When/why did SF become so pro EU ?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you opened a thread and propounded the notion that because FF or FG were once anti LGBT and Women's rights (vociferously or 'rabidly' so) and proceeded to completely ignore the progression and evolution of those two parties (over much the same timeframe that SF evolved into a pro membership of the EU party) to the polar opposite position mean't that you 'suspected' they were still of that position, you would be rightfully laughed or carried out of the place.

But, it's the Shinners - conspiracies everywhere.

Incorrect analogy.

If you posted in the fourth post of said thread that FF were always in favour of LGBT rights, that you would correctly be laughed out of the thread.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Incorrect analogy.

If you posted in the fourth post of said thread that FF were always in favour of LGBT rights, that you would correctly be laughed out of the thread.

The poster has explained and withdrawn the 'always' remark.

What is 'incorrect' about the analogy? It is exactly the same thing to my mind. FG and FF EVOLVED to a position of support, as political parties do, all the time.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What about saying and proving with links (You know those things that back up what you are saying) that 'SF's position on the EU has evolved from initially opposing it to being one of support for membership' is saying their history is one of 'staunch supporters'?

You don't have to stoop to lying about what is being said. It does you no favours.

I have acknowledged that Sinn Fein have moved, yet you didn't even thank my post, let alone respond in agreement.

blanch152 wrote: »

To be fair to Francie, Sinn Fein did start off in the 1970s as the Irish equivalent of UKIP when it comes to the EU, their position has shifted over the years. By the early 1990s, they would have been happiest as a Tory Brexiteer. Nowadays, they are most like a middle-of-the-road Tory from middle England, vaguely unhappy with EU, but not really sure why, and who could live with either Remain or Leave.

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

The irony of pedantry.

While it seems that "Irexit" cannot be taken as shorthand meaning of "a negotiated withdrawal from the EC", "always been pro-EU" can be taken as a shorthand meaning for the same.

what are you on about? Do you have any idea what pedantry means? Find me any reference to Irexit being used as a term in 1989. If you cant then please, come up with something relevant.

maccored

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The poster has explained and withdrawn the 'always' remark.

That doesnt seem to matter in the 'whataboutry wars' than blanch152 is engaged in. Sign of a weak argument.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I have acknowledged that Sinn Fein have moved, yet you didn't even thank my post, let alone respond in agreement.

What?

I was replying to Facehugger there.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The poster has explained and withdrawn the 'always' remark.

What is 'incorrect' about the analogy? It is exactly the same thing to my mind. FG and FF EVOLVED to a position of support, as political parties do, all the time.

It is an incorrect analogy because your example of an OP bears no relationship to the OP of the thread. On the other hand, my analogy of the fourth post of such a thread, has a direct analogy in the fourth post of this thread.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you opened a thread and propounded the notion that because FF or FG were once anti LGBT and Women's rights (vociferously or 'rabidly' so) and proceeded to completely ignore the progression and evolution of those two parties (over much the same timeframe that SF evolved into a pro membership of the EU party) to the polar opposite position mean't that you 'suspected' they were still of that position, you would be rightfully laughed or carried out of the place.

But, it's the Shinners - conspiracies everywhere.

Batty Boy wrote: »

I remember not long ago, SF were against every EU project/treaty/law/Euro currency, Nowadays their elected representatives are as europhile as FG, using expressions like "Ireland at the heart of Europe"

blanch152

maccored wrote: »

I have no problem owning up to having made a mistake, and I do own up to it. I should have used a simpler sentence so some of the people on this thread could follow what I meant.

in my defence though, I didnt realise such people had such a terrible grasp on a history that occurred less than a few hundred miles away up the road. Still i do apologise for using the word 'always'. Didnt realise it would confuse that much.

Always isn't exactly a confusing word or phrase. It has a very simple meaning.

It took me a while, but I realised that your apology was straight out of the Trump or Johnson playbook.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

It is an incorrect analogy because your example of an OP bears no relationship to the OP of the thread. On the other hand, my analogy of the fourth post of such a thread, has a direct analogy in the fourth post of this thread.

