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Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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    #6662
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    Flippyfloppy wrote: »
    Many schools don't have canteens for a start
    The school in question which I understand I'm precluded now from naming has a school canteen and a large one where meals are prepared.


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    #6663
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    CollyFlower wrote: »
    Quote: mrjoneill
    . It would appear in the school canteen when Ana came to sit at her classmates table the whole class got up & left.

    I don't believe this really happened, that's like something you'd see in an American film... I really hope that carry-on was going on there.


    That is the reality of it and this was widely reported on at the time of Ana's funeral. To quote Ana's mother she had not one friend from her school. No One from her school was her her friend. The act of bullying was complete at her school. As I posted earlier this was led by the 2 convicted animals. During Animal B questioning he made it clear what he thought of Ana that as subhuman species. This was the climate that Ana's murder took place in. Older boys in the school constantly hit on her for sex. What makes it more astonishing her teacher in her primary school had given sternly warning to her secondary school of her vulnerability and nothing was put in place for it. The school in question has a strict code on bullying and every classroom has this code notice on its wall. Seems it was an unimplemented rule there!!!!


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    #6664
    jiltloop
    Registered Users Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭jiltloop


    It's quite shocking, if true, that Ana was bullied and alienated so much in school. It really makes the park bench erected in her memory an empty gesture.

    Putting myself in her parents shoes, if my daughter had constant struggles like this in school and the community, no friends and then met this terrible demise I would utterly reject this belated and hollow show of support from the community.

    It also makes me wonder who are the idiots beating up Boy B's brother and threatening family members of the perpetrators? Where were their "heroics" when the bullying was going on?

    It really says a lot about the community there.


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    #6665
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,105 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    jiltloop wrote: »
    It's quite shocking, if true, that Ana was bullied and alienated so much in school. It really makes the park bench erected in her memory an empty gesture.

    Putting myself in her parents shoes, if my daughter had constant struggles like this in school and the community, no friends and then met this terrible demise I would utterly reject this belated and hollow show of support from the community.

    It also makes me wonder who are the idiots beating up Boy B's brother and threatening family members of the perpetrators? Where were their "heroics" when the bullying was going on?

    It really says a lot about the community there.

    Anas mother , Geraldine , has said in her statement that he got great support from friends and neighbours . Remember not every neighbour has teenage kids .
    I know I would have no idea what was going on in the local Secondary school , its been 15 years since I had kids there . Not every person in the community is to blame for it


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    #6666
    jiltloop
    Registered Users Posts: 2,183 ✭✭✭jiltloop


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Anas mother , Geraldine , has said in her statement that he got great support from friends and neighbours . Remember not every neighbour has teenage kids .
    I know I would have no idea what was going on in the local Secondary school , its been 15 years since I had kids there . Not every person in the community is to blame for it

    Fair enough, I was probably harsh in condemning the whole community. I know it's more complex, I think I worked myself up a bit too much. It's such an emotive subject, especially when you have daughters yourself.


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    #6667
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,543 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    jiltloop wrote: »
    It's quite shocking, if true, that Ana was bullied and alienated so much in school. It really makes the park bench erected in her memory an empty gesture.

    Putting myself in her parents shoes, if my daughter had constant struggles like this in school and the community, no friends and then met this terrible demise I would utterly reject this belated and hollow show of support from the community.

    It also makes me wonder who are the idiots beating up Boy B's brother and threatening family members of the perpetrators? Where were their "heroics" when the bullying was going on?

    It really says a lot about the community there.

    Yeah, I posted similar at the time of the trial. What the lads did was simply a culmination of years of bullying and dehumanisation by a large number of people. The two boys may be the ones in jail, but there's a hell of a lot more people guilty to one degree or other.


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    #6668
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    Hal3000 wrote: »
    The UK are still pressing ahead with it. We need new leaders here. Leaders who will focus on protecting children from extreme content, leaders who will make schools and principals accountable for bullying instead of letting schools say excuses like “ sorry our hands are tied and we can’t do anything “. We need leaders to sentence crimes especially against children harshly, we need leaders to stop letting people who view child abuse material walk away with suspended sentences, we need leaders who will address anti social behavior and have work programs for kids who engage in such. The youth today don’t know discipline and it’s clear they are now becoming more problematic than before. It time we as a country got our hands around these issues and stop sweeping them under the carpet by saying it rarely happens here etc etc.


