Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

marieholmfan · 07-11-2019 12:06PM

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

Ana was the one who was dehumanised, by the relentless bullying and exclusion.

Of which teachers and other staff were aware!

asteroids over berlin · 07-11-2019 12:06PM

Immensely sad case, a beautiful young life lost and another 2 more undoubtedly broken, 3 families lives completely shattered. Children/teenagers can be cruel, it has been like this for many a year and probably always will be. What drove these 2 boys to commit such a terrible crime will probably be never known. No doubt in some way it had to do with various pressures of life, no excuse of course, we probably all felt a bit of pressure at times when we were growing up. Perhaps technology of today has played a part, however i think it is important to talk and have an open discussion with your children as they grow, about fun and indeed serious topics, i have no doubt it will help our children immensely. I am not saying it is the parents fault, we don't know their background, adults have many pressures too, media suggests they were loving parents to the boys, i see no reason to lay blame on them.

RIP Anna, like your father said, never forgotten

Kamili · 07-11-2019 12:10PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Yes I know that. The poster I was querying stated that the boys behaviour was as a result of years of dehumanizing behaviour. I want to know who the poster thinks dehumanized them.

The original poster meant the boys actions were because Ana was dehumanized. I think you've misinterpreted it.

07-11-2019 12:15PM

tuxy wrote: »

I don't think the issue with capital punishment has ever been to find an executioner.

There are very real issues with the mechanism - and the availability of the drug to kill people. As it was produced for veterinary purposes, US states are now finding it difficult to buy further supplies.

Hal3000 wrote: »

Where there’s a will, there’s a way. The government are totally capable of shutting down porn to under 18s

How would the government do this?

sbsquarepants · 07-11-2019 12:16PM

marieholmfan wrote: »

Of which teachers and other staff were aware!

I was thinking this myself, they have a lot to answer!

I went to an ok enough school, a bit rough at times but nothing you'd call feral. One of my over riding memories of it is of one students father giving 2 other students an unmercifull hiding just outside the school grounds over the bullying being dished out to his kid. I didn't know the exact details (still don't) but i'm inclined to think fair play to him.

I'd rather deal with the consequences of that than find my kid dead in some abandoned kip, or swinging from a tree somewhere.

branie2 · 07-11-2019 12:20PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I was thinking this myself, they have a lot to answer!

I went to an ok enough school, a bit rough at times but nothing you'd call feral. One of my over riding memories of it is of one students father giving 2 other students an unmercifull hiding just outside the school grounds over the bullying being dished out to his kid. I didn't know the exact details (still don't) but i'm inclined to think fair play to him.

I'd rather deal with the consequences of that than find my kid dead in some abandoned kip, or swinging from a tree somewhere.

How did the parents of the bully react?

Padraig Mor · 07-11-2019 12:21PM

Kamili wrote: »

The original poster meant the boys actions were because Ana was dehumanized. I think you've misinterpreted it.

What he said! Looking at my post I can see how it can be misinterpreted - for the record, I meant that Ana was treated as 'other' by (it seems) many people - effective dehumanisation which led to the ultimate dehumanisation, murder because she was 'different'. Besides her classmates, the school has serious questions to answer - although IIRC the only thing they've seemingly done to date is run to the courts to prevent the school being named in the press - pack of cowards.

sbsquarepants · 07-11-2019 12:23PM

How did the parents of the bully react?

I don't know. This was a long time ago and i didn't know the people involved, it was quite a big school.

That's what i mean by deal with the consequences, to my mind fisticuffs with an angry father is very preferable to a dead child, or even just a miserable child.

mrjoneill · 07-11-2019 12:23PM

Omackeral wrote: »

Just on this. Not sure if everyone here is aware of this but if a convicted person appeals a sentence, not only can it be reduced or left as is but it can actually be increased. It's a risky business for some people. I've seen instances of it. Obviously you'd appeal a life sentence as there's not a mark up possible on that ergo there can't be an increase.

B could be playing with fire though and maintaining innocence could be mitagating in either way.

