrote: »
    It's possible to be pro eu and sceptical as well.
    The eu is not totally ideal and has become more dictatorial as it has evolved I think.
    SF, and anyone for that matter, are entitled to be critical of how it continues to evolve while still wanting to remain as part of it.
    Of course if membership of it becomes a tool to perhaps alienate NI from Britain and throw open the creak of light that might lean towards a UI, then I can't see why they shouldn't jump at it.

    If you opened a thread and propounded the notion that because FF or FG were once anti LGBT and Women's rights (vociferously or 'rabidly' so) and proceeded to completely ignore the progression and evolution of those two parties (over much the same timeframe that SF evolved into a pro membership of the EU party) to the polar opposite position mean't that you 'suspected' they were still of that position, you would be rightfully laughed or carried out of the place.

    But, it's the Shinners - conspiracies everywhere. :)


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    #227
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,141 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Bishop of hope wrote: »
    It's possible to be pro eu and sceptical as well.

    Of course it is. There are many many MEPs who would be both for varying reasons.

    It happens in all political assemblies everywhere. To me it is an entirely healthy way to run anything.

    Of course it is not an accident that the same people shouting conspiracy here would be some of the same people who see no need for an 'opposition' or who are off the opinion that because they might never be in 'power' as such, that they are a useless and annoying sideshow and should fold up their tents and go away.

    They must have been in the loo when class was doing 'democracy'. :D


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    #228
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,473 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    If you opened a thread and propounded the notion that because FF or FG were once anti LGBT and Women's rights (vociferously or 'rabidly' so) and proceeded to completely ignore the progression and evolution of those two parties (over much the same timeframe that SF evolved into a pro membership of the EU party) to the polar opposite position mean't that you 'suspected' they were still of that position, you would be rightfully laughed or carried out of the place.

    But, it's the Shinners - conspiracies everywhere. :)

    Actually that's a great example of the "Shinners" actions, FF and FG would traditionally take opposing views, usually for political profit, when it came to LGBT, Women's rights, they both moved to the same side, rather than taking opposing views, as the social climate in the country changed (even to the extent of losing some of their elected members, which it must be said, SF also did).

    Whereas, the reality is that the "Shinners" will just blindly take up whatever position is in opposition to the DUP and Tories, regardless of what position they had before (30 years of hard no, has now become a hard yes "for some reason"). Similarly yourself, whatever the argument against the "Shinners" you will automatically take the opposite, you could say you were the most DUP-like in the arguments you make (given that SF will be similarly intransigent on the opposite side of the argument, so SF-like == DUP-like, but hopefully to make you realise that what you're posting is from the same page in the DUP and SF playbook).


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    #229
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,141 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    astrofool wrote: »
    Actually that's a great example of the "Shinners" actions, FF and FG would traditionally take opposing views, usually for political profit, when it came to LGBT, Women's rights, they both moved to the same side, rather than taking opposing views, as the social climate in the country changed (even to the extent of losing some of their elected members, which it must be said, SF also did).
    What an abjectly wrong read of the history of those issues.
    One of the main reasons reform in those areas took so long is that FG and FF were joined at the hip in opposition to reform.
    Whereas, the reality is that the "Shinners" will just blindly take up whatever position is in opposition to the DUP and Tories, regardless of what position they had before (30 years of hard no, has now become a hard yes "for some reason"). Similarly yourself, whatever the argument against the "Shinners" you will automatically take the opposite, you could say you were the most DUP-like in the arguments you make (given that SF will be similarly intransigent on the opposite side of the argument, so SF-like == DUP-like, but hopefully to make you realise that what you're posting is from the same page in the DUP and SF playbook).

    Which is it, the Tories and Unionists and SF are in alignment on Europe or they are taking different positions for political profit?

    The facts are there in the documentation presented, I asked for people to present evidence that they have been saying anything different for at least 20 years to what Carthy said in February.

    Nobody has presented that...yet we get the trite conspiracy stuff..'same as the Tories and Unionists', have spent decades campaigning to leave the EU' 'political opportunism due to Brexit' 'rabidly anti-EU' etc etc.


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    #230
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    SafeSurfer wrote: »
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Consistent with their policy of not wanting further integration or the EMU. I totally disagree with them but that has been their consistent position, a position they were still stating in February if you read the link to Carthy's speech at a stop Brexit rally when you claimed they had done an 'about face'.

    You stated they are Anti-EU and Eurosceptic...with nothing to back that up in fact.
    Did you read that list of 'Eurosceptic' parties in Ireland?


    This one where is says Sinn Fein are one of the biggest eurosceptic parties?

    [/https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

    whats wrong with being sceptical? if they were cynical then you;d have a point


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    #231
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Good to see you don't have the common decency to own up to a mistake. But instead it's more insults - good reflection on the character of the average SF cheerleader I guess :rolleyes:


    Both "Official" SF and "Provisional" SF actively campaigned against EU membership from the outset, and SF continued that for decades afterwards.