    We have left the era of the cane long behind us, TG. We are now in the era of the carrot approach. As for children's access to pornography its now an accepted part of children's lives. While a few generations ago kids swapped stamps and team player cards this is now all changed to the swapping of the "best" porn in class or the school yard. One kid bringing it to class will guarantee the whole class having it. Those without smartfones are being charged to view. I understand the going rate is €2 a view, so not having a smartfone is not a guarantee to prevent it. As for controlling access to it as being tried in UK. What I understand it is proving to be not successful. Kids get access to the their parents credit cards without them noticing and get to set up accounts that will give them access. We have to come to terms that kids as young as 8 & 9 are experienced porn viewers.



    As for the place porn played in Ana's murder I do believe it played a small part as it sexualizes children young. But it was a combination of events coming together. The complete bullying of Ana at school was the more dominant factor. There is no evidence that viewing porn has led to increase in sex assaults not to mind murder. But what was the dominant factor here was the evil of Animal A and B getting together. Their evil combined in a mission to murder for a sexual trill with the belief they could get away with it with a very vulnerable kid. Gardai state these animals had not met between the murder and their taking of statements and they had got similar stories to cover their tracks. How to combat such evil is a whole other debate.


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    #6669
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    Yeah, I posted similar at the time of the trial. What the lads did was simply a culmination of years of bullying and dehumanisation by a large number of people. The two boys may be the ones in jail, but there's a hell of a lot more people guilty to one degree or other.

    including teachers


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    #6670
    Hal3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 818 ✭✭✭Hal3000


    mrjoneill wrote: »
    We have left the era of the cane long behind us, TG. We are now in the era of the carrot approach. As for children's access to pornography its now an accepted part of children's lives. While a few generations ago kids swapped stamps and team player cards this is now all changed to the swapping of the "best" porn in class or the school yard. One kid bringing it to class will guarantee the whole classes s having it. Those without smartfones are being charged to view. I understand the going rate is €2 a view, so not having a smartfone is not a guarantee to prevent it. As for controlling access to it as being tried in UK. What I understand it is proving to be not successful. Kids get access to the their parents credit cards without them noticing and get to set up accounts that will give them access. We have to come to terms that kids as young as 8 & 9 are experienced porn viewers.



    As for the place porn played in Ana's murder I do believe it played a small part as it sexualizes children young. But it was a combination of events coming together. The complete bullying of Ana at school was the more dominant factor. There is no evidence that viewing porn has led to increase in sex assaults not to mind murder. But what was the dominant factor here was the evil of Animal A and B getting together. Their evil combined in a mission to murder for a sexual trill with the belief they could get away with it with a very vulnerable kid. Gardai state these animals had not met between the murder and their taking of statements and they had got similar stories to cover their tracks. How to combat such evil is a whole other debate.

    Where there’s a will, there’s a way. The government are totally capable of shutting down porn to under 18s but they won’t because their are greater powers that have vested interests in the sexualization of our children. Phones shouldn’t be available to kids full stop, they’re much worse than any other illegal substance which we have no problem making over 18s. Kids survived without phones before and they can learn to survive again.


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    #6671
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Anas mother , Geraldine , has said in her statement that he got great support from friends and neighbours . Remember not every neighbour has teenage kids .
    I know I would have no idea what was going on in the local Secondary school , its been 15 years since I had kids there . Not every person in the community is to blame for it
    And I'm sure 99% of the parents of Ana's school class had absolutely no idea their "pride & joy" were invol in such an orchestrated campaign.


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    #6672
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,139 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    tupenny wrote: »
    If you knew boy b at all you would not say that

    Any professionals who have met both boys do not support this 'Boy B mastermind' theory some here keep banging on about.

    The comments about Oberstown are also way off beam. If you had ever been out there you would know what it is like now - much changed from the pre-St. Pat's influx days.


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    #6673
    branie2
    Registered Users Posts: 10,298 ✭✭✭✭branie2


    Denise Ferguson, the mother of the murdered toddler, James Bulger, says that Boy A & B should be named and shamed.


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    #6674
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Padraig Mor wrote: »
    Yeah, I posted similar at the time of the trial. What the lads did was simply a culmination of years of bullying and dehumanisation by a large number of people. The two boys may be the ones in jail, but there's a hell of a lot more people guilty to one degree or other.

