€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

iamwhoiam · 20-05-2019 2:31pm

Squatter wrote: »

So a critically ill patient may have to wait for up to three days for life-saving surgery before his surgeon toddles into the right hospital and dons the scrubs?

Three hearty cheers for the HSE!

No , paediatric cardio thoracic surgery is pre planned and with much preperation and care .
Mainly the cardio surgeons work in one hospital but might be pre arranged for a complicated case .
Live saving surgery is done by the on call cardio thoracic team but most cardio thoracic is pre plannec and arranged

salmocab · 20-05-2019 6:48pm

Squatter wrote: »

So a critically ill patient may have to wait for up to three days for life-saving surgery before his surgeon toddles into the right hospital and dons the scrubs?

Three hearty cheers for the HSE!

Is every children’s hospital in the world bi-located or even tri-located? I don’t think for a minute PT is more important than medical outcomes but I’m also quite sure that trying to fit 2 hospitals onto a small corner of another hospital that is already on a difficult site is not the best use of resources. This needs to be built for the children of people who aren’t even born yet, it will be around for a long time and we should build for the future not making do.

Damien360 · 20-05-2019 7:05pm

salmocab wrote: »

Is every children’s hospital in the world bi-located or even tri-located? I don’t think for a minute PT is more important than medical outcomes but I’m also quite sure that trying to fit 2 hospitals onto a small corner of another hospital that is already on a difficult site is not the best use of resources. This needs to be built for the children of people who aren’t even born yet, it will be around for a long time and we should build for the future not making do.

I agree with you. I had reason to be a week in Crumlin with my daughter just a few months ago. To kill boredom, we went for strolls in the hospital. It is worth finding the old entrance if you happen to be visiting. It's at the top of the ramp for what is now the emergency entrance.

There are pictures of the original build, the blessing and a few newspaper articles. The bishop bought the land to get things started.

Crumlin was years in planning before finally getting the go ahead. From memory of the articles it was about 20 years. What blew me away was the picture of the site with not a single house behind it but green fields. Crumlin was built for it's time but sheer lack of foresight made it hemmed in and unable to expand for a growing population. And sure enough we are doing the exact same thing again.

salmocab · 20-05-2019 8:50pm

I know it quite well, have two kids, grew up 2 miles away and my mother I’d from a road just beside it so I’ve been around it a lot for one reason or another, I live maybe 5 miles away and dread going on the luckily rare occasion I have to. Sadly on my last trip I was delighted that the nurses were on strike so the car park was empty as appointments had been canceled, I actually smiled and gave them a beep due to my being happy not to have to go looking for parking. It’s a terrible location and o think we are making the same mistakes.

NuMarvel · 20-05-2019 10:41pm

salmocab wrote: »

Is every children’s hospital in the world bi-located or even tri-located? I don’t think for a minute PT is more important than medical outcomes but I’m also quite sure that trying to fit 2 hospitals onto a small corner of another hospital that is already on a difficult site is not the best use of resources. This needs to be built for the children of people who aren’t even born yet, it will be around for a long time and we should build for the future not making do.

There was a report published back in 2006 that examined the delivery of paediatric care in Ireland (called the 2006 McKinsey Report). It examined 17 children's hospitals around the world, and of those, only 1 was standalone. The other 16 were co-located with another adult or maternity hospital.

From what I can tell, the standalone hospital (Great Ormond Street) is the only one of the current hospitals that was built in the 19th century. All of the co-located children's hospitals have been built at their current location in the last 60 years or so. One opened just last year.

So co-location is not only very common for children's hospitals, it's the default for new builds.

Auguste Comte · 21-05-2019 6:30pm

Squatter wrote: »

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

There is zero excuse for this much over spend.

It's not an overspend. It's an under-forecast of the total cost.

Happens all the time, but the figures aren't always as scarily headline making.

That's what you get with ff/fg in charge right enough.

SEPT 23 1989 · 21-05-2019 8:19pm

I wonder how much the cost overruns when you are building for American multinationals in this country

AndrewJRenko · 26-05-2019 6:05pm

Squatter wrote: »

So a critically ill patient may have to wait for up to three days for life-saving surgery before his surgeon toddles into the right hospital and dons the scrubs?

Three hearty cheers for the HSE!

You know there will be critically ill people in all their hospitals? So if they drop everything to jump to your hospital, they are leaving critically ill people waiting in the other hospitals. That's the nature of the medical service - they deal with critically ill people all the time. So they build systems that best serve most people most of the time - like the surgeon having a scheduled 'day' at each hospital for each of his surgeries.