Fair enough.
I wasn't specifically referencing the opening thread here, rather some the subsequent content of this thread.

Doesn't take away from the analogy though.

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The poster has explained and withdrawn the 'always' remark.

After 3 days of denying there was any mistake, and throwing abuse at anyone who dared question him.

If that's what you think is reasonable behaviour then I guess it explains a lot :pac:

Roversfan1

Sinn Fein think that the only way to love your culture and country is to hate the one closest to your own next door.

Every party in Ireland is left leaning and pro EU.

maccored

blackwhite wrote: »

After 3 days of denying there was any mistake, and throwing abuse at anyone who dared question him.

If that's what you think is reasonable behaviour then I guess it explains a lot :pac:

Abuse? Did you read your own posts? Is it abuse to point out you had no idea of the history of the party you were talking about?

Its been point out numerous times now that SF have been supportive of the EU for at least 20 years. Thats the OPs question answered. Instead of the end of thread we have you and blanch talking rubbish and posting stuff from 1989 which you claim is SF supporting IRexit (time travellers that they must be).

blanch152

maccored wrote: »

Abuse? Did you read your own posts? Is it abuse to point out you had no idea of the history of the party you were talking about?

Its been point out numerous times now that SF have been supportive of the EU for at least 20 years. Thats the OPs question answered. Instead of the end of thread we have you and blanch talking rubbish and posting stuff from 1989 which you claim is SF supporting IRexit (time travellers that they must be).

Sinn Fein have not been pro-EU at any time, let alone always.

Like the Tories, they have tolerated EU membership, opposing every new Treaty, oppposing ever further union, complaining about directives etc. Sure, Sinn Fein don't like the open market and State Aid ones, while the Tories oppose bendy bananas, but the underlying principle of indifference to the EU is there.

I would accept that since 1989, Sinn Fein are no longer anti-EU, but I would not describe them as pro-EU. On the continuum between those two, they are parked in the middle with their Tory bedfellows.

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

After 3 days of denying there was any mistake, and throwing abuse at anyone who dared question him.

If that's what you think is reasonable behaviour then I guess it explains a lot :pac:

Well, if I was arsed going back, I would say at least 2 days ago I posted that I was happy with how maccored explained and clarified what he meant.

Why he had to keep doing it is an issue for you guys.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein have not been pro-EU at any time, let alone always.

Like the Tories, they have tolerated EU membership, opposing every new Treaty, oppposing ever further union, complaining about directives etc. Sure, Sinn Fein don't like the open market and State Aid ones, while the Tories oppose bendy bananas, but the underlying principle of indifference to the EU is there.

I would accept that since 1989, Sinn Fein are no longer anti-EU, but I would not describe them as pro-EU. On the continuum between those two, they are parked in the middle with their Tory bedfellows.

Are you trying to get a rise out of the Tory comparison. Because it actually makes no sense whatsoever.

Unless you can again,(second time of asking for this) point to some ACTUAL fecking data that shows their attitudes to the EU emanate from the same place.
As may granny used to say, there is more than one way to skin a goose.

blackwhite

maccored wrote: »

Abuse? Did you read your own posts? Is it abuse to point out you had no idea of the history of the party you were talking about?

And funnily enough anyone who contributed the the thread has a hell of a lot more understanding of history that you've demonstrated :pac::pac:

maccored wrote: »

SF have always been pro-EU in regards being part of the EU.

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, if I was arsed going back, I would say at least 2 days ago I posted that I was happy with how maccored explained and clarified what he meant.

Why he had to keep doing it is an issue for you guys.

"Francie in backing up SF supporter shocker" :pac::pac::pac:


Given the list of "explanations" you've claimed to deem acceptable on here over the years that isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

"Francie in backing up SF supporter shocker" :pac::pac::pac:


Given the list of "explanations" you've claimed to deem acceptable on here over the years that isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.

