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€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

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    #1172
    Squatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

    And those who say no transport for a green field site.

    How many billion would it take to extend the Luas for example. 1.7?

    You anticipate the NTA purchasing a fleet of LUAS ambulances to deliver sick kids to the NCH?

    Fair dues to you for thinking outside the box.


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    #1173
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »
    Nope value for money. And they talk about just spending as if it was to appease the public for every problem there it. Problem here just throw millions at it. Sounds good when I ****e this out. When the reality is it needs better managing. Not money. No amount of money will fix the health service for example.
    And those who say no transport for a green field site.
    How many billion would it take to extend the Luas for example. 1.7?

    Jesus these armchair experts do my head in.

    Years and years and many expert opinions and the dolphin report recommends James site.

    Then you come along without knowing anything and suddenly you’re an expert on all things hospitals. You throw in should be on a green field site.

    What expertise have you apart from listening to some rabble politician on the radio?

    Same as the broadband plan.

    All the armchair experts come out of the woodwork.

    Criticism for the sake of it.


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    #1174
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    twinytwo wrote: »
    One thing that is seemingly never introduced in government contracts is fixed pricing. If the build goes over budget there should be penalties in place.


    They will never introduce fixed pricing and if they did it would be met with multiple legal challenges no doubt. Its anti capitalism etc.


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    #1175
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Should have gone for a green field site on the edge of the M50, making it accessible for families coming from whatever corner of Ireland they are travelling from!

    Travelling into the City centre (by whatever means) is ultra difficult at the best of times, never mind during rush hour traffic.

    Locating the hospital on the outskirts of the City/M50 would mean that the Children's hospital would also be within close range of St James's "centre of excellence" .

    Too late for a relocation I guess. ☹️


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    #1176
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Should have gone for a green field site on the edge of the M50, making it accessible for families coming from whatever corner of Ireland they are travelling from!

    Travelling into the City centre (by whatever means) is ultra difficult at the best of times, never mind during rush hour traffic.

    Locating the hospital on the outskirts of the City/M50 would mean that the Children's hospital would also be within close range of St James's "centre of excellence" .

    Too late for a relocation I guess. ☹️
    I know.

    CAN YOU IMAGINE THE PARKING SITUATION SAY YOU HAVE A SERIOUSLY SICK KID ETC?? STRESS!


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    #1177
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Should have gone for a green field site on the edge of the M50, making it accessible for families coming from whatever corner of Ireland they are travelling from!

    Travelling into the City centre (by whatever means) is ultra difficult at the best of times, never mind during rush hour traffic.

    Locating the hospital on the outskirts of the City/M50 would mean that the Children's hospital would also be within close range of St James's "centre of excellence" .

    Too late for a relocation I guess. ☹️

    Eh have you seen the m50 at rush hour??????????????


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    #1178
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    ILoveYourVibes wrote: »
    I know.

    CAN YOU IMAGINE THE PARKING SITUATION SAY YOU HAVE A SERIOUSLY SICK KID ETC?? STRESS!

    There will be enough sparking spaces.

    Do you really think they haven’t thought of this?


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    #1179
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Eh have you seen the m50 at rush hour??????????????

    Yes it's very busy at rush hour, but then it's not busy for the rest of the day and night. Surely a new green field sight would have been preferable to driving into the City Centre, which is always busy!


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    #1180
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Yes it's very busy at rush hour, but then it's not busy for the rest of the day and night. Surely a new green field sight would have been preferable to driving into the City Centre, which is always busy!

    City Centre isn’t always busy.

    And one crash on the m50 and it’s standstill which happens every day.

    What public transport is there for your greenfield site?


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    #1181
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    There will be enough sparking spaces.

    Do you really think they haven’t thought of this?


    There is never enough parking spaces in the hospitals we have so I know they haven't.

    They will charge for parking anyway like everywhere else and probably end up renting the carparking from private firm ..like everywhere else!

    And there still won't be enough spaces.


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    #1182
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    There is zero excuse for this much over spend.


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    #1183
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,288 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Jesus these armchair experts do my head in.