If you want to have a surgeon sitting round at each of the three hospitals waiting for the patient, then you're going to have to cut back on resources elsewhere.

petronius · 15-06-2019 11:41am

This is a Joke. 1.5billion more likely 2 billion.... the NCH fiasco keeps on giving
The FG/LAB government stupidly moved it to St. James site, a worse location than, the Mater, than Connolly or even Tallaght. They should have just gone and built it at the Mater, prep work had been done, met all the criteria. Or start afresh and build it at Connolly.
So thanks to Kenny, Gilmore, Harris and Varadakar we have a less than optimum solution, in a worse location, and we are paying twice the amount for it at least... well done lads...

Snow Garden · 15-06-2019 3:19pm

I heard from a guy sub-contracting for BAM that they are extremely happy with the contract Ts&Cs and expect to make a high margin on the construction. Is there a review of the tendering process pending?

NuMarvel · 15-06-2019 7:15pm

petronius wrote: »

This is a Joke. 1.5billion more likely 2 billion.... the NCH fiasco keeps on giving
The FG/LAB government stupidly moved it to St. James site, a worse location than, the Mater, than Connolly or even Tallaght. They should have just gone and built it at the Mater, prep work had been done, met all the criteria. Or start afresh and build it at Connolly.
So thanks to Kenny, Gilmore, Harris and Varadakar we have a less than optimum solution, in a worse location, and we are paying twice the amount for it at least... well done lads...

There's the small matter of it being refused planning permission. Besides, it's an even smaller site than the James site, coming in at half the size. And it would have many of the transport issues that James' has. PLUS there's the added bonus that there likely would have been governance and ownership issues to resolve, similar to those with the new NMH at St Vincent's, because the Mater is owned and run by a religious congregation.

Frankly, I think we dodged a bulet when planning permission for the Mater site was refused.

And in any case, the majority, if not all, of the cost overrun has been found to be the fault of poor governance and planning. And that would have happened no matter where it was built.

Wheeliebin30 · 15-06-2019 7:27pm

NuMarvel wrote: »

There's the small matter of it being refused planning permission. Besides, it's an even smaller site than the James site, coming in at half the size. And it would have many of the transport issues that James' has. PLUS there's the added bonus that there likely would have been governance and ownership issues to resolve, similar to those with the new NMH at St Vincent's, because the Mater is owned and run by a religious congregation.

Frankly, I think we dodged a bulet when planning permission for the Mater site was refused.

And in any case, the majority, if not all, of the cost overrun has been found to be the fault of poor governance and planning. And that would have happened no matter where it was built.

Facts get ignored around here.

Don’t expect a reply.

Beta Ray Bill · 26-09-2019 1:30pm

More news on this topic (which seems to have gone under the radar over the last 4/5 months)

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/alan-kelly-claims-childrens-hospital-costs-have-escalated-even-further-953187.html https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/alan-kelly-claims-childrens-hospital-costs-have-escalated-even-further-953187.html

An opposition TD has called for "full transparency" on the latest children's hospital costs after claiming the amount of money involved has "escalated even further in the past six months".

Labour health spokesperson Alan Kelly said sources have told him there has been a significant rise in costs since the problem became public at the start of the year.

At the weekly general discussion of correspondence at the start of the latest public accounts committee meeting, Mr Kelly said he has been made aware of "significant" children's hospital cost increases since spring.

He said there is a need for transparency on the issue. He said the PAC should write to the national paediatric hospital development board immediately seeking the latest cost involved, a move backed by PAC chair and Fianna Fáil TD Sean Fleming.

Mr Kelly said he has been told the cost of the project is continuing to rise and called for the latest up to date figures involved to be made public immediately.

"We need a full breakdown of the current costs of the hospital," Mr Kelly said.

"We need full transparency regarding consultancy and construction inflation and I have serious concerns that the hospital costs have escalated even further over the last six months given information discussions I have had."

Despite having an original price tag of €650m, it emerged earlier this year the actual cost of the children's hospital is now more than €1.7bn and is surging towards €2bn.

While Taoiseach Leo Varadkar, Finance Minister Paschal Donohoe and Health Minister Simon Harris have insisted the ballooning budget will not impact on services, the opposition has rejected this claim and believes the eight month delay in publishing this year's HSE capital plan is proof of the problems caused.

The whole thing would SICKEN. YOUR. HOLE!

Can a MOD move this to "Current Affairs/IMHO" as it really belongs there.
I didn't want to open a new thread, as we have this one already

Idbatterim · 26-09-2019 1:46pm

was dermot bannon involved in this project per chance?

Beta Ray Bill · 26-09-2019 1:50pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

was dermot bannon involved in this project per chance?