Animal B is selling himself as being duped by Animal A. His story is he didn't know that Animal A planned to do anything illegal to Ana. That he got caught up in events and was only a passive viewer to what took place. I presume they see a window of hope in this that the judge did not advise the jury accordingly etc etc. The Jury didn't buy it & the jury reviewed the video evidence Animal B gave to Gardai.
There is conflicting evidence between both of them who's plan it was to bring Ana to the abandoned house, there is also conflicting evidence in who smashed up Ana's phone when her mother was ringing her and there is also conflicting evidence of who brought the tape that was tied around Ana to the crime. The tape was orignally in Animal B possession.

donkeykong5 · 07-11-2019 12:32PM

Paul Reynolds talking a lot of sense about these two murdering scumbags on niall Boyllan show at moment.

mrjoneill · 07-11-2019 12:48PM

Hal3000 wrote: »

Where there’s a will, there’s a way. The government are totally capable of shutting down porn to under 18s but they won’t because their are greater powers that have vested interests in the sexualization of our children. Phones shouldn’t be available to kids full stop, they’re much worse than any other illegal substance which we have no problem making over 18s. Kids survived without phones before and they can learn to survive again.

To the reality adult porn is not illegal therefore it will proliferate. Even the more sinister element of this child porn is banned and illegal I would think in every country, but it has not stopped it. While I have no personal experience of how freely child-porn is available but looking at court cases I see non-computer literate grandfathers convicted that got Christmas presents of laptops from grand-kids. I can only guess from this that making it illegal has not prevented easy access and such is easily available.

The smartfone is with us for good & there is no putting than genie back into the bottle. The smartfone is part & parcel of every early teenagers life there is not going back on that. Its rather learning to cope & deal with such. We now have a generation of fathers and mothers that have been already through this.

Emme · 07-11-2019 12:48PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

Animal B is selling himself as being duped by Animal A.

Please do not refer to these entities as animals. Animals are mostly honourable. Most kill for food or survival only.

The monikers Entity A and Entity B or Murderer A and Murderer B would be more apt. They should be named and shamed so that nobody will go near them when they get let out. They should also have no access to smartphones or internet while they are incarcerated. Otherwise they will share their sick fantasies with others during their sentences.

Ana and her family were let down by everyone, particularly the staff and students in her school. She was a beautiful child and was blossoming in a way that most of the other girls probably would not. I would say that a lot of the bullying and exclusion from the girls was probably down to jealousy. Students from one of the years above her had asked her to model in a school fashion show.

sbsquarepants · 07-11-2019 01:23PM

donkeykong5 wrote: »

Paul Reynolds talking a lot of sense about these two murdering scumbags on niall Boyllan show at moment.

Are you sure it's him? He usually talks total bollox:D

07-11-2019 01:33PM

scudzilla wrote: »

It's in cases like this i would have no hesitation with the death sentence, an irrefutable open and shut case.

Hand on heart i would have no questions at all on pulling the trigger on Animal A

Pulling the trigger is the easy part. Would you be so quick to clean up the mess after? Or would you leave that to others? I'm not just talking about mopping the floor and zipping up the body bag. I'm talking about telling the family, arranging grief counselling for them, maybe spotting one of them in town every now and again for years to come. That kind of mess.

branie2 wrote: »

Denise Ferguson, the mother of the murdered toddler, James Bulger, says that Boy A & B should be named and shamed.

I feel sorry for that poor woman not only for her terrible loss but because her entire life since seems to be defined by bitterness and hatred.

sbsquarepants · 07-11-2019 01:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I feel sorry for that poor woman not only for her terrible loss but because her entire life since seems to be defined by bitterness and hatred.

I don't see how it could not be. The restorative power of forgiveness is very much over rated in my opinion, for something like what happened to her child the only thing that would in any way appease me is revenge. There's no forgiveness for things like this, not an ounce, not ever.

mrjoneill · 07-11-2019 01:41PM

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t think a lot of people can grasp the whole picture here.
I can’t anyway.
This is now a society where humans don’t have any value or worth just by dint of being humans.
In order to have a worth now you have to have the mass approval of your peers.
Ana didn’t meet the criteria by any stretch of the imagination so had no worth to them beyond being an ideal candidate to star in their own real life rape/murder fantasy adventure.

As if the past was perfect, we locked up thousands of single mothers took their babies and sold them on to the highest bidder. Many institutions where kids ended up had organized institutional sex abuse. We had thousands and thousands locked up in psychiatric hospitals which are now closed that provided a service of hiding kids away that had learning difficulties & autism.

NewClareman · 07-11-2019 01:47PM

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Yeah, I posted similar at the time of the trial. What the lads did was simply a culmination of years of bullying and dehumanisation by a large number of people. The two boys may be the ones in jail, but there's a hell of a lot more people guilty to one degree or other.