    Years and years and many expert opinions and the dolphin report recommends James site.

    Then you come along without knowing anything and suddenly you’re an expert on all things hospitals. You throw in should be on a green field site.

    What expertise have you apart from listening to some rabble politician on the radio?

    Same as the broadband plan.

    All the armchair experts come out of the woodwork.

    Criticism for the sake of it.

    You’ve said this a few times about armchair experts, do you really think that just because a report was commissioned that the experts are definitely right? We don’t know the weighting they put on various things in the decision making. Another terrible site was originally chosen. The country is full of things that shouldn’t be
    done like they are, that experts had a hand on designing.
    Committees and expert groups are easily led to a conclusion if they are told in advance how to weight things.


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    #1184
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Should have gone for a green field site on the edge of the M50, making it accessible for families coming from whatever corner of Ireland they are travelling from!

    Travelling into the City centre (by whatever means) is ultra difficult at the best of times, never mind during rush hour traffic.

    Locating the hospital on the outskirts of the City/M50 would mean that the Children's hospital would also be within close range of St James's "centre of excellence" .

    Too late for a relocation I guess. ☹️

    A greenfield site was rejected because the whole idea is that it's co-located with a major hospital. It needs to be co-located because that's what's most beneficial for the health and lives of sick children. And while I absolutely understand the stress that traffic and parking causes for parents, the welfare of sick children has to be the paramount consideration.


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    #1185
    Damien360
    Registered Users Posts: 6,304 ✭✭✭Damien360


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    A greenfield site was rejected because the whole idea is that it's co-located with a major hospital. It needs to be co-located because that's what's most beneficial for the health and lives of sick children. And while I absolutely understand the stress that traffic and parking causes for parents, the welfare of sick children has to be the paramount consideration.

    That idea was rubbished by the hospital consultants in paediatrics. Although they adult and paediatric medicine is similar, the discipline is very different in practice. Doctors do not float between each discipline. Unfortunately they were not vocal enough as I have heard this from Pat Kenny show consultant guests and newspaper articles stating the same. The accusation on PK show was simply looking after the travel needs of the doctors rather than the patient.

    There is a very good podcast from PK show worth finding and it is only a few months old. It is with a private consultant that built the Galway clinic and I believe he was heavily involved with blackrock clinic. Not public build but he outlined his building costs per bed and it is very far below the current projected cost of the children's hospital.


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    #1186
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    City Centre isn’t always busy.

    And one crash on the m50 and it’s standstill which happens every day.

    What public transport is there for your greenfield site?

    So what? For people not living in dublin we'd have to use the m50 to get to James' hospital anyway.


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    #1187
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,288 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    smurgen wrote: »
    So what? For people not living in dublin we'd have to use the m50 to get to James' hospital anyway.

    Plenty of dubs would use it too. I live only a few miles away inside the m50 and it would be a pain for me to get to. Public transport I’d have to get an hour long bus to the city walk to the luas and get that. The reality is it’s a very tight site with not enough room, there will be less spaces than the 3 hospitals currently have and they already don’t have enough. The children’s hospital in crumlin has great bus connectivity but has Far too little parking because when it was built it wasn’t a consideration. Now it is a consideration and it’s being practically ignored.


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    #1188
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    smurgen wrote: »
    So what? For people not living in dublin we'd have to use the m50 to get to James' hospital anyway.

    And to get to whatever greenfield site.


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    #1189
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Up to 80% of the patients using the hospital will be from Dublin.

    A lot of people think that the hospital is of equal importance inside Dublin and outside, which isn't true. The hospital is going to be the primary Tertiary centre for the whole of the country - i.e for very specialist paeds care. However, the hospital is also going to be the primary Secondary care centre for all paeds in Dublin. This isn't the case for kids outside of Dublin, as their secondary care will be handled outside of Dublin in satellite paediatric centres.

    Far more of the patients using the hospital will be for Secondary care than for tertiary care.

    Around 8000 staff will be using the hospital campus every day. These aren't coming from all around the country either - they need good public transport options within Dublin.