Nowt like a bit of invective when all else fails.

maccored

blackwhite wrote: »

And funnily enough anyone who contributed the the thread has a hell of a lot more understanding of history that you've demonstrated :pac::pac:

well at least the rest of us know when Irexit appeared - and it wasnt in 1989.

Unless you can argue with the fact that SF have been supportive of the EU for at least a few decades at this stage, then do me a favour and stop posting the handbag material. keep your drama to yourself. cheers.

blackwhite

maccored wrote: »

well at least the rest of us know when Irexit appeared - and it wasnt in 1989.

Unless you can argue with the fact that SF have been supportive of the EU for at least a few decades at this stage, then do me a favour and stop posting the handbag material. keep your drama to yourself. cheers.

Sinn Fein had not been, in any way, supportive of the EU until the mid 2010s when the madness in the UK helped focus their minds.

They've opposed every single development of the EU since it's inception, and it's only following a period of navel-gazing after the Maastricht Treaty was passed in 1994 (thanks to Francie for the JSTOR link earlier in the thread that confirmed the turning point) that they've even been willing to accept EU/EC membership.

You can stop playing the childish rubbish (although I guess you've never done in the past, so not sure why to expect it now) about Irexit.
Every single person with even half a brain knows what the phrase means and all you do is, yet again, show yourself up by acting the child.

Then again - seeing it took you 3 days to realise what the word "always" actually means, maybe I'm expecting a bit too much.

debok

Roger_007 wrote: »

SF have opposed our membership of the EU right from the beginning. They opposed our joining the EEC, as it was then, and have opposed every treaty since.
However, SF are now a political party as opposed to just the public voice of the IRA, which is what they used to be. They are now just interested in getting votes. Most Irish people are in favour of EU membership, so that's where the votes are. They are just opportunists.
There is also the fact that the DUP want Brexit so SF had to be on the opposite side, particularly in NI.

So would you rather they stayed as the IRA voice so you could say there terrorists or evolve . So a political party just being interested in votes is a bad thing. Surely the point of a political party who wants to be in government need votes. Surely all the announcements of projects by fine Gael the last few weeks is just about getting votes because most if them won't happen once there elected. FF or Fg every election , scandal after scandal yet sinn Fein are the opportunist even though they've never been in power.

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

Sinn Fein had not been, in any way, supportive of the EU until the mid 2010s when the madness in the UK helped focus their minds.

They've opposed every single development of the EU since it's inception, and it's only following a period of navel-gazing after the Maastricht Treaty was passed in 1994 (thanks to Francie for the JSTOR link earlier in the thread that confirmed the turning point) that they've even been willing to accept EU/EC membership.

The Maastricht treaty was in 1992.

You read the JSTOR link and still maintained they actively campaigned to leave the EU for decades after we joined it?
If you read that link you would see a party firstly anti-EC and then struggling to find a way to advance politically and marry the EU to it's principles.

Did you also miss the bit about O'Broin's and Hanna of the SDLP' exchange in where |O'Broin said
'even if you don't like parts of the EU, the worst thing you can do is stay outside it. The worst thing to do is adopt a Euro-sceptic approach...'

That was written in..wait for it - 2004.

Take the blinkers off for a bit blackwhite.

FrancieBrady

debok wrote: »

So would you rather they stayed as the IRA voice so you could say there terrorists or evolve . So a political party just being interested in votes is a bad thing. Surely the point of a political party who wants to be in government need votes. Surely all the announcements of projects by fine Gael the last few weeks is just about getting votes because most if them won't happen once there elected. FF or Fg every election , scandal after scandal yet sinn Fein are the opportunist even though they've never been in power.

We'd be in a sorry place if FG and FF didn't evolve from their political and social stances of the 40's 50's and 60's.

Anyone complaining about that? Nope...and rightly so.

maccored

blackwhite wrote: »

Sinn Fein had not been, in any way, supportive of the EU until the mid 2010s when the madness in the UK helped focus their minds.

They've opposed every single development of the EU since it's inception, and it's only following a period of navel-gazing after the Maastricht Treaty was passed in 1994 (thanks to Francie for the JSTOR link earlier in the thread that confirmed the turning point) that they've even been willing to accept EU/EC membership.