Absolutely, it was a toxic environment from start to finish. The dehumanisation hasn’t stopped, either. Referring to the perpetrators as ‘Animals’ is a poor attempt to deflect that broader responsibility. Were they ‘Animals’, which of course they are not, they would be part of a much wider herd.

Neither should we lose sight of the fact that these acts were committed when the boys were just 13 years old. One can only wonder what might have happened, had they been part of a more supportive culture.

KWAG2019 · 07-11-2019 01:50PM

I'm sure most posters work or have worked in organisations where policy and procedures are how things are done. About the school or schools: I made the point earlier that there are national policies about bullying in place and the problem could well be not individual schools but that the program does not change situations for the better. I'd suggest that the program be reviewed from the perspective of having questions to answer.

The issue of mobile phones and children needs to be faced: there is a collective failure here, a collective indulgence, a collective refusal to acknowledge damage done, a collective defeatism. Change is needed and change leaders are needed.

KWAG2019 · 07-11-2019 01:57PM

Jamie Bulger's mum has had a life of misery. That's not her choice. The price of having some peace from the bitterness and hatred of her child's killers might well be for all I know to let go of him again and finally. I can see how that letting go is a reminder of worse. It's beyond me. I do think she might have had a better chance to live some sort of other life if the two killers were still behind bars with no chance of ever seeing freedom. Given a choice between their hopes of rehabilitation and delivering justice for Jamie and his mother I would make a different choice to that made by judges, probation services and society which supports them. I would choose to leave them in jail and let the survivor, the mother have some sense of justice and closure. Forever isn't long enough.

Funnyonion79 · 07-11-2019 02:03PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

No, once arrested and charged they were in custody except for Animal A being released into his grandfathers custody over a Christmas period. Grandfather is not from the area or the county as I understand. I understand between the murder and their charging both of these Animals were free & could be seen hanging about the area they live in. Animal B had convinced his parents that he had nothing whatsoever to do with Ana's murder till the Gardai got an admission from him during questioning to his shocked mother that he was at the actual murder location.

This is actually incorrect. When they were both charged with Ana’s murder, they were initially remanded in custody at Oberstown, but they were both released in August 2018 under extremely strict bail conditions (which were not made public).

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/ana-kriegel-bail-4193700-Aug2018/%3famp=1

The bail conditions for Boy A were amended slightly so as to allow him to go to his Grandparents’ house on Christmas Day in the company of his parents and stay overnight there. He was also permitted to go for a short walk on Christmas Day so long as it was not in the Leixlip area.

Both boys have been free since their bail in August 2018 (albeit under very restrictive terms), until their conviction in June of this year.

NewClareman · 07-11-2019 02:07PM

Emme wrote: »

Ana and her family were let down by everyone, particularly the staff and students in her school. She was a beautiful child and was blossoming in a way that most of the other girls probably would not. I would say that a lot of the bullying and exclusion from the girls was probably down to jealousy. Students from one of the years above her had asked her to model in a school fashion show.

Yes she was, and I would argue that the two boys were also let down. If people’s outrage at Ana’s death could be challenged into an effective anti-bullying strategy, maybe some small good could come from this tragedy. I seriously doubt that the boys, who were little more than children, developed into murdering bullies, overnight.

It is not just in that school that a blind eye is shown to bullying behaviour. I have seen first hand the failure to tackle bullying children, by school authorities. It was only when a teacher was subjected to such behaviour that the problem was, very reluctantly, tackled.

In some cases the adults in a school are intimidated by the offending children’s parents. In other cases the parents are considered people of influence in the community and no one wants to “take them on”. In both sets of circumstances, there is minimal outside help, to support school personnel considering action.

sbsquarepants · 07-11-2019 02:43PM

NewClareman wrote: »

Yes she was, and I would argue that the two boys were equally let down.

Equally?? Really?

Away with your shíte talk ffs!

NewClareman · 07-11-2019 02:52PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Equally?? Really?

Away with your shíte talk ffs!

Ok, a poor choice of words. also let down...

donkeykong5 · 07-11-2019 03:19PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Are you sure it's him? He usually talks total bollox:D

Yeah it was him. Very informative

mrjoneill · 07-11-2019 03:26PM

Funnyonion79 wrote: »

This is actually incorrect. When they were both charged with Ana’s murder, they were initially remanded in custody at Oberstown, but they were both released in August 2018 under extremely strict bail conditions (which were not made public).