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    #1190
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Damien360 wrote: »
    That idea was rubbished by the hospital consultants in paediatrics. Although they adult and paediatric medicine is similar, the discipline is very different in practice. Doctors do not float between each discipline. Unfortunately they were not vocal enough as I have heard this from Pat Kenny show consultant guests and newspaper articles stating the same. The accusation on PK show was simply looking after the travel needs of the doctors rather than the patient.

    There is a very good podcast from PK show worth finding and it is only a few months old. It is with a private consultant that built the Galway clinic and I believe he was heavily involved with blackrock clinic. Not public build but he outlined his building costs per bed and it is very far below the current projected cost of the children's hospital.

    I know some people oppose the specific site chosen, but I don't think I've seen any paediatric consultant say co-location isn't needed. Even the developer of the Galway Clinic who you refer to, a retired orthapaedic surgeon, talks about co-location elsewhere.

    As I can see it, the consensus is that co-location is better for children's health outcomes, hence my comments about a greenfield site not being suitable. And to be clear, I take a greenfield site to mean a standalone hospital. If you're saying a greenfield site means co-location, then we're basically on the same page in principle.


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    #1191
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,288 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    I know some people oppose the specific site chosen, but I don't think I've seen any paediatric consultant say co-location isn't needed. Even the developer of the Galway Clinic who you refer to, a retired orthapaedic surgeon, talks about co-location elsewhere.

    As I can see it, the consensus is that co-location is better for children's health outcomes, hence my comments about a greenfield site not being suitable. And to be clear, I take a greenfield site to mean a standalone hospital. If you're saying a greenfield site means co-location, then we're basically on the same page in principle.

    I’ve said before here that to my mind a greenfield location that could fit tri location in the long run would be a great idea. The Coombe is supposed to get jammed onto the site too somewhere. The irfu land near newlands might have been ideal. An automated shuttle between red cow luas could be put in as it’s less than a kilometer. James is already well down the road of its life span with several of the older buildings well due upgrades. Costs could have been offset somewhat with sales of James’s and Coombe sites as both would be prime for apartments. I’m not talking of doing this in a short time frame but maybe as a 25/30 year project. We could manage to leave something for future generations not to have to fix for once.
    This children’s hospital is going to be around for a century we shouldn’t be just jamming it in where it almost fits.
    Also I don’t think that in 50 years time James will still have all it’s departments on that site as as it needs new facilities they will occasionally end up elsewhere due to lack of space.


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    #1192
    tara73
    Registered Users Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭tara73


    this is an iteresting thread. I applied at BAM (in Germany) initially not for the new childrens hospital but for a different job. but when they saw I worked in Ireland for a bit of time they tried to arrange to get me to an interview with the Ireland managers for the new childrens hospital. That's when I first learned there's a new childrens hospital planned in the heart of Kilmainham.
    When I first saw the animations and the scale of it I couldn't believe it. I honestly thought it's kind of a hoax, someone did this just as a planning to show off or for whatever reasons but it will never be built because the scale of it seemed unreal/ ridicously megalomaniac style.

    I didn't take the job at this BAM company because the behaved like shi** even in the process of arranging a job interview.

    Would be interesting to find out more about this whole project, who are the main investors, who is benefitting from this, in my view, completely out of scale project.


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    #1193
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    salmocab wrote: »
    I’ve said before here that to my mind a greenfield location that could fit tri location in the long run would be a great idea. The Coombe is supposed to get jammed onto the site too somewhere. The irfu land near newlands might have been ideal. An automated shuttle between red cow luas could be put in as it’s less than a kilometer. James is already well down the road of its life span with several of the older buildings well due upgrades. Costs could have been offset somewhat with sales of James’s and Coombe sites as both would be prime for apartments. I’m not talking of doing this in a short time frame but maybe as a 25/30 year project. We could manage to leave something for future generations not to have to fix for once.
    This children’s hospital is going to be around for a century we shouldn’t be just jamming it in where it almost fits.
    Also I don’t think that in 50 years time James will still have all it’s departments on that site as as it needs new facilities they will occasionally end up elsewhere due to lack of space.