    Sinn Fein have included Irexit in their election literature during the period that Gerry Adams as party leader (you know - the guy who is currently a SF TD, and was the party leader less than 2 years ago) - or are you know going to double down on your nonsense and try to claim that SF in 2019 is a different party to the SF that Gerry Adams was the leader of.

    The revisionism and down-right denial of facts is setting new lows - even by the standards of the SF acolytes on here. Quite the achievement

    bagdad-bob.jpg

    You brew up whatever drama you want there .. im pretty sure people can read.

    what is patiently obvious is that SF have had the same stance since the 90s - 30 years ago. Its nothing new. Adams was leader of SF 30 years ago so as I say - get yer handbag out and create as much drama as you wish. I certainly wont be bothering to debate with you any further. gets quite boring.

    feel free to show where SF have said they support the idea of Irexit while your at it. What I can find says 'Sinn fein are "critical, but supportive, of the EU" and does not advocate withdrawal from the Union'. (basically what I've been saying in this thread)


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    #232
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Sinn Fein were against it from the mid-1950s to the early 1990s at the very least, if not for another decade.

    Are you denying that?

    are you denying you're talking 30-70 years ago?


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    #233
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,548 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    maccored wrote: »
    are you denying you're talking 30-70 years ago?

    Can you show whatever (presumably Parnell Square-issued) dictionary you have that defines "ALWAYS" as having a time limit?
    :pac:


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    #234
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Can you show whatever (presumably Parnell Square-issued) dictionary you have that defines "ALWAYS" as having a time limit?
    :pac:

    I did make the mistake of assuming you know your history alright.


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    #235
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,141 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Can you show whatever (presumably Parnell Square-issued) dictionary you have that defines "ALWAYS" as having a time limit?
    :pac:

    Can you show where SF have 'been campaigning for decades to leave the EU'?

    No need for a dictionary, just a bit of back up from real life would be nice for once.


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    #236
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Can you show where SF have 'been campaigning for decades to leave the EU'?

    No need for a dictionary, just a bit of back up from real life would be nice for once.

    I'll also ask for that info too - fourth time its been requested as far as i can see


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    #237
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,548 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    maccored wrote: »
    I did make the mistake of assuming you know your history alright.

    Indeed - you clearly have quite the revisionist grasp of it alright. :pac:

    You can poin, spin, spin all you want. Anyone who reads the thread can see exactly what sort of nonsense claims you made. Facts are obviously something that you'll never let get in the way of pro-SF propaganda.
    maccored wrote: »
    SF have always been pro-EU in regards being part of the EU.



    I guess when you can redefine "always" to only mean certain time periods it's gets easy to perform the mental gymnastics to convince yourself that "history" is whatever propaganda you'll think will benefit the cult party


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    #238
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,548 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Can you show where SF have 'been campaigning for decades to leave the EU'?

    No need for a dictionary, just a bit of back up from real life would be nice for once.


    There's been links to election & referendum documents from the 70s, 80s and 90s already in the thread.


    Are we back to the usual Francie deflections of repeatedly demanding that things be reposted and relinked ad-nausem, and repeatedly pretending that they haven't been linked - just to deflect from your comrade's commendable efforts are digging himself into an even deeper hole?


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    #239
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Good to see you don't have the common decency to own up to a mistake

    I have no problem owning up to having made a mistake, and I do own up to it. I should have used a simpler sentence so some of the people on this thread could follow what I meant.

    in my defence though, I didnt realise such people had such a terrible grasp on a history that occurred less than a few hundred miles away up the road. Still i do apologise for using the word 'always'. Didnt realise it would confuse that much.


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    #240
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    blackwhite wrote: »
    There's been links to election & referendum documents from the 70s, 80s and 90s already in the thread.


    Are we back to the usual Francie deflections of repeatedly demanding that things be reposted and relinked ad-nausem, and repeatedly pretending that they haven't been linked - just to deflect from your comrade's commendable efforts are digging himself into an even deeper hole?

    For the fifth time, can you show me a link to back up your claim to me that "Sinn Fein have included Irexit in their election literature during the period that Gerry Adams as party leader " ?

    yes or no? a simple link to Adams saying SF want Irexit will do fine.


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    #241
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,141 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blackwhite wrote: »
    There's been links to election & referendum documents from the 70s, 80s and 90s already in the thread.


    Are we back to the usual Francie deflections of repeatedly demanding that things be reposted and relinked ad-nausem, and repeatedly pretending that they haven't been linked - just to deflect from your comrade's commendable efforts are digging himself into an even deeper hole?

    Yes we are back to that.

    Where is there 'decades of campaigning to leave the EU'. YOU haven't posted a single one.


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