You can stop playing the childish rubbish (although I guess you've never done in the past, so not sure why to expect it now) about Irexit.
Every single person with even half a brain knows what the phrase means and all you do is, yet again, show yourself up by acting the child.

Then again - seeing it took you 3 days to realise what the word "always" actually means, maybe I'm expecting a bit too much.

No substance again. You seem to be making up your own version of history there - then again, thats not surprising as its the only way any of your points make sense . Im done here. Can be arsed with the bully boy tactics and the made up history and the fudging about Irexit. You were caught out and all youve done since is spin your wheels. off you go big lad.

SafeSurfer

Gerry Adams objection to the EU was because:

“We are critical of the European Union because of the democratic deficit”.

Gerry doesn’t do irony.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you trying to get a rise out of the Tory comparison. Because it actually makes no sense whatsoever.

Unless you can again,(second time of asking for this) point to some ACTUAL fecking data that shows their attitudes to the EU emanate from the same place.
As may granny used to say, there is more than one way to skin a goose.

You don't have to start from the same place to end up in the same destination, hence Mary-Lou and Nigel Farage being on the same platform.

So, your question is moot.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nowt like a bit of invective when all else fails.

maccored wrote: »

then do me a favour and stop posting the handbag material. keep your drama to yourself. cheers.

maccored wrote: »

You were caught out and all youve done since is spin your wheels. off you go big lad..

You know something Francie, this is one time I agree with you.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You don't have to start from the same place to end up in the same destination, hence Mary-Lou and Nigel Farage being on the same platform.

So, your question is moot.

I'd say it is moot because you can't answer, to be honest.

Farage has been floundering around politics attaching himself to anything that will promote his aims. Here he is spouting traditional SF politics at one point:

"Worst of all," he spat. "WORST... OF... ALL, the EU have indicated that if Northern Ireland would opt to leave the United Kingdom, and join up with Éire, there would be absolutely no problem with a new United Ireland becoming part of the European Union.

"So what they are doing to try and make Brexit negotiations difficult for this government is they are prepared to stoke Irish nationalism and all that comes with it.

"I think that is the most contemptible thing that I've heard so far."

Natural bedfellows alright!

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Maastricht treaty was in 1992.

You read the JSTOR link and still maintained they actively campaigned to leave the EU for decades after we joined it?
If you read that link you would see a party firstly anti-EC and then struggling to find a way to advance politically and marry the EU to it's principles.

Did you also miss the bit about O'Broin's and Hanna of the SDLP' exchange in where |O'Broin said
'even if you don't like parts of the EU, the worst thing you can do is stay outside it. The worst thing to do is adopt a Euro-sceptic approach...'

That was written in..wait for it - 2004.

Take the blinkers off for a bit blackwhite.

You've mis-represented my post there Francie (again :rolleyes:)

For once, would you try and respond to what is actually posted instead of the endless straw-manning and deflection

They were opposed to membership until after the Maastrich vote. The first document indicating a shift in their attitude towards membership was publsihed in 1994.

However - from 1994 up until quite close to the UK Brexit Referendum, they were actively opposed to every EU Treaty and remained opposed to nearly everything that the EU was doing.
They no longer opposed membership - but they were in no way supportive of the EU itself (hint - which is what I posted).
It was only when the Brexit sh*t hit the fan, so to speak, that SF have actually been pivoted to supporting the EU in most of it's roles and functions.

blackwhite

maccored wrote: »

No substance again. You seem to be making up your own version of history there - then again, thats not surprising as its the only way any of your points make sense . Im done here. Can be arsed with the bully boy tactics and the made up history and the fudging about Irexit. You were caught out and all youve done since is spin your wheels. off you go big lad.

If you cry bullying when someone points out your repeated lying then I'd hate to see how you cope in the real world.
Anytime any facts or links are posted that challenge your cult-like mindset you throw a strop. Same reaction anytime anything that isn't fawning over SF gets posted.