Poor oul Dermo has pretty loose relationship with "The Budget".
He outdid himself there on the weekend though

:D:D:D:D:D

Muahahaha · 26-09-2019 4:28pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

More news on this topic (which seems to have gone under the radar over the last 4/5 months)

But, but, but, Brexit :rolleyes:

Snow Garden · 26-09-2019 4:41pm

Another shambles overseen by Fine Gael and the HSE.

salmocab · 26-09-2019 4:42pm

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Poor oul Dermo has pretty loose relationship with "The Budget".
He outdid himself there on the weekend though :D:D:D:D:D

In general your right but the last episode was all the client that did the overrun

gctest50 · 26-09-2019 10:52pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

was dermot bannon involved in this project per chance?

yip, going to have granite steps down into each ward and an internal waterfall/river feature so patients can be moved on pergolas for that Italian flair

gctest50 · 26-09-2019 10:53pm

Snow Garden wrote: »

I heard from a guy sub-contracting for BAM that they are extremely happy with the contract Ts&Cs and expect to make a high margin on the construction. Is there a review of the tendering process pending?

BAM ! and the budget is gone

Cantona's Collars · 01-10-2019 9:15am

What's not seen because it's not a big ticket item such as a motorway is the siphoning off of funding to civils projects to sink into this build.
Major upgrade works of water infrastructure has been scaled back and in parts cancelled altogether with workers laid off as the money put up for the projects has been redirected into the building of the hospital.
Even down my way there's meant to be a 2 year project but like magic,the money is gone and men are let go. This is mirrored around the country but politicians won't admit to what's going on.

AndrewJRenko · 05-10-2019 6:27pm

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

What's not seen because it's not a big ticket item such as a motorway is the siphoning off of funding to civils projects to sink into this build.
Major upgrade works of water infrastructure has been scaled back and in parts cancelled altogether with workers laid off as the money put up for the projects has been redirected into the building of the hospital.
Even down my way there's meant to be a 2 year project but like magic,the money is gone and men are let go. This is mirrored around the country but politicians won't admit to what's going on.

Which specific projects are you referring to here?

Cantona's Collars · 05-10-2019 6:32pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Which specific projects are you referring to here?

Upgrade works to water mains in Co Wexford locally (not sure of other regions) have pretty much ground to a halt and men laid off. The main contractor had funding pulled and diverted to the NCH project. They are hoping that the new year means a clean slate and the funding they were to get is reinstated.

AndrewJRenko · 06-10-2019 1:36am

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Upgrade works to water mains in Co Wexford locally (not sure of other regions) have pretty much ground to a halt and men laid off. The main contractor had funding pulled and diverted to the NCH project. They are hoping that the new year means a clean slate and the funding they were to get is reinstated.

Has this been reported anywhere? Any newspaper reports or Councillors up in arms?

steves2 · 23-10-2019 6:09am

BAM cut the water off in Tallaght Hospital last week by accident while digging, apparently didn't have a Banksman present while doing the work. It nearly closed the hospital down. These clowns are inept and yet the incompetence of the tendering process all across the Children's Hospital sites lets them claim for extra costs.

Odelay · 23-10-2019 6:44am

steves2 wrote: »

BAM cut the water off in Tallaght Hospital last week by accident while digging, apparently didn't have a Banksman present while doing the work. It nearly closed the hospital down. These clowns are inept and yet the incompetence of the tendering process all across the Children's Hospital sites lets them claim for extra costs.

That’s hearsay. BAM wouldn’t put a spoon in a yogurt without a banksman.

gifted · 23-10-2019 6:54am

Odelay wrote: »

That’s hearsay. BAM wouldn’t put a spoon in a yogurt without a banksman.

Or at least a quantity surveyor...

facehugger99 · 23-10-2019 7:33am

steves2 wrote: »

BAM cut the water off in Tallaght Hospital last week by accident while digging, apparently didn't have a Banksman present while doing the work. It nearly closed the hospital down. These clowns are inept and yet the incompetence of the tendering process all across the Children's Hospital sites lets them claim for extra costs.

Amazing that they've been involved in some of the most technically challenging and prestigious infrastructure projects here.

Maybe you could tender against them next time - sounds like you've got their number.

steves2 · 23-10-2019 8:15am

facehugger99 wrote: »

Amazing that they've been involved in some of the most technically challenging and prestigious infrastructure projects here.

Maybe you could tender against them next time - sounds like you've got their number.

So they're doing a great job you think?

steves2 · 23-10-2019 8:18am

Odelay wrote: »

That’s hearsay. BAM wouldn’t put a spoon in a yogurt without a banksman.

Well the water was cut off to the point that the hospital had to cancel procedures and nearly had to stop accepting patients and I don't think it's the first time they did that on the Children's Hospital sites, certainly it happened in James's.

€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

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