When/why did SF become so pro EU ?

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

You've mis-represented my post there Francie (again :rolleyes:)

For once, would you try and respond to what is actually posted instead of the endless straw-manning and deflection

They were opposed to membership until after the Maastrich vote. The first document indicating a shift in their attitude towards membership was publsihed in 1994.

However - from 1994 up until quite close to the UK Brexit Referendum, they were actively opposed to every EU Treaty and remained opposed to nearly everything that the EU was doing.
They no longer opposed membership - but they were in no way supportive of the EU itself (hint - which is what I posted).
It was only when the Brexit sh*t hit the fan, so to speak, that SF have actually been pivoted to supporting the EU in most of it's roles and functions.

Read very carefully what I am asking for:

Can you show were they were 'actively campaigning to leave the EU for decades' or not? We know they did at 1989 elections.

Last time I'll ask and I'll just throw my hat at it.

I could also ask you to demonstrate this apparent u-turn when Brexit happened, but doubtless you will twist and turn and pivot away from what you were actually asked too.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'd say it is moot because you can't answer, to be honest.

Farage has been floundering around politics attaching himself to anything that will promote his aims. Here he is spouting traditional SF politics at one point:



Natural bedfellows alright!

You know Francie, you really argue some absurdities.

I have set out clearly how the EU policy of Sinn Fein and at various times UKIP and the Tory Party have aligned. I have never once suggested that their policy on a united Ireland aligns, yet you counter argue on that absurd basis.

Have you no answer but to furiously make new strawmen every five minutes?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nowt like a bit of invective when all else fails.

You are absolutely right, and it was in only the 29th post of this thread that we saw the first incarnation of this type of invective......

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, I said nothing about what maccored had said, he can answer for himself.

I 'lambasted' the usual trite, false comments being made by others. And laughing at those who demand constantly that this party change and when they have demonstratively evolved a position over 30 - 40 years call them 'populists' and 'hypocrites'.

It is fantastical stuff really, if you'd think about it for a minute.

......people in glasshouses and all that.

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Read very carefully what I am asking for:

Can you show were they were 'actively campaigning to leave the EU for decades' or not? We know they did at 1989 elections.

Asked and answered already Francie. Just more of your usual BS of ignoring anything that doesn't suit. Grow up for once would you :rolleyes:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111718151&postcount=258

The 70s and the 80s are two distinct decades. Even you must be capable understanding that.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I could also ask you to demonstrate this apparent u-turn when Brexit happened, but doubtless you will twist and turn and pivot away from what you were actually asked too.

There's a marked difference in SF's attitude to EU leaders and policy makes over the last 3-4 years.

Take the repeated anti-EU rhetoric spouted in the 2008-2013/14 period by Sinn Féin and contrast it to any utterances from them about the EU now.

Only the most blinkered of SF acolytes would pretend there hasn't been a big shift in attitude from the party in the past 5/6 years - but then I guess I must remember the track records of who we have to deal with on here :pac:

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You know Francie, you really argue some absurdities.

I have set out clearly how the EU policy of Sinn Fein and at various times UKIP and the Tory Party have aligned. I have never once suggested that their policy on a united Ireland aligns, yet you counter argue on that absurd basis.

Have you no answer but to furiously make new strawmen every five minutes?

You suggested they are 'heading to the same destination'...entirely ignoring that SF have for a long long time accepted that we should be at 'the heart of Europe'.

UKIP and Farage have NEVER been of that opinion. Any alignment is co-incidental therefore and should, by anyone with an ounce of political sense, never be compared.

FrancieBrady

There's a marked difference in SF's attitude to EU leaders and policy makes over the last 3-4 years.

Take the repeated anti-EU rhetoric spouted in the 2008-2013/14 period by Sinn Féin and contrast it to any utterances from them about the EU now.

Only the most blinkered of SF acolytes would pretend there hasn't been a big shift in attitude from the party in the past 5/6 years - but then I guess I must remember the track records of who we have to deal with on here :pac:

Here is Matt Carthy MEP in August this year:

Sinn Féin MEP Matt Carthy has said that the European Parliament needs to be radically reformed if it is to earn the trust of citizens across Europe. Carthy was speaking at a debate entitled “Is the social Heart of Europe still beating?” during the Roger Casement Summer School in Dun Laoghaire on Saturday.

The Midlands North West representative told the gathering that “The European Union was an economic project from the start and one that was led by a European elite as opposed to the people of Europe. The people of the European member states while permitting this to happen had little input into how it developed. While in many cases the European Union has had positive impacts on the lives of the people of Europe, the social agenda was never at the heart of the European project. It was first and foremost an economic project serving the economic interest of the large European states.

On the other hand, it has been progressive left parties like Sinn Féin who have articulated an alternative way, a better way, a more democratic way. Sometimes it has been difficult to have this alternative vision heard primarily because any criticism of the EU is brushed aside as being ‘anti-European’.”.

Where is the 'about face' stuff you are talking about?

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Here is Matt Carthy MEP in August this year:


Where is the 'about face' stuff you are talking about?