    Who specifically are you suggesting dehumanized these boys?


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    #6675
    Bigbagofcans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Bigbagofcans


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Who specifically are you suggesting dehumanized these boys?

    Ana was the one who was dehumanised, by the relentless bullying and exclusion.


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    #6676
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Bigbagofcans wrote: »
    Ana was the one who was dehumanised by the relentless bullying and exclusion.

    Yes I know that. The poster I was querying stated that the boys behaviour was as a result of years of dehumanizing behaviour. I want to know who the poster thinks dehumanized them.


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    #6677
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Bigbagofcans wrote: »
    Ana was the one who was dehumanised, by the relentless bullying and exclusion.

    Of which teachers and other staff were aware!


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    #6678
    asteroids over berlin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭asteroids over berlin


    Immensely sad case, a beautiful young life lost and another 2 more undoubtedly broken, 3 families lives completely shattered. Children/teenagers can be cruel, it has been like this for many a year and probably always will be. What drove these 2 boys to commit such a terrible crime will probably be never known. No doubt in some way it had to do with various pressures of life, no excuse of course, we probably all felt a bit of pressure at times when we were growing up. Perhaps technology of today has played a part, however i think it is important to talk and have an open discussion with your children as they grow, about fun and indeed serious topics, i have no doubt it will help our children immensely. I am not saying it is the parents fault, we don't know their background, adults have many pressures too, media suggests they were loving parents to the boys, i see no reason to lay blame on them.


    RIP Anna, like your father said, never forgotten :)


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    #6679
    Kamili
    Registered Users Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭Kamili


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Yes I know that. The poster I was querying stated that the boys behaviour was as a result of years of dehumanizing behaviour. I want to know who the poster thinks dehumanized them.


    The original poster meant the boys actions were because Ana was dehumanized. I think you've misinterpreted it.


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    #6680
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,543 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    tuxy wrote: »
    I don't think the issue with capital punishment has ever been to find an executioner.
    There are very real issues with the mechanism - and the availability of the drug to kill people. As it was produced for veterinary purposes, US states are now finding it difficult to buy further supplies.
    Hal3000 wrote: »
    Where there’s a will, there’s a way. The government are totally capable of shutting down porn to under 18s
    How would the government do this?


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    #6681
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    marieholmfan wrote: »
    Of which teachers and other staff were aware!

    I was thinking this myself, they have a lot to answer!

    I went to an ok enough school, a bit rough at times but nothing you'd call feral. One of my over riding memories of it is of one students father giving 2 other students an unmercifull hiding just outside the school grounds over the bullying being dished out to his kid. I didn't know the exact details (still don't) but i'm inclined to think fair play to him.

    I'd rather deal with the consequences of that than find my kid dead in some abandoned kip, or swinging from a tree somewhere.


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    #6682
    branie2
    Registered Users Posts: 10,298 ✭✭✭✭branie2


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    I was thinking this myself, they have a lot to answer!

    I went to an ok enough school, a bit rough at times but nothing you'd call feral. One of my over riding memories of it is of one students father giving 2 other students an unmercifull hiding just outside the school grounds over the bullying being dished out to his kid. I didn't know the exact details (still don't) but i'm inclined to think fair play to him.

    I'd rather deal with the consequences of that than find my kid dead in some abandoned kip, or swinging from a tree somewhere.

    How did the parents of the bully react?


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    #6683
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,543 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    Kamili wrote: »
    The original poster meant the boys actions were because Ana was dehumanized. I think you've misinterpreted it.

    What he said! Looking at my post I can see how it can be misinterpreted - for the record, I meant that Ana was treated as 'other' by (it seems) many people - effective dehumanisation which led to the ultimate dehumanisation, murder because she was 'different'. Besides her classmates, the school has serious questions to answer - although IIRC the only thing they've seemingly done to date is run to the courts to prevent the school being named in the press - pack of cowards.


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    #6684
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    How did the parents of the bully react?

    I don't know. This was a long time ago and i didn't know the people involved, it was quite a big school.

    That's what i mean by deal with the consequences, to my mind fisticuffs with an angry father is very preferable to a dead child, or even just a miserable child.


