Paying for sex

whisky_galore · 22-10-2019 9:25pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

My question wasn't how you feel about people's sisters, daughters and nieces, it was how you would feel if it was yours? Would you feel comfortable with your neighbours knowing? Would you be happy for her? Would you worry about her

My solution is full legalisation with strong protections for sex workers and mandatory STD tests every month, as well as the full force of the law being brought down on sex traffickers. I believe we should try and strike a balance between legal and 'normalised'. I don't think young men thinking paying women for sex should be considered ideal.

At the end of the day, they are grown adults and they make their own choices. There's people living on the streets, or problems with staying out of trouble or hitting the drink etc who I'm sure have family at home, there's a limit to what can be done.

Think it's telling that the best publicised agency for helping sex workers here has direct lineage from Magdalene Laundries and still traces of Church notions here of what is 'decent' and what is not.

Oh bless whatever will the neighbours think?

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 9:31pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

At the end of the day, they are grown adults and they make their own choices. There's people living on the streets, or problems with staying out of trouble or hitting the drink etc who I'm sure have family at home, there's a limit to what can be done.

Think it's telling that the best publicised agency for helping sex workers here has direct lineage from Magdalene Laundries and still traces of Church notions here of what is 'decent' and what is not.

Oh bless whatever will the neighbours think?

From your comparisons with homeless people and addicts, I assume you don't consider prostitution an ideal career for someone you care about then.

And of course it doesn't really matter what the neighbours think - I asked the question to get people thinking about whether this is something they would be proud of if it was their daughter. I imagine most people, no matter what their socioeconomic background, would want better than that for their daughters.

Wayne Jarvis · 22-10-2019 9:32pm

I must say I am surprised that a thread on After Hours about the morality of prostitution has such wildly opposing views on it.

anewme · 22-10-2019 9:34pm

Supervillain wrote: »

I interesting quote form the resident escort:

"Haha yes I have! I have met quiet a few young attractive guys! Guys who I would 100% be interested in in a "normal" situation"

Interesting first post.

FurtherAway · 22-10-2019 9:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok,

I'll ask you one simple question:

Should a woman have a right to choose to have sex in return for financial gain?

A woman should of course have the right to choose. The problem is, that many do not have any such choice - they are forced to do it. Before you go off telling us all again that legislation would solve that, may I point you to Germany where prostitution is, in fact, legal, yet the numbers of trafficked women remains painfully high. In fact, the problem has gotten worse.

https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-trafficking-persists-despite-legality-of-prostitution-in-germany-a-902533-3.html

Which brings me right back to my original questions: How do you know the woman lying there for your pleasure is doing so because she wants to and not because she is forced to or mentally ill or both? And do you seriously believe she's gonna tell you the truth if it's the latter? Now that I've answered your question, I'm sure you won't mind answering mine.

leggo · 22-10-2019 9:36pm

I actually think that that AMA did more harm than good. I re-read some of it off the back of this thread and she even spoke about trafficking and how awful it was, but all that seems to have been taken from it is “One girl said she was okay with her life as a prostitute, therefore all of them are. I am woke now and believe in equality.”

I literally dealt with prostitutes on a near-daily basis working in an adult store for a few years. They’d open up and chat away to the girls while there, there was ALWAYS a backstory and a qualifier almost for why they did what they did. Not once did I hear “I do this because I enjoy it.” That’s not to say it doesn’t exist, but it wasn’t reflected in my experience. The ones who had pimps/security got pocket money rather than wages and it represented a pittance of what they brought in. There were a lot of trans girls who did it because they couldn’t get hired anywhere else and had little luck dating, the poor things were often wild and you could spot their mental health issues a mile off. There were other girls who’d get shushed by their big Eastern European pimps if they tried to talk (and they’d listen, they were afraid), get paraded around and told what underwear to try on and get prodded like cattle. What you lads think is the reality is not the reality. And I haven’t even brought human trafficking into it because as if they were allowed talk about that.

corner of hells · 22-10-2019 9:39pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

At the end of the day, they are grown adults and they make their own choices. There's people living on the streets, or problems with staying out of trouble or hitting the drink etc who I'm sure have family at home, there's a limit to what can be done.

Think it's telling that the best publicised agency for helping sex workers here has direct lineage from Magdalene Laundries and still traces of Church notions here of what is 'decent' and what is not.

