Do you consider nationalists from Northern Ireland to be Irish?

riffmongous · 14-10-2019 1:08pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

I think that's fair enough really - NI is part of the UK after all.

It's just a citizenship thing really, a bit different to whether they are Irish or not

Sleeper12 · 14-10-2019 1:44pm

Deleted User wrote:

British Isles has officially been dropped by Irish Government policy since approx 2007. What happened a 100 years before that or what was previously taught in some in some schools in the past is irrelevant unless, you're Irish, and wish to be argumentative.

Just so we are clear here. You now agree with me that it was indeed recognised by the Irish government as British Isles until about 10 years ago?

Mad_maxx · 14-10-2019 2:24pm

alastair wrote: »

Orangeism is also Irish culture and heritage. Plenty of NI unionist and loyalist culture is specific to Ireland, albeit a different culture to Nationalists.

That's incorrect, "orangeism" is not specific to Ireland, it is a very large part of Scottish culture and is found in Canada and New Zealand as well

Sleeper12 · 14-10-2019 2:31pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Why not? We don't say Irish Isles when we mean Ireland and it's islands, we just say Ireland.

We are not talking about Ireland & it's isles. We aren't taking about Brittan & it's isles. We are talking about a geographical grouping of 500 islands known worldwide as the British isles.

blanch152 · 14-10-2019 2:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, this is timed well for this thread.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1014/1083271-desouza-citizenship/

The UK Home Office/immigration tribunal considers people born in NI to be automatically British citizens.

I didn't expect any other outcome.

The GFA does give her the right to be Irish, but she has to exercise that right. She hasn't exercised that right so the default applies.

Also, as I have pointed out numerous times in the thread, residency, domicile, citizenship and nationality have different legal bases for deciding whether you are Irish or British or something else. Identity and cultural affinity are for each individual to decide.

Mad_maxx · 14-10-2019 3:03pm

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Because its my belief that people from protestant and unionist backgrounds in NI who identify solely as British are not Irish. Others disagree and that's fine. But the PUL community in the North do not partake in any Irish culture, have little or no Irish heritage and declare their loyalty to the UK.

It's a bit more than that, Many unionists define themselves by their hatred of irishness and Irish culture

14-10-2019 3:50pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Just so we are clear here. You now agree with me that it was indeed recognised by the Irish government as British Isles until about 10 years ago?

Not that I know of - has the Irish government ever accepted it as a term? They did come out and expressly say it wasn't a term they recognised around 2007.

No need to confirm you understand the difference. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt :P

alastair · 14-10-2019 3:53pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

That's incorrect, "orangeism" is not specific to Ireland, it is a very large part of Scottish culture and is found in Canada and New Zealand as well

Only as exports from NI. It’s a tradition founded and centred in NI. Plenty of Irish dancing to be found in Birmingham and Queens, but that doesn’t mean it’s not an Irish-specific tradition.

alastair · 14-10-2019 3:55pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Call what Britain & Ireland? You must have realised by now that we are talking about a grouping of 500 islands. Calling them Britain and Ireland is hardly suitable. Or are you referring to just the two main islands Ireland and Britain?

All the Islands are either British or Irish - so Britain and Ireland is a perfect term for all the Islands.

Sleeper12 · 14-10-2019 4:04pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Not that I know of - has the Irish government ever accepted it as a term? They did come out and expressly say it wasn't a term they recognised around 2007.

No need to confirm you understand the difference. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt :P

Yes. Of course the Irish government accepted the name. They paid teachers to tell us about it.

Here's the thing. No Irish government has had the balls to actually tell the world what their preferred wording is. This is the ultimate wimp. You tell the world that you find something offensive yet you refuse to tell the world how you would like them to address it.

Irish Government: Don't call it this because it offends our country.

Rest of the world: What should I call it.

Irish Government: I'm not going to tell you!

Until the government come out & tell the world the preferred term actually is then "British Isles" it is

14-10-2019 4:07pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Yes. Of course the Irish government accepted the name. They paid teachers to tell us about it.

Here's the thing. No Irish government has had the balls to actually tell the world what their preferred wording is. This is the ultimate wimp. You tell the world that you find something offensive yet you refuse to tell the world how you would like them to address it.

Irish Government: Don't call it this because it offends our country.

Rest of the world: What should I call it.

Irish Government: I'm not going to tell you!

Until the government come out & tell the world the preferred term actually is then "British Isles" it is

Maybe, just maybe, they have bigger fish to fry rather than come up with a name other than one with a British possessive adjective. It really is okay not to name something, but say you're not okay with a certain description.

Sleeper12 · 14-10-2019 4:08pm

alastair wrote: »

All the Islands are either British or Irish - so Britain and Ireland is a perfect term for all the Islands.

