€1bn cost overrun for new Children's Hospital

Cushie Butterfield

I think BAM are calling Varadkar’s bluff after his recent comment.

Up to this the govt spin was that it was too late to break the contract, so were happy to take the heat off themselves, & vague comments which could be construed that BAM are totally to blame suited them, rather than admitting that political pressures as regards pushing ahead with phase a before phase b was properly planned & costed were really the biggest reason for the cost overruns (compounded by poor internal communication, reporting & controls).

Will be interesting to see, now that Vardkar’s bluff has been called, how he’ll attempt to spin things.

The pantomime continues.

pdpmur

screamer wrote: »

No in Germany and other countries the forms of contract are clearer, and fairer. The forms of contract are what the IRISH government themselves introduced about 10 years ago.
The construction industry is a low profit one, high turnover yes, but low profit, and high risk and getting paid is very difficult. I feel zero sympathy for the overrun, the constitution organizations are now using the governments own contract to get their money. It’s a horrible form of contract and very adversarial. If you think government contracts are good, I just point you to the carillon fiasco and the suppliers they screwed over taking possession of schools that weren’t even paid out for. Yes, it’s a tough industry, you should try it sometimes. And if the government want to know why this has overrun, look in the mirror with their horrible form of contract, it’s their own fault. Maybe if their contract was less adversarial and more fair, the building organizations wouldn’t have to counter with claims......

+1

Given that the GCCC forms of contract were steered into existence by an Irish Dept of Defense civil servant (aided by some very well paid legal firm), is it just pure co-incidence that the GCCC contracts contain almost identical terminology to that of US Dept of Defense procurement contracts (or am I just being overly suspicious)?

There are plenty of off-the-shelf multiple forms of contract available (e.g. FIDIC) that have been honed over time to suit the construction industry worldwide. But we have ended up with an ugly mongrel of a (pretty much two-size-fits all) standard contract with glaring deficiencies, thanks to this fubar of a process initiated by Mary Harney back in her heyday.

I can count on one finger the number of public works contracts that I have been involved with that didn't involve a dogfight over claims for most of the duration of the contract, and it all stems from the inadequacies of the GCCC in my humble opinion. Yes, it has been tinkered with recently, but it's still a rabid mongrel that should be put down quickly.

theguzman

Cancel the contract and invest the €2bn into actual real infrastructure such as roads and railways, slash the social budget heavily and again divert funds into infrastructure. Ireland needs anywhere between €50 to €100 billion to rebuild roads and railways to bring us to to 1st world standard. Such an investment would pay for itself several times over in increased economic output. Squandering money on socialism projects like this will only drain the tax pot even more. Ban BAM from all future public tenders and slap an additional 10% tax onto their private work to drive them out of Ireland permanently.

salmocab

theguzman wrote: »

Cancel the contract and invest the €2bn into actual real infrastructure such as roads and railways, slash the social budget heavily and again divert funds into infrastructure. Ireland needs anywhere between €50 to €100 billion to rebuild roads and railways to bring us to to 1st world standard. Such an investment would pay for itself several times over in increased economic output. Squandering money on socialism projects like this will only drain the tax pot even more. Ban BAM from all future public tenders and slap an additional 10% tax onto their private work to drive them out of Ireland permanently.

We do actually need a hospital that bit isn’t made up

James Brown

Glebee wrote: »

Can we not get the people champion Mick Wallace to finish the build....

I would assume he'd at least know what he was doing. Don't hold your breath for any tax mind

JupiterKid

This scandal is an obscene and monumental f*ck up of the highest order and a wanton waste of taxpayers' (ie you and me) money.

Construction has already started. What's going to happen the St James's site now?

It shows that Harris is totally unfit for purpose as Minister for Health (grossly inexperienced and took on a portfolio he wasn't in any way of handling properly), as is Eoghan Murphy as probably the most incompetent and ineffectual Minister for Housing in the history of the State and Leo V himself - master of spin and zero substance.

We need a general election and a new government and we need it NOW.

malinheader

JupiterKid wrote: »

This scandal is an obscene and monumental f*ck up of the highest order and a wanton waste of taxpayers' (ie you and me) money.

Construction has already started. What's going to happen the St James's site now?

It shows that Harris is totally unfit for purpose as Minister for Health (grossly inexperienced and took on a portfolio he wasn't in any way of handling properly), as is Eoghan Murphy as probably the most incompetent and ineffectual Minister for Housing in the history of the State and Leo V himself - master of spin and zero substance.

We need a general election and a new government and we need it NOW.

We need someone new to vote for first or else we'll just be replacing incompetence with incompetence.