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/ana-kriegel-bail-4193700-Aug2018/%3famp=1

The bail conditions for Boy A were amended slightly so as to allow him to go to his Grandparents’ house on Christmas Day in the company of his parents and stay overnight there. He was also permitted to go for a short walk on Christmas Day so long as it was not in the Leixlip area.

Both boys have been free since their bail in August 2018 (albeit under very restrictive terms), until their conviction in June of this year.

That is correct, I had presumed after the refusal of their initial bail hearing hearing by the High court in Aug they were both in custody. I had not realized they had made subsequent bail applic. I also had presumed Animal B applic to be with his grandfather was a bail hearing but it was seeking a variation. I had known both of these beasts had disappeared from the streets on their town following their charging. I know locals found it disconcerting that they were hanging around the streets of their home town following the interval before being charged.

mrjoneill · 07-11-2019 03:27PM

NewClareman wrote: »

Yes she was, and I would argue that the two boys were also let down. If people’s outrage at Ana’s death could be challenged into an effective anti-bullying strategy, maybe some small good could come from this tragedy. I seriously doubt that the boys, who were little more than children, developed into murdering bullies, overnight.

It is not just in that school that a blind eye is shown to bullying behaviour. I have seen first hand the failure to tackle bullying children, by school authorities. It was only when a teacher was subjected to such behaviour that the problem was, very reluctantly, tackled.

In some cases the adults in a school are intimidated by the offending children’s parents. In other cases the parents are considered people of influence in the community and no one wants to “take them on”. In both sets of circumstances, there is minimal outside help, to support school personnel considering action.

Ana Kriégel case highlights how schools cope with ‘critical incidents’
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/ana-kri%C3%A9gel-case-highlights-how-schools-cope-with-critical-incidents-1.4074857

mrjoneill · 07-11-2019 03:53PM

NewClareman wrote: »

Absolutely, it was a toxic environment from start to finish. The dehumanisation hasn’t stopped, either. Referring to the perpetrators as ‘Animals’ is a poor attempt to deflect that broader responsibility. Were they ‘Animals’, which of course they are not, they would be part of a much wider herd.

Neither should we lose sight of the fact that these acts were committed when the boys were just 13 years old. One can only wonder what might have happened, had they been part of a more supportive culture.

When I was 13 I never considered the killing of anyone nor do the vast vast majority of 13yr olds. Both came from stable family backgrounds which the courts has confirmed. They lived in a nice area set in a beautiful park & it would seem they had all the trappings of a middle class family. The had TV, & laptops in their own rooms & had got their own smart phones although one of them claims he kept loosing his. I know of loads of kids that grow up in severely disadvantaged areas and none of them go on to commit juvenile murders. What strikes me often of people coming from seriously disadvantaged areas is their sense of community and looking after their own. I do find it hard to think of them as "boys" with the enormity of the crime that they committed with planned deviousness, brutality and savagery. And subsequent to that all the self-serving BS. Their remorse seems to me they got caught. They had no remorse in the immediate aftermath of the murder, both went to school as normal as if the enormous callous crime had being done by someone else.
I put it down to evil and that evil aligned itself with a whole series of circumstances, such as a vulnerable victim, dehumanizing bullying & their own sexual gratification.

splinter65 · 07-11-2019 03:56PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

As if the past was perfect, we locked up thousands of single mothers took their babies and sold them on to the highest bidder. Many institutions where kids ended up had organized institutional sex abuse. We had thousands and thousands locked up in psychiatric hospitals which are now closed that provided a service of hiding kids away that had learning difficulties & autism.

The past was terrible but this is equally terrible. And you have our current government telling us how lucky we are to live in modern progressive loving compassionate Ireland when it’s an even bigger **** hole now then it ever was

splinter65 · 07-11-2019 03:58PM

NewClareman wrote: »

Ok, a poor choice of words. also let down...

Let down by who though?

mrjoneill · 07-11-2019 04:01PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I don't see how it could not be. The restorative power of forgiveness is very much over rated in my opinion, for something like what happened to her child the only thing that would in any way appease me is revenge. There's no forgiveness for things like this, not an ounce, not ever.

When I walk in her shoe then I will know what she has gone through. I can only imagine how many times she has said to herself "how did I allow myself to be distracted for that brief time", "why I did not run to the exits immediately on missing Jamie". Why why why? She was not to know that evil aligned itself with her brief distraction.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Comments