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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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    #1262
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Why has Leavy never started ahead of VDF at 7 when both were available?

    Whether you think Leavy’s a better player or not whatever, but to suggest Van Der Flier is not a top class international 7 you’re way off.

    To suggest SOB is better than him as well is ridiculous. SOB hasn’t been anywhere near his best in a long time.

    VDF kept both of them out of the Leinster team when all were fit as well.

    You see here we have the problem with the Irish team in a nutshell. Kearney and POM are allowed go to the well of past performances but Seanie is thrown on the scrapheap like some other lads. I can never understand it. Cian Healy fought back, so can SOB.

    Until VDF has a game like SOB did in the Lions or some of the Irish games he has no comparison tests yet. He's a workhorse who on the odd occasion looks class. Again he's got something bubbling underneath. Hopefully he can fully exploit it. Like he needs to carry more, he's got decent power. Does he get enough turnovers? His workrate is unreal. As we have seen with Joe's gameplan...is that enough? and i say no.

    I like him i do. But you'll see him miss those free passes POM gets.


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    #1263
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    Vinnie222 wrote: »
    It's amazing how many coaches that made him captain has got it so wrong

    Gats made him one and then subbed him about 49 mins in, didn't make the same mistake again.

    I never said he's a bad captain. You can see it in interviews. He has a presence, a voice. He's a rugby players player. But is that good enough for us anymore...

    look maybe it is. Maybe we are all deluding ourselves and are the lads actually as good as we think they are? take somebody like Ringrose, who was class, i love him but is he as good as we think? Ditto the other lads. I dunno i'm genuinely getting worried. But then i remind myself Joe didn't let them play, he didn't let Jordan, or joey, or Garry dance.

    Hopefully Andy can pull it back


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    #1264
    shootermacg
    Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    Former Former wrote: »
    Even with everyone fit he'd still be right in the mix.

    Maybe Farrell will have a different take but Joe generally preferred VDF over Leavy.

    Personally I'd love to see Leavy given a run at 6.

    I've been saying it for ages, Leavy is a six not a seven. He's too slow defensively for seven, but too good to not have in the back row.

    I also think Beirne is due a few more starts at 6. I think he found it hard to fit into the structure and did his best work for Scarlets when he was allowed to roam behind the defensive line looking for turnovers.


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    #1265
    shootermacg
    Registered Users Posts: 4,834 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    If you had Beirne at 6, CJ at 8 and Leavy at 7 though, you'd probably have a nice turn-over rate


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    #1266
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,259 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    Gats made him one and then subbed him about 49 mins in, didn't make the same mistake again.

    I never said he's a bad captain. You can see it in interviews. He has a presence, a voice. He's a rugby players player. But is that good enough for us anymore...

    It seemed to be good enough when you said the exact same thing about James Ryan.
    Niallof9 wrote: »
    James Ryan does everything he is instructed to do. He does it at a level above Henderson, POM, Stander. He's the rugby players player.

    The bigger question is, what to you actually even mean when you say that? It just sounds like platitudes to me and doesn't actually mean anything at all.


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    #1267
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    You see here we have the problem with the Irish team in a nutshell. Kearney and POM are allowed go to the well of past performances but Seanie is thrown on the scrapheap like some other lads. I can never understand it. Cian Healy fought back, so can SOB.

    SOB hasn’t been fit for two years. He’s done. He’s gone. Let him enjoy his last pay day.

    Kearney and POM have turned in outstanding performances in that time, in fact they have done in the last 12 months. SOB has been nowhere near that level. He has completely flattered to deceive.
    Niallof9 wrote: »
    Until VDF has a game like SOB did in the Lions or some of the Irish games he has no comparison tests yet.

    This is bollocks logic. By the same token Ruddock shouldn’t start ahead of POM yet you’re calling for that?
    Niallof9 wrote: »
    He's a workhorse who on the odd occasion looks class.

    He’s consistently one of the best performers on the pitch for his province and his country.
    Niallof9 wrote: »
    Like he needs to carry more, he's got decent power.

    That’s what the 6 is supposed to be doing, and why Leavy is a much better fit at 6 than he is at 7.
    Niallof9 wrote: »
    Does he get enough turnovers? His workrate is unreal. As we have seen with Joe's gameplan...is that enough? and i say no.

    He won 4 turnovers in the World Cup and saved plenty of tries. One against Scotland, 2 against Japan and 2 against the ABs off the top of my head
    Niallof9 wrote: »
    I like him i do. But you'll see him miss those free passes POM gets.

    Because he’s done nothing to warrant the quote frankly nonsense criticism you’re throwing at him.

    It is truly bizarre that you are going on this tirade with just plenty of anecdotes. You’ve literally nothing to back it up.


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    #1268
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    aloooof wrote: »
    It seemed to be good enough when you said the exact same thing about James Ryan.