Sheep Shagger

JupiterKid wrote: »

This scandal is an obscene and monumental f*ck up of the highest order and a wanton waste of taxpayers' (ie you and me) money.

Construction has already started. What's going to happen the St James's site now?

It shows that Harris is totally unfit for purpose as Minister for Health (grossly inexperienced and took on a portfolio he wasn't in any way of handling properly), as is Eoghan Murphy as probably the most incompetent and ineffectual Minister for Housing in the history of the State and Leo V himself - master of spin and zero substance.

We need a general election and a new government and we need it NOW.

And who should replace those you think are not fit for purpose?

You a forgetting that while there a ministers who can move in and out of portfolios, there are senior civil servants who are long term employees in departments- no criticism of them?

James Brown

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

And who should replace those you think are not fit for purpose?

You a forgetting that while there a ministers who can move in and out of portfolios, there are senior civil servants who are long term employees in departments- no criticism of them?

That excuse carries no weight. If you vote for FF/FG that's on you.

Are you are looking to pass the buck? If I take on the role of housing or health minister I expect to be held accountable for my role, polices and any action or in-action on my part or the department I over see. I'd be getting paid well and a nice fat pension for my troubles. Nameless civil servants are private individuals doing a job. We can get into who has it handy and who doesn't, but Politicians are policy makers.

bryaj

Give the site to bam to build apartments on it.
Get bam to build a new hospital on a greenfield site for 1 billion all in!

James Brown

malinheader wrote: »

We need someone new to vote for first or else we'll just be replacing incompetence with incompetence.

Let's try one government with no FF/FG, just once. Might the economy crash again? Might we need 'take one for the team' again? Who knows.

ChikiChiki

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That excuse carries no weight. If you vote for FF/FG that's on you.

Are you are looking to pass the buck? If I take on the role of housing or health minister I expect to be held accountable for my role, polices and any action or in-action on my part or the department I over see. I'd be getting paid well and a nice fat pension for my troubles. Nameless civil servants are private individuals doing a job. We can get into who has it handy and who doesn't, but Politicians are policy makers.

The argument about scrutinising civil servants holds some weight. Some of them have never been held accountable having been in positions of power over successive governments. It certainly still does excuse the frankly unforgivable incompetence of FG/FF.

Wheeliebin30

JupiterKid wrote: »

This scandal is an obscene and monumental f*ck up of the highest order and a wanton waste of taxpayers' (ie you and me) money.

Construction has already started. What's going to happen the St James's site now?

It shows that Harris is totally unfit for purpose as Minister for Health (grossly inexperienced and took on a portfolio he wasn't in any way of handling properly), as is Eoghan Murphy as probably the most incompetent and ineffectual Minister for Housing in the history of the State and Leo V himself - master of spin and zero substance.

We need a general election and a new government and we need it NOW.

This is hilarious.

I am not arguing it’s been a **** up but to call it a **** up of the highest order after everything that happened only 10 years ago.

Let’s get a bit of perspective.

Wheeliebin30

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Let's try one government with no FF/FG, just once. Might the economy crash again? Might we need 'take one for the team' again? Who knows.

Suppose that’s SF is it?

Even though you never give the alternative who will be better.

Just anyone but FG/FF.

Who is that though?

ToBeFrank123

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

This is hilarious.

I am not arguing it’s been a **** up but to call it a **** up of the highest order after everything that happened only 10 years ago.

Let’s get a bit of perspective.

Its pretty bad though. Its at least a billion over budget compared to international norms. Its in the wrong location. And it seems no proper pre-planning analysis was done for the Mater site or if there was, its strange the planners rejected the hospital in the end.
Its been a major screw up from the start, no-one doubts that with lots of blame to go around.

Sheep Shagger

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That excuse carries no weight. If you vote for FF/FG that's on you.

Are you are looking to pass the buck? If I take on the role of housing or health minister I expect to be held accountable for my role, polices and any action or in-action on my part or the department I over see. I'd be getting paid well and a nice fat pension for my troubles. Nameless civil servants are private individuals doing a job. We can get into who has it handy and who doesn't, but Politicians are policy makers.

Not looking to pass the buck but its more then the minster of the day swho should be getting the blame.

Senior civil servants on their guaranteed life for job (unlike politicians) and gold plated pensions should also be accountable that's all I'm saying.

Wheeliebin30

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Not looking to pass the buck but its more then the minster of the day swho should be getting the blame.

Senior civil servants on their guaranteed life for job (unlike politicians) and gold plated pensions should also be accountable that's all I'm saying.

Nope Matt wants a new government.

But EVERY time he is asked who that is he runs and hides.