    I don't like the James site either, but I don't think we'd need to start completely from scratch in order to future proof the service.

    Connolly is a good site, but it first needs significant time and resources to make it the type of hospital suitable for co-location. It's already been said it will take up to 10 years to be suitable for co-location for a maternity hospital, so to be suitable for co-location with the national children's hospital would probably take longer.

    The Coombe proposal was also a very good option. While not strictly co-location with an adult hospital, the Dolphin group felt it was located close enough to one to consider the proposal as immediately delivering tri-location. It has plenty of space for expansion, and for the development of a new maternity hospital when the time comes. This would have been the option I would have gone for, because it ticks all the boxes from the get-go, while still allowing flexibility for the future.


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    #1194
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    Damien360 wrote: »
    That idea was rubbished by the hospital consultants in paediatrics. Although they adult and paediatric medicine is similar, the discipline is very different in practice. Doctors do not float between each discipline. Unfortunately they were not vocal enough as I have heard this from Pat Kenny show consultant guests and newspaper articles stating the same. The accusation on PK show was simply looking after the travel needs of the doctors rather than the patient.

    There is a very good podcast from PK show worth finding and it is only a few months old. It is with a private consultant that built the Galway clinic and I believe he was heavily involved with blackrock clinic. Not public build but he outlined his building costs per bed and it is very far below the current projected cost of the children's hospital.


    Some cardiothoracic surgeons operate on adults and children and work between the Mater and Crumlin. I'm sure there's other examples of specialists who see adults and children.


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    #1195
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Jesus these armchair experts do my head in.

    Years and years and many expert opinions and the dolphin report recommends James site.

    Then you come along without knowing anything and...
    Woah there now.

    Speaking of not knowing anything, have you read the Dolphin Report?

    Can you quote from the report where it recommends the St James's Hospital Site?


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    #1196
    Squatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    ILoveYourVibes wrote: »
    There is zero excuse for this much over spend.

    It's not an overspend. It's an under-forecast of the total cost.

    Happens all the time, but the figures aren't always as scarily headline making.


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    #1197
    Squatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    Some cardiothoracic surgeons operate on adults and children and work between the Mater and Crumlin. I'm sure there's other examples of specialists who see adults and children.

    Add in a greenfield site on the M50 for the NCH and they'll spend half their day sitting in a car or taxi commuting between 3 hospitals.

    At a salary in excess of €1,000 per working day, that's hardly the best use of their skills.


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    #1198
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    Amazed how obsessed people still are with parking and traffic. The traffic all around the M50 is terrible, the traffic around Blanch is terrible, its bursting at the seams already. Where this magical greenfield site with no traffic is I would love to know.

    The primary concern is the best hospital, the best outcome for kids. I am sorry if that means traffic but in the majority of places in Dublin that is just going to be the reality.


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    #1199
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,075 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    Squatter wrote: »
    Add in a greenfield site on the M50 for the NCH and they'll spend half their day sitting in a car or taxi commuting between 3 hospitals.

    At a salary in excess of €1,000 per working day, that's hardly the best use of their skills.

    Cardio thoracic surgeons dont run from one hospital to another on a daily basis .They have dedicated days in one adult hospital and another day or two in the paeds hospital .The operate on a list of children for a day or for a three day stint .They then have a list for another day in an adult hospital .


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    #1200
    Squatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Cardio thoracic surgeons dont run from one hospital to another on a daily basis .They have dedicated days in one adult hospital and another day or two in the paeds hospital .The operate on a list of children for a day or for a three day stint .They then have a list for another day in an adult hospital .

    So a critically ill patient may have to wait for up to three days for life-saving surgery before his surgeon toddles into the right hospital and dons the scrubs?

    Three hearty cheers for the HSE!


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    #1201
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    Squatter wrote: »
    So a critically ill patient may have to wait for up to three days for life-saving surgery before his surgeon toddles into the right hospital and dons the scrubs?

    Three hearty cheers for the HSE!

    Maybe there is another surgeon in the hospital that they are in? What are you talking about, are you actually inventing problems?


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