Oh bless whatever will the neighbours think?

Theres actually quite a few groups or individuals working within low threshold agencies working under an umbrella term of working with marginalised women. Theres quite a few outreach groups now offering support.

Ruhamas infamy makes it well known.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 9:39pm

The only women I know personally who were sex workers were going through addiction issues at the time and sold their bodies to pay for the next hit.

I can't imagine how it's even enjoyable to know a skeletal heroin-addicted woman is allowing you to penetrate her just so she can get a fix.

BorneTobyWilde · 22-10-2019 9:45pm

All about the money. She's probably doing to have sex with someone that night anyway, so why not take the 2k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25l8bDPPg-o

jaxxx · 22-10-2019 9:46pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

The only women I know personally who were sex workers were going through addiction issues at the time and sold their bodies to pay for the next hit.

I can't imagine how it's even enjoyable to know a skeletal heroin-addicted woman is allowing you to penetrate her just so she can get a fix.

So are you then inferring then that all other sex workers must follow the same suit of being addicted to drugs, simply because you know someone who did? What utter rubbish.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 9:49pm

jaxxx wrote: »

So are you then inferring then that all other sex workers must follow the same suit of being addicted to drugs, simply because you know someone who did? What utter rubbish.

No, I didn't say that at all. I specifically said it in relation to women I have known personally. I know recovering addicts who sold their bodies to pay for drugs. I have never met a middle class woman who went into prostitution because she enjoyed the flexible hours.

I am not suggesting my experience represents all experiences.

Reviews and Books Galore · 22-10-2019 9:53pm

I imagine they get into drugs due to too much money and too much free time imo.

Reviews and Books Galore · 22-10-2019 9:54pm

anewme wrote: »

Very sad that vulnerable people do this to survive.

Imagine the mental health of people working in these conditions.

Have you evere cared about men in meat factories, sewrage or other highly physical jobs where they face constant stress of injuries?

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 9:55pm

If you choose to pay for sex, be honest with yourself about it.

There is a good chance that the person whose body you are paying for is:

- a victim of addiction
- a victim of dire poverty
- a victim of sex trafficking

No, not 100% of them. But most of you are using cognitive dissonance to avoid thinking about how the women you pay for sex came to be in the position they are in. If you were honest with yourself, it's not what you would want for anyone you love.

Wayne Jarvis · 22-10-2019 9:55pm

leggo wrote: »

I literally dealt with prostitutes on a near-daily basis working in an adult store for a few years. They’d open up and chat away to the girls while there

I assume by adult store you mean where they sell dildos, butt plugs and the like? Serious question but why would prostitutes be in there every day?

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 9:56pm

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Have you evere cared about men in meat factories, sewrage or other highly physical jobs where they face constant stress of injuries?

Yes, i'm capable of having compassion for people in all kinds of difficult circumstances.

Weird tangent tbh.

Reviews and Books Galore · 22-10-2019 9:59pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

Yes, i'm capable of having compassion for people in all kinds of difficult circumstances.

Weird tangent tbh.

Why is it weird? I imagine more human trafficking is happening in regards to the dirty minimum wage jobs in Europe than the prostitution imo.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 10:01pm

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Why is it weird? I imagine more human trafficking is happening in regards to the dirty minimum wage jobs in Europe than the prostitution imo.

I don't think that's true at all. You did indeed imagine it.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 10:08pm

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Why is it weird? I imagine more human trafficking is happening in regards to the dirty minimum wage jobs in Europe than the prostitution imo.

Also, and it's hard to believe that this even has to be said - all human trafficking is bad. There is no level of human trafficking that I'm okay with.

Being trafficked into the sex industry is arguably one of the worst forms of it, but none of them are acceptable.

If your argument is "I'm okay with women being forced into prostitution because sometimes men are forced to do unpleasant jobs", I suggest you take a long, hard look at yourself.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 10:09pm

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

Do you assume that people who believe prostitution should be legal pay for sex?

No, because I believe prostitution should be legal and I do not pay for sex. I consider it the 'least-worst' option.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 10:14pm

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

Perhaps you should consider that the prostitutes who choose to do it and are happy with the choice are smart enough not to let people like you know about it. For example the boards AMA escort. Only one person knows what she does apart from her clients. She does it part time.

There is likely a selection bias you are seeing, the basket cases are careless. The smart middle class ones are discrete, nobody is any the wiser of the visits to their apartment.