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    #6685
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    Omackeral wrote: »
    Just on this. Not sure if everyone here is aware of this but if a convicted person appeals a sentence, not only can it be reduced or left as is but it can actually be increased. It's a risky business for some people. I've seen instances of it. Obviously you'd appeal a life sentence as there's not a mark up possible on that ergo there can't be an increase.

    B could be playing with fire though and maintaining innocence could be mitagating in either way.


    Animal B is selling himself as being duped by Animal A. His story is he didn't know that Animal A planned to do anything illegal to Ana. That he got caught up in events and was only a passive viewer to what took place. I presume they see a window of hope in this that the judge did not advise the jury accordingly etc etc. The Jury didn't buy it & the jury reviewed the video evidence Animal B gave to Gardai.
    There is conflicting evidence between both of them who's plan it was to bring Ana to the abandoned house, there is also conflicting evidence in who smashed up Ana's phone when her mother was ringing her and there is also conflicting evidence of who brought the tape that was tied around Ana to the crime. The tape was orignally in Animal B possession.


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    #6686
    donkeykong5
    Registered Users Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭donkeykong5


    Paul Reynolds talking a lot of sense about these two murdering scumbags on niall Boyllan show at moment.


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    #6687
    mrjoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭mrjoneill


    Hal3000 wrote: »
    Where there’s a will, there’s a way. The government are totally capable of shutting down porn to under 18s but they won’t because their are greater powers that have vested interests in the sexualization of our children. Phones shouldn’t be available to kids full stop, they’re much worse than any other illegal substance which we have no problem making over 18s. Kids survived without phones before and they can learn to survive again.


    To the reality adult porn is not illegal therefore it will proliferate. Even the more sinister element of this child porn is banned and illegal I would think in every country, but it has not stopped it. While I have no personal experience of how freely child-porn is available but looking at court cases I see non-computer literate grandfathers convicted that got Christmas presents of laptops from grand-kids. I can only guess from this that making it illegal has not prevented easy access and such is easily available.


    The smartfone is with us for good & there is no putting than genie back into the bottle. The smartfone is part & parcel of every early teenagers life there is not going back on that. Its rather learning to cope & deal with such. We now have a generation of fathers and mothers that have been already through this.


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    #6688
    Emme
    Registered Users Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭Emme


    mrjoneill wrote: »
    Animal B is selling himself as being duped by Animal A.

    Please do not refer to these entities as animals. Animals are mostly honourable. Most kill for food or survival only.

    The monikers Entity A and Entity B or Murderer A and Murderer B would be more apt. They should be named and shamed so that nobody will go near them when they get let out. They should also have no access to smartphones or internet while they are incarcerated. Otherwise they will share their sick fantasies with others during their sentences.

    Ana and her family were let down by everyone, particularly the staff and students in her school. She was a beautiful child and was blossoming in a way that most of the other girls probably would not. I would say that a lot of the bullying and exclusion from the girls was probably down to jealousy. Students from one of the years above her had asked her to model in a school fashion show.


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    #6689
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    donkeykong5 wrote: »
    Paul Reynolds talking a lot of sense about these two murdering scumbags on niall Boyllan show at moment.

    Are you sure it's him? He usually talks total bollox:D


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    #6690
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    scudzilla wrote: »
    It's in cases like this i would have no hesitation with the death sentence, an irrefutable open and shut case.

    Hand on heart i would have no questions at all on pulling the trigger on Animal A

    Pulling the trigger is the easy part. Would you be so quick to clean up the mess after? Or would you leave that to others? I'm not just talking about mopping the floor and zipping up the body bag. I'm talking about telling the family, arranging grief counselling for them, maybe spotting one of them in town every now and again for years to come. That kind of mess.


    branie2 wrote: »
    Denise Ferguson, the mother of the murdered toddler, James Bulger, says that Boy A & B should be named and shamed.

    I feel sorry for that poor woman not only for her terrible loss but because her entire life since seems to be defined by bitterness and hatred.


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    #6691
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Deleted User wrote: »

    I feel sorry for that poor woman not only for her terrible loss but because her entire life since seems to be defined by bitterness and hatred.

    I don't see how it could not be. The restorative power of forgiveness is very much over rated in my opinion, for something like what happened to her child the only thing that would in any way appease me is revenge. There's no forgiveness for things like this, not an ounce, not ever.


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