Compare that to the Syrzia-flag waving anti-EU rhetoric of 5-10 years ago. A major shift away from portraying the EU as the big bad boogeymen of everything that's wrong in Europe.



You aren't even able to keep yourself consistent anymore Francie. In one post you are trying to argue how SF have evolved their position. In the next you try to claim they haven't changed at all
Need to make up your mind a bit there

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

Compare that to the Syrzia-flag waving anti-EU rhetoric of 5-10 years ago. A major shift away from portraying the EU as the big bad boogeymen of everything that's wrong in Europe.



You aren't even able to keep yourself consistent anymore Francie. In one post you are trying to argue how SF have evolved their position. In the next you try to claim they haven't changed at all
Need to make up your mind a bit there

This is from Gerry Adams in 2008:

“It is important given the role of the European parliament and of the EU in the lives of the people of this island in the years ahead. Europe impacts on so many areas of ordinary peoples lives and often the impact is not a good one.

“The Union is moving in an overly centralised, privatised and militarised direction. Sinn Féin's approach to Europe is rooted in our republicanism. And it is this that marks us out from all of the other political parties. We want to see a social Europe and a democratic, citizen based EU. Throughout the union there are many millions who share our view.

A HUGE difference to what Carthy was saying in August of this year???

What the f***.

What can I do here, you just rant something and then don't back it up and your head goes into the sand.

There were many people critical of how the Greeks were treated as there were about how we were treated. The EU is not immune from criticism once you join it.

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is from Gerry Adams in 2008:



A HUGE difference to what Carthy was saying in August of this year???

What the f***.

What can I do here, you just rant something and then don't back it up and your head goes into the sand.

There were many people critical of how the Greeks were treated as there were about how we were treated. The EU is not immune from criticism once you join it.

From your own two quotes - do you even read what's in them?


Gerry: Europe impacts on so many areas of ordinary peoples lives and often the impact is not a good one.

Matt: While in many cases the European Union has had positive impacts on the lives of the people of Europe, the social agenda was never at the heart of the European project.



Whilst both are from individual speeches taken out of context, they demonstrate the big shift in tone from how SF speak about the EU.

The rhetoric used be that the EU was the big bad boogeyman that was having a negative impact on people, and needed to be fundamentally changed.

Now the rhetoric is that the EU has been largely a positive influence on people, but change is needed so it can go about things better.

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

From your own two quotes - do you even read what's in them?


Gerry: Europe impacts on so many areas of ordinary peoples lives and often the impact is not a good one.

Matt: While in many cases the European Union has had positive impacts on the lives of the people of Europe, the social agenda was never at the heart of the European project.



Whilst both are from individual speeches taken out of context, they demonstrate the big shift in tone from how SF speak about the EU.

The rhetoric used be that the EU was the big bad boogeyman that was having a negative impact on people, and needed to be fundamentally changed.

Now the rhetoric is that the EU has been largely a positive influence on people, but change is needed so it can go about things better.

So no 'big bad boogeymen' in this from Carthy in August then?

“People across Europe are rejecting the EU model that has created winners and losers, precarious employment, wealth inequality, debt dependent growth and privatised public services. A failure to recognise this will pose a threat to the future of the European Union itself.”

'Positive influence' rhetoric there alright!

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So no 'big bad boogeymen' in this from Carthy in August then?



'Positive influence' rhetoric there alright!

“Positive Impact” are the words that Carthy used

Are we going back to the “he said it, but meant something completely different” bolloxology again?

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

“Positive Impact” are the words that Carthy used

Are we going back to the “he said it, but meant something completely different” bolloxology again?

He said,

While in many cases the European Union has had positive impacts...

Many cases...but not all. Exactly the same thing Adams said years before.

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He said,



Many cases...but not all. Exactly the same thing Adams said years before.

No - the opposite of what Gerry said actually.

Gerry highlights the EU as mostly bad, Matt as mostly good.

Do you even read your own posts?


Gerry: Europe impacts on so many areas of ordinary peoples lives and often the impact is not a good one[\U]

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

No - the opposite of what Gerry said actually.

Gerry highlights the EU as mostly bad, Matt as mostly good.

Do you even read your own posts?


Gerry: Europe impacts on so many areas of ordinary peoples lives and often the impact is not a good one[\U]

Beezarre!

I think you have taken up a position and are now desperately trying to shoehorn stuff in to fit that position.

Where running candidates in an election becomes 'actively campaigning to leave the EU'
And where cherrypicked phrases are hit with a sledgehammer a few times to get them to fit a narrative. A narrative another phrase in the same bloody speech blows out of the water.

You are quite an act blackwhite.

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Beezarre!

I think you have taken up a position and are now desperately trying to shoehorn stuff in to fit that position.

Where running candidates in an election becomes 'actively campaigning to leave the EU'
And where cherrypicked phrases are hit with a sledgehammer a few times to get them to fit a narrative. A narrative another phrase in the same bloody speech blows out of the water.

You are quite an act blackwhite.

Including “a negotiated exit from the European Community” in your election literature is campaigning to leave. Yet another example of Francie and pals magic dictionaries?