Wheeliebin30

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Its pretty bad though. Its at least a billion over budget compared to international norms. Its in the wrong location. And it seems no proper pre-planning analysis was done for the Mater site or if there was, its strange the planners rejected the hospital in the end.
Its been a major screw up from the start, no-one doubts that with lots of blame to go around.

But who’s to blame for the location?

This has been planned since 1962.

The decision was made in 2012.

Simon Harris was minister of health since 2016.

His head will roll but it’s really nothing to do with him.

Snow Garden

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Not looking to pass the buck but its more then the minster of the day swho should be getting the blame.

Senior civil servants on their guaranteed life for job (unlike politicians) and gold plated pensions should also be accountable that's all I'm saying.

The permanent government (civil/public service) are 95% of the problem. They hold all the cards and keep their minister in the dark most of the time.
Any minister that took the senior managers on in terms of changes quickly learns that the new sheriff is just a figurehead.

markodaly

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think it’s worth a try. We know what we get with overpaid waffling morons ...

Are you prepared to suffer the consequences if it all goes tits up and by going tits up, just look at Venezuela to see when left-wing populists get into power.
Closer to home, look at Brexit. Look how complicated that is.

Easy solutions are for dummies.

ChikiChiki

markodaly wrote: »

Are you prepared to suffer the consequences if it all goes tits up and by going tits up, just look at Venezuela to see when left-wing populists get into power.
Closer to home, look at Brexit. Look how complicated that is.

Easy solutions are for dummies.

Well it's gone astoundingly well with FG/FF so far. Stop the delusion. We are on a seriously worrying trajectory if something doesn't change. There is not any party in the Dail I trust to govern the country at the minute.

markodaly

Matt Barrett wrote: »

They could have dismantled and rebuilt the HSE if they wanted. .

When could they have done this?
In coalition with Labour? :D:D

markodaly

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Well it's gone astoundingly well with FG/FF so far. Stop the delusion. We are on a seriously worrying trajectory if something doesn't change. There is not any party in the Dail I trust to govern the country at the minute.

I don't disagree with the state of politics in this country, but we are to blame for it.
We all want reform, so long as it does not impact on us.

FG seems to be a steady hand but with that, they are too accepting of the status quo in regards to how things are run, especially in the civil service.

However, there are very good things about the country. For example, we are at full employment. If you want a job, you can get one. So, lets not all pretend we are Poland circa 1945.

One has to be careful though not to accept change for change sake, as things can be an awful lot worse under a populist government. Just look at the UK!
Like does anyone think any other party can do better?

Plumbthedepths

It's nice to see the narrative has changed from look at Greece to look at Venezuela, more exotic and interesting.

worded

Pic of builders arriving ...

brendanwalsh

This is a disgrace.

Government should halt construction now, re-tender the project with a maximum price of 500 million or whatever the status quo for a hospital in the United states is. In fact, just buy a blueprint from a US company who are experts in building hospitals.

The United States is at the forefront of providing healthcare due to the private nature of it.

We have a country and population that isn't even as big as most states in America, yet we are going to have a hospital that is more expensive than the premier centres of excellence in the entire world- cleveland clinic, mayo clinic, John Hopkins.

Snow Garden

brendanwalsh wrote: »

This is a disgrace.

Government should halt construction now, re-tender the project with a maximum price of 500 million or whatever the status quo for a hospital in the United states is. In fact, just buy a blueprint from a US company who are experts in building hospitals.

The United States is at the forefront of providing healthcare due to the private nature of it.

We have a country and population that isn't even as big as most states in America, yet we are going to have a hospital that is more expensive than the premier centres of excellence in the entire world- cleveland clinic, mayo clinic, John Hopkins.

But the stupid Irish put up with it time and time again. Makes it easy for politicians and permanent government.

Wanderer78

brendanwalsh wrote:

The United States is at the forefront of providing healthcare due to the private nature of it.

Hahahahahahaha!

salmocab

brendanwalsh wrote: »

This is a disgrace.

Government should halt construction now, re-tender the project with a maximum price of 500 million or whatever the status quo for a hospital in the United states is. In fact, just buy a blueprint from a US company who are experts in building hospitals.

The United States is at the forefront of providing healthcare due to the private nature of it.

We have a country and population that isn't even as big as most states in America, yet we are going to have a hospital that is more expensive than the premier centres of excellence in the entire world- cleveland clinic, mayo clinic, John Hopkins.

We couldn’t build a hospital for half a billion that’s just fanciful. That initial costing was pure pie in the sky. We do need to stop and take stock of where we’re at but knee jerk reactions like this and someone else saying bam should have extra taxes put on them is just silly and furthers nothing.

v638sg7k1a92bx

This may have been asked but why was this site picked in the first place?