When/why did SF become so pro EU ?

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

How?

Founded in 1905, Sinn Fein's raison d'être was separatist nationalism. It opposed Ireland's accession to the EU in 1972, refused to send politicians to Europe before the mid-80s, and was still calling for Ireland's withdrawal from the EU by the end of the '80s. By your own account, it only warmed up to EU membership in 2005, although it has continued to oppose every EU treaty put before the Irish people.

Even if one accepts your highly dubious assertion that Sinn Fein has been "pro-EU" since 2005, that's only a fraction of the party's existence.

To be accurate the EU came into being in 1993.

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

How?

Founded in 1905, Sinn Fein's raison d'être was separatist nationalism. It opposed Ireland's accession to the EU in 1972, refused to send politicians to Europe before the mid-80s, and was still calling for Ireland's withdrawal from the EU by the end of the '80s. By your own account, it only warmed up to EU membership in 2005, although it has continued to oppose every EU treaty put before the Irish people.

Even if one accepts your highly dubious assertion that Sinn Fein has been "pro-EU" since 2005, that's only a fraction of the party's existence .

Dear me, where would you start with this one?

Tell you what, I think I'll pass on it.

I'll be equally 'pedantic' and refuse to recognise some stuff and claim (as somebody has already said) that as the 'EU' only came into existence in 1993, that maccored is actually totally correct in saying that SF was 'never anti- 'EU'.

:D

blackwhite wrote: »

You seem to be the one who is pretty damn ignorant of history - and the English language by the sounds of things.


Does the word "always" have some special meaning that only you are privy to?



"Always" of course, excluding when they campaigned against joining the EC, or when they included leaving the EC in their election campaign literature




Something tells me maccored's version of "history" looks something like the below - dependent on whatever spin he's trying to push

I hear you cant educate bacon.

As Ive stated numerous times, as which you would be aware of had you any inkling of what you were talking about, the current version of SF have supported the EU. Are you going to try and tell me that the SF that DeValera was in has the same ideals as the SF of today? You may as well be because thats how silly your argument here is. The point remains - Sinn Fein havent changed their stance in at least 20 years so its nothing new. They have been critical of the EU. They have been skeptical rather than cynical.

I think your pedantry outlines the weakness of your argument.

maccored wrote: »

I hear you cant educate bacon.

As Ive stated numerous times, as which you would be aware of had you any inkling of what you were talking about, the current version of SF have supported the EU. Are you going to try and tell me that the SF that DeValera was in has the same ideals as the SF of today? You may as well be because thats how silly your argument here is. The point remains - Sinn Fein havent changed their stance in at least 20 years so its nothing new. They have been critical of the EU. They have been skeptical rather than cynical.

I think your pedantry outlines the weakness of your argument.

maccored wrote: »

SF have always been pro-EU in regards being part of the EU. They have though, exercised their democratic right to object to certain EU treaties. Maybe they're meant to like everything the EU puts forward? Is that what 'Pro EU' means?

Those two posts do not say the same thing, no matter how you interpret them.

blanch152 wrote: »

Except that maccored never said that Sinn Fein was "never anti-EU".

He made a different claim, that Sinn Fein was "always pro-EU".

There is a nuanced difference, but it is a clear sign of spinning when someone ignores a nuanced difference.

Well you can go on about 'nuances' as much as you like.

As far as I am concerned maccored has clarified more than adequately, what he meant and I would agree with him. The actual documented facts tend to agree with him too.

A 'suspicion' that a conspiracy exists and SF are hiding an anti-EU agenda doesn't really count as a 'fact'.

maccored wrote: »

I hear you cant educate bacon.

As Ive stated numerous times, as which you would be aware of had you any inkling of what you were talking about, the current version of SF have supported the EU. Are you going to try and tell me that the SF that DeValera was in has the same ideals as the SF of today? You may as well be because thats how silly your argument here is. The point remains - Sinn Fein havent changed their stance in at least 20 years so its nothing new. They have been critical of the EU. They have been skeptical rather than cynical.

I think your pedantry outlines the weakness of your argument.

Good to see you don't have the common decency to own up to a mistake. But instead it's more insults - good reflection on the character of the average SF cheerleader I guess :rolleyes:


Both "Official" SF and "Provisional" SF actively campaigned against EU membership from the outset, and SF continued that for decades afterwards.

Sinn Fein have included Irexit in their election literature during the period that Gerry Adams as party leader (you know - the guy who is currently a SF TD, and was the party leader less than 2 years ago) - or are you know going to double down on your nonsense and try to claim that SF in 2019 is a different party to the SF that Gerry Adams was the leader of.



The revisionism and down-right denial of facts is setting new lows - even by the standards of the SF acolytes on here. Quite the achievement

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So link to the data that shows SF campaigning against EU membership for decades after.

I would be genuinely interested in seeing it.

Sinn Fein were against it from the mid-1950s to the early 1990s at the very least, if not for another decade.

Are you denying that?

I am not so sure what the big deal is.

SF have always been a Nationalist party and therefore any pan internationalist organisation who exercised control over Ireland they objected to, as it ceded national authority.

The EU have traditionally been in the cross hairs of SF, along with organisations like NATO and even joining the UN, which if I recall, in 1947 the SF of the day objected to.

So, like all Nationalist parties they espouse nationalist ideals. The big difference being that SF are traditionally left wing, which internationally is odd for a nationalist party.
Of course, the biggest motivator for SF policy is often, if the Brits are doing one thing, we will do the opposite.
So, now that the UK are leaving the EU, SF changes the color of its pants to suit the present day narrative.

Again, this is not a big deal per say.
However, the Orwellian speak of people defending this about turn as if people do not have a right to call out what SF are doing, is quite bizarre and somewhat amusing.

But it does make for loads of meme opportunities.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The evidence shows (see links earlier) that SF were happy to be seen as a party that wanted to be 'at the heart of the EU' at least as far back as 2005 if not long before..

More like as far back as 2015 when the Brexit vote happened.

We all know the close ties SF had with Syriza during the Greece crisis.
They backed the wrong horse there. Pierce Doherty was given loads of airtime berating Merkel and the EU

They campaigned against the Lisbon Treaty in 2007 and the European Fiscal Compact in 2012, where they shared a platform on national radio with one of the key architects of Brexit and founder of UKIP, Nigal Farage.

SF may say they wanted to be at the heart of Europe but of course to judge one by their actions, they most certainly negate that position quite clearly.

As usual, when it comes to SF, don't pi$$ on my leg and tell me its raining.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They never hid their objection to further integration. As shown as well, that is not a unique position among people who would be considered committed Europeans, regardless of what spin you want to put on it.

True, yet they never wanted to join in the first place either.
When we did join the EEC, they ALWAYS campaigned against further integration.... a record that is unbroken to this day.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That would be called 'consistent' by others. And it seems if you look at what Fram Tmmermans was saying and what Brexit has done, the EU will take note of that finally and have a conversation about it's direction.

SF consistently Anti-EU and euro-skeptic, yes I can agree with you there.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why not go all in and add 'rabidly'?

They are not even classified as Eurosceptic according to this,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Eurosceptic_parties_in_Ireland

While you are entitled to your opinion you have presented nothing of fact or substance to back up that opinion.

By the way, would you guys classify a political party in the south that has consistently campaigned for constitutional change and a change in the direction the country is taking as 'anti-Ireland'?

Facts like SF campaigning against joining the EEC?
It would probably be easier to argue that Gerry was never in the IRA than that SF were ever remotely enthusiastic about Europe.