    The bigger question is, what to you actually even mean when you say that? It just sounds like platitudes to me and doesn't actually mean anything at all.

    James Ryan is on a different level to POM. Please lets be reasonable...

    Thats part of my meaning, for me with POM it is all platitudes. Lenihan breathlessly waffling on at medicore O'Mahoney play. Once every 5 matches. Then it goes down as lore. Some of this does feed into the squad on a real tangible level. He seems a great guy, no question and on many teams at different levels in rugby the captain isn't necessarily the best player...maybe he's just a gentleman and a scholar, a great guy. Thats where i'm coming from. We know Best wasn't the best hooker. All through his teams i'd reckon that was the case. A rugby captain is so different to other sports. Its a spiritual leader, a leading from the front, a talker, a totem pole, in the old days in rugby, even the coach etc.

    Maybe he talks best, maybe he leads training best, maybe he runs lineouts best. I dunno i know from low level and AIL the different types of captains and such. Like i'm not arguing he's a bad player. He does his job. The players obviously feed into him and he's important. Thats sort of what im getting at. I dont't know maybe you've been on different teams than me.


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    #1269
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    Faugheen wrote: »
    SOB hasn’t been fit for two years. He’s done. He’s gone. Let him enjoy his last pay day.

    Kearney and POM have turned in outstanding performances in that time, in fact they have done in the last 12 months. SOB has been nowhere near that level. He has completely flattered to deceive.



    This is bollocks logic. By the same token Ruddock shouldn’t start ahead of POM yet you’re calling for that?



    He’s consistently one of the best performers on the pitch for his province and his country.



    That’s what the 6 is supposed to be doing, and why Leavy is a much better fit at 6 than he is at 7.



    He won 4 turnovers in the World Cup and saved plenty of tries. One against Scotland, 2 against Japan and 2 against the ABs off the top of my head



    Because he’s done nothing to warrant the quote frankly nonsense criticism you’re throwing at him.

    It is truly bizarre that you are going on this tirade with just plenty of anecdotes. You’ve literally nothing to back it up.

    Kearney and POM getting passes again. Sure if its not week in week out who cares right. We always had "fill in past glories here" and on we go. Yet others get ripped asunder.

    Our we talking about VDF here? Yeah i like him he had a great World Cup.

    So we've had two of the best carriers in world rugby for the past two decades at 7 which you ignore and you say my post is bizarre? I'm fully aware of what the 7's role is...we don't play that way. If we continue on that path he needs to carry more cause he's a good carrier, better than POM at least.

    There's plenty to back it up, chiefly the last 12 months.

    Ruddock has had some great games. He hasn't been rewarded. Again Ruddock's a decent operator. If Gats was picking the Lions in the morning he wouldn't be near it. And you can dismiss that all you want, our aim in Irish rugby like any other professional entity is to be the best of the best, World Class. Its a standard to be measured against.

    So we need to have some honest conversations. On the truly global stage we have failed badly. We need to be honest here.

    SOB for me is an option. We aren't good enough to be jettisoning international class players.

    Anyway Penny will outstrip all these lads and form a unreal backrow with Leavy and possibly Deegan hopefully in the next 12 months.

    Kearney is finished, absolutely done.

    He had a very good 2018 at times, and fair play to him for hanging on.

    https://www.rugbypass.com/six-nations/teams/ireland/players/peter-omahony/statistics/ - some incredible numbers there for POM against NZ.

    https://www.rugbypass.com/internationals/teams/ireland/players/james-ryan/statistics -

    a senior potential captain should be embarrassed by those numbers in comparison to a 23 year old. Maybe those one or two moments give him enough of a pass, but then its no wonder we lose to Japan and have **** World Cups. People want him to be captain so those numbers can't be dismissed.

    Even over on Munsterfans they aren't as pro POm as some of you guys. Ditto on babbling brook for Kearney. Its genuinely mystifying.


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    #1270
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Someone posted on PR the starting teams of the 5 games we lost this year (Wales, Eng x2, Japan, NZ) and it was basically the exact same starting XV for all of them, with the odd injury/Jean Kleyn thrown in. That was Schmidt's team and he was sticking to it, didn't matter how badly they played or how many games they lost.

    Edit, here it is.

    bHUD26t.png

    Wait, what?

    Only 8 players are unchanged across those 5 games.

    How on Earth is that "basically the same XV"?

    You have literally just demonstrated that nearly half of the team was rotates across those fixtures.


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    #1271
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    Jesus clutching at straws...

    If anything it goes to show how haphazard the thinking was regarding Toner, Bryne/Carty, in hindsight a woeful decision

    All the key positions - Scrumhalf, 14, 12, Fullback, hooker, 6, IH - all fails in the end through bad selection and not trusting trying options or reverting to the wrong player, out of form.

    Its all there in green and white.

    Also how knackered some of those constant starters looked.