Or more likely - another example of dishonesty - something’s never change. :rolleyes:


Have you decided yet if your argument is that Sinn Fein haven’t changed their position - or that they have changed. You’ve tried to argue both at different stages on this thread. Are you just trying to be contrarian, or just confused about what the party line is supposed to be at this stage.

I guess when all you do is defend, deflect and blindly parrot the party line it must get a bit tough to keep track of what you’re supposed to be arguing today

nkl12xtw5goz70

"The economic and fiscal policies of the European Union have had catastrophic effects on the lives of many of its citizens" — Sinn Féin MEP Liadh Ní Riada, 2016

Pro-EU to the core.

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

Including “a negotiated exit from the European Community” in your election literature is campaigning to leave. Yet another example of Francie and pals magic dictionaries?

Or more likely - another example of dishonesty - something’s never change. :rolleyes:


Have you decided yet if your argument is that Sinn Fein haven’t changed their position - or that they have changed. You’ve tried to argue both at different stages on this thread. Are you just trying to be contrarian, or just confused about what the party line is supposed to be at this stage.

I guess when all you do is defend, deflect and blindly parrot the party line it must get a bit tough to keep track of what you’re supposed to be arguing today

My argument has not changed an iota since the thread started, that is Sinn Fein are not 'europhiles like FG' and that their position on the EU has evolved from being actively against it to being advocates of remaining in it. I presented links and back-up that shows that clearly.

You claimed that the had 'actively campaigned to leave the EU for decades' and presented nothing to back that up.

In 1989 they 'actively' tried to get people elected as MEP's while having an aspiration to negotiste an exit from the EC.

FF have an aspiration to unite Ireland but have they ever 'actively' campigned for that? No they haven't.

The fact is SF have never 'actively' campaigned to leave the EC the EEC or the EU. In fact the have never even 'actively' campaigned for a referendum on the matter.
They were anti the EC for a period though and actively campaigned against joining it.

You are a great man to pinpoint other people's words for scrutiny, but you need to review two in your own statement - 'actively' and 'campaign' because you certainly haven't backed them up and I can find zero evidence of any 'active campaigning to leave the EC', EEC or EU.

markodaly

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

"The economic and fiscal policies of the European Union have had catastrophic effects on the lives of many of its citizens" — Sinn Féin MEP Liadh Ní Riada, 2016

Pro-EU to the core.

Eurasia was never at war with Eastasia.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Eurasia was never at war with Eastasia.

Or party that has always been openly and transparently critical of aspects of the EU in open and transparent criticism of the EU SHOCKER!


How does that sit with claims that SF have had 'an about face' on the EU since 'themum's yada yada yad....'


Youse are all over the shop here!

markodaly

maccored

blackwhite wrote: »

If you cry bullying when someone points out your repeated lying then I'd hate to see how you cope in the real world.
Anytime any facts or links are posted that challenge your cult-like mindset you throw a strop. Same reaction anytime anything that isn't fawning over SF gets posted.

You really love making up bull**** when your point has been constantly disproven. Keep at it - Im sure you think it makes you look cool.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

What is your point? Here is Leo and Mary 'sharing' a platform to discuss a United Ireland. If I used that to make a case that Leo and SF were in cahoots on a UI, you would be foaming at the mouth to lambast me.

blanch152

maccored wrote: »

You really love making up bull**** when your point has been constantly disproven. Keep at it - Im sure you think it makes you look cool.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nowt like a bit of invective when all else fails.

Francie, another example of what you were posting about.

Or are you going to tell me that you fully understand and excuse what that post says?

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Francie, another example of what you were posting about.

Or are you going to tell me that you fully understand and excuse what that post says?

What?

LuckyLloyd

Brexit has changed the minds of many political parties and voters across the EU on the value of the EU project. An unintended positive consequence, certainly for the eurosceptic movement suffering reverses at this year’s EU parliament elections. It’s a positive shift for SF that should be welcomed.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

Clearly invective is only to be condemned when it is aimed at a SF-supporting poster, not when it is coming from a SF-supporting poster.

Or maybe the definition of invective changes depending on who is making it.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Clearly invective is only to be condemned when it is aimed at a SF-supporting poster, not when it is coming from a SF-supporting poster.

Or maybe the definition of invective changes depending on who is making it.

I responded to what was an attack on me rather than the post I had made in that post (see the quoted post).

I am not a mod and don't comment on personal spats between others. If you have a problem with a post, report it, don't ask me to sort it out.

maccored

too many handbags at dawn posts in this thread

FreudianSlippers

blanch152 wrote: »

Clearly invective is only to be condemned when it is aimed at a SF-supporting poster, not when it is coming from a SF-supporting poster.

Or maybe the definition of invective changes depending on who is making it.

Silly. Nobody on here that constantly posts in support of SF is a "SF supporter"; I thought you would know that by now!

FrancieBrady

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Silly. Nobody on here that constantly posts in support of SF is a "SF supporter"; I thought you would know that by now!

I don't support SF in terms of voting for them or as a member.
I do support them when I read trite, ill-informed, even more ill-researched lies coming from a general anti-republican, anti-Irish citizens living in the north, or partitionist base on here.

Take it or leave it really.