Did you read the part of that AMA where the escort talked about the rampant sex trafficking, or did you only read the bits that suited you?

anewme · 22-10-2019 10:18pm

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

When exactly did I say sex trafficking doesn't occur?

Even one occurance of this is too many.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 10:18pm

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

When exactly did I say sex trafficking doesn't occur?

Okay, so you understand that sex trafficking occurs, and you understand that there are many women with addiction issues (basket cases, I think you called them) involved in the sex industry.

Do you see any moral issue with supporting those who profit off such vulnerable people?

leggo · 22-10-2019 10:24pm

Guy Person wrote: »

I assume by adult store you mean where they sell dildos, butt plugs and the like? Serious question but why would prostitutes be in there every day?

Lingerie, toys, lube etc. The same ones wouldn’t be in every day but we’d have our regulars who’d be in weekly, some a couple times a week. But they’d be some of the most regular customers, because it’s a part of their job obviously, and it’d be a liberal place so they’d feel like they’d open up and the girls would hear most of their stories eventually.

We had one who had to hide in the fitting rooms once because a lad recognised her and started following her around town. I asked him to leave but he waited outside, so we called the guards (which we had to talk her into, she was foreign so there was a language barrier, so we just said that if he said anything to lie).

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 10:24pm

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

Indeed I do, that's why prostitution should be made legal and regulated.

And while that is also my position - again, as the least-worst option - did you read the article on the previous page about sex trafficking in Germany, where it is legal. It hasn't solved the problem, and you could say it has made it worse.

Reducing demand is crucial.

leggo · 22-10-2019 10:42pm

kiki_the_third wrote: »

And while that is also my position - again, as the least-worst option - did you read the article on the previous page about sex trafficking in Germany, where it is legal. It hasn't solved the problem, and you could say it has made it worse.

Reducing demand is crucial.

There’s no reducing demand. Online has made it practically impenetrable. You can see the logic lads use to talk themselves around it spelled out here, some have convinced themselves that they’re actually the moral ones. Legalising and regulating strictly is the best shot at offering any kind of protection, but it’s not a realistic goal. Old people vote in Ireland and they’re not going to come out for this, which isn’t going to force political pressure, and you’re not going to get the same groups that pushed SSM/repeal campaigning for that.

leggo · 22-10-2019 10:43pm

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

You can never eradicate crime completely. Purchasers of sex should have a way to verify that the sellers are registered and willing. Perhaps a government certificate could be issued to each registered sex worker.

Johns are not the concern here. Any regulation should be focused at protecting prostitutes. If you want to pay for sex and bad **** happens...that’s on you.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 10:45pm

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

You can never eradicate crime completely. Purchasers of sex should have a way to verify that the sellers are registered and willing. Perhaps a government certificate could be issued to each registered sex worker.

The goal is not to eradicate it completely, it's to reduce it as much as possible. You'll never completely eradicate robbery, does that mean we should stop trying to prevent it?

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 10:47pm

leggo wrote: »

There’s no reducing demand. Online has made it practically impenetrable. You can see the logic lads use to talk themselves around it spelled out here, some have convinced themselves that they’re actually the moral ones. Legalising and regulating strictly is the best shot at offering any kind of protection, but it’s not a realistic goal. Old people vote in Ireland and they’re not going to come out for this, which isn’t going to force political pressure, and you’re not going to get the same groups that pushed SSM/repeal campaigning for that.

I could be wrong but I don't think it would require a referendum. Change is slow but it happens. In the 80s you could bring the kids to a smoky pub, drink all night and drive home. Incremental societal change is the key. Protections for sex workers and education for young people. Harsh penalties for trafficking.

kiki_the_third · 22-10-2019 10:50pm

Canelo Kovalev wrote: »

Women should be given the choice to have sex for money if they so wish. As should men be given the choice to have sex for money. People should be free to choose for themselves.

It seems like you're not listening. Most sex workers are vulnerable members of society. They often come from backgrounds of poverty, addiction or trafficking, and can be underage.

So if you're going to a prostitute, and you can be sure she's:

- over 18
- in the country legally and of her own free will
- not from a vulnerable background

then sure, **** her.

But the thing is you'll never be sure of all of that. You'll always be placing your sexual gratification above another human's dignity.

Paying for sex

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