    Thanks for sharing IO...its pretty stark


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    #1272
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    He rotates nearly half the team across a selection of games including Wales, England and New Zealand, and it's used as evidence of his inflexibility. Extraordinary.


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    #1273
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    He rotates nearly half the team across a selection of games including Wales, England and New Zealand, and it's used as evidence of his inflexibility. Extraordinary.

    If you say so...


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    #1274
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    https://www.rugbypass.com/six-nations/teams/ireland/players/

    In fact POM comes in quite low here.


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    #1275
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,297 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    He rotates nearly half the team across a selection of games including Wales, England and New Zealand, and it's used as evidence of his inflexibility. Extraordinary.

    It’s also the 5 lost games so it’s not like it’s 5 in a row with minimal changes anyway.


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    #1276
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    He rotates nearly half the team, except for key positions with other players in form, across a selection of hammerings including Wales, England and New Zealand, and it's used as evidence of his infallibility. Extraordinary.


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    #1277
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,297 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    He rotates nearly half the team, except for key positions with other players in form, across a selection of hammerings including Wales, England and New Zealand, and it's used as evidence of his infallibility. Extraordinary.

    No it’s not your making that up, no one has said he’s infallible or anything like it.


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    #1278
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    He rotates nearly half the team, except for key positions with other players in form, across a selection of hammerings including Wales, England and New Zealand, and it's used as evidence of his infallibility. Extraordinary.

    Yeah.... as soon as someone actually makes that point, I encourage you to address it. But for now it lives entirely in your head.


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    #1279
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    Its the gist of it. Your argument is along the lines of selection wasn't an issue, he tried a number of guys, form doesn't mean squat, ergo everythings rosy, Kearney looking great. POM should be captain.

    Its like we've gone back in time.

    people are refusing to be honest about this whole endeavor. Was the same with the secret moves and how we actually played the game.

    All bull**** in the end, and yet we have the Gerry T's shooting the messengers.


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    #1280
    P.Walnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 4,759 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Why has Leavy never started ahead of VDF at 7 when both were available?

    Whether you think Leavy’s a better player or not whatever, but to suggest Van Der Flier is not a top class international 7 you’re way off.

    To suggest SOB is better than him as well is ridiculous. SOB hasn’t been anywhere near his best in a long time.

    VDF kept both of them out of the Leinster team when all were fit as well.

    Leavy was picked ahead of a fit VDF against NZ last autumn but pulled out the day of the game because of injury.


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    #1281
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    Its the gist of it. Selection wasn't an issue, he tried a number of guys, form doesn't mean squat, everythings rosy, Kearney looking great. POM should be captain.

    Its like we've gone back in time.

    Or at least people are refusing to be honest about this whole endeavor. Was the same with the secret moves and how we actually played the game.

    All bull**** in the end, and yet we have the Gerry T's shooting the messengers.

    Time for your nap, I feel.


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    #1282
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,297 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    Its the gist of it. Your argument is along the lines of selection wasn't an issue, he tried a number of guys, form doesn't mean squat, ergo everythings rosy, Kearney looking great. POM should be captain.

    Its like we've gone back in time.

    people are refusing to be honest about this whole endeavor. Was the same with the secret moves and how we actually played the game.

    All bull**** in the end, and yet we have the Gerry T's shooting the messengers.
    Who is that directed at? Your just posting nonsense now.


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    #1283
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    sure lads, sure.


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    #1284
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    Time for your nap, I feel.

    yeah funnily enough you are putting me to sleep with the usual arguments from yourself


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    #1285
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,297 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    sure lads, sure.

    Great debating there


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    #1286
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    salmocab wrote: »
    Great debating there

    Ah its all nonsense like you said so i'll just hold my hands up and say you guys are right..

    Everythings great. I hope Kearney is 15, Earls, 14, POM is captain. Sure look who cares about the World Cup. Its only the global stage, the best of the best, and rolls around every 4 years. We lost to Japan, what am i thinking. Have you seen the skills and populations of them. Not a hope for us..little old Ireland ticking along, team of us, no criticism etc. All hail Andy and the lads.


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    #1287
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,297 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    Ah its all nonsense according to you so i'll just hold my hands up and say you guys won.

    Everythings great. I hope Kearney is 15, Earls, 14, POM is captain. Sure look who cares about the World Cup.

    Has anyone argued for all those things?


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    #1288
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    look i'll leave it. who cares.


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    #1289
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    look i'll leave it. who cares.


    Finally :P:P:P:P


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    #1290
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,297 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    look i'll leave it. who cares.

    We all care that’s why we bother here. Your arguing against things that just weren’t said.


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    #1291
    Niallof9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭Niallof9


    Yeah maybe its hard to know where it starts and finishes. Look fair enough that period is over. I'll draw a line under it and it starts in what 14 weeks?


This discussion has been closed.
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