No. Britain & Ireland describes two countries. British Isles is a geographical term. It describes a Massive area. You could try British & Irish isles but until Irish Government announce the preferred term it's British Isles. This is the term the Irish education system taught us.

alastair · 14-10-2019 4:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Not that I know of - has the Irish government ever accepted it as a term? They did come out and expressly say it wasn't a term they recognised around 2007.

No need to confirm you understand the difference. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt :P

Sean McBride, as minister for external affairs in 1951, made clear to the UN that they shouldn’t use the term to refer to a regional grouping. It’s been avoided by the UN ever since. So clearly the State have not accepted it from well before 2007.

Mad_maxx · 14-10-2019 4:15pm

alastair wrote: »

Only as exports from NI. It’s a tradition founded and centred in NI. Plenty of Irish dancing to be found in Birmingham and Queens, but that doesn’t mean it’s not an Irish-specific tradition.

Ulster unionist culture is a transfered culture from Scotland, ulster protestants are Scots who happen to live in Ireland

alastair · 14-10-2019 4:15pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

No. Britain & Ireland describes two countries. British Isles is a geographical term. It describes a Massive area. You could try British & Irish isles but until Irish Government announce the preferred term it's British Isles. This is the term the Irish education system taught us.

Britain and Ireland is a geographic term too. Precisely the same geographic area as the other term.

Sleeper12 · 14-10-2019 4:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe, they have bigger fish to fry rather than come up with a name other than one with a British possessive adjective. It really is okay not to name something, but say you're not okay with a certain description.

Let me get this straight. This term has bothered the Irish government for a hundred years yet it continued to educate it's children that it's British Isles for all this time. Ten years ago it announced that it doesn't recognize the name but refuses to tell us the preferred name.

You are now telling me that the government hasn't had the time to setup a committee to come up with proposals? Too busy for the last 10, 20 50, 70 years???You honestly believe that?

Here's what I believe. I think the Irish government could really care less one way or Another. A minister making comments & not following through is called playing to the audience. If they cared they would come up with a wording.

alastair · 14-10-2019 4:17pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Ulster unionist culture is a transfered culture from Scotland, ulster protestants are Scots who happen to live in Ireland

Orangeism was born in NI. It wasn’t imported from anywhere.

locum-motion · 14-10-2019 4:18pm

Your poll options are inadequate.

Any Northern Irish person is free to consider themselves "Irish", or "Northern Irish", or "British", or any two of the above, or all three.

Similarly, a Scot can consider themselves to be "Scottish", or "British", or both.

A Welshman can consider themselves to be "Welsh", or "British", or both.

The problem arises from the fact that even if you add all of the above people together, they are still vastly outnumbered by the English.

And the English consider that "English" and "British" are one and the same thing. This could be for a couple of reasons; some of them simply haven't considered the possibility that they're not the same, while (possibly more worrying) they have considered it, and they simply do not care.

And frankly your poll option betray this bias!

alastair · 14-10-2019 4:20pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Let me get this straight. This term has bothered the Irish government for a hundred years yet it continued to educate it's children that it's British Isles for all this time. Ten years ago it announced that it doesn't recognize the name but refuses to tell us the preferred name.

You are now telling me that the government hasn't had the time to setup a committee to come up with proposals? Too busy for the last 10, 20 50, 70 years???You honestly believe that?

Here's what I believe. I think the Irish government could really care less one way or Another. A minister making comments & not following through is called playing to the audience. If they cared they would come up with a wording.

Keep burying that head in the sand. The State have never endorsed the term. They have done quite the contrary. The State don’t have any input into geography textbooks, that’s a matter for the publishers.

Fornevermore · 14-10-2019 4:20pm

Everyone born in Ireland is Irish. It's a simple fact. Unionists need to cop on.

Sinbad_NI · 14-10-2019 4:28pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

It's a bit more than that, Many unionists define themselves by their hatred of irishness and Irish culture

The reverse is also true.

alastair · 14-10-2019 4:30pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Yes. Of course the Irish government accepted the name. They paid teachers to tell us about it.

Here's the thing. No Irish government has had the balls to actually tell the world what their preferred wording is. This is the ultimate wimp. You tell the world that you find something offensive yet you refuse to tell the world how you would like them to address it.

Irish Government: Don't call it this because it offends our country.

Rest of the world: What should I call it.

Irish Government: I'm not going to tell you!

Until the government come out & tell the world the preferred term actually is then "British Isles" it is

Frank Aiken’s suggestion, as minister for external affairs to a U.K. publisher in 1969; ‘Ireland and Britain, or some such terminology’. He said ‘British Isles’ should not be used.

Fornevermore · 14-10-2019 4:30pm

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

The reverse is also true.

Wrong.

Fornevermore · 14-10-2019 4:31pm

Call it the Irish Isles. **** them.

14-10-2019 4:37pm

alastair wrote: »

Frank Aiken’s suggestion, as minister for external affairs to a U.K. publisher in 1969; ‘Ireland and Britain, or some such terminology’. He said ‘British Isles’ should not be used.

He's now going to come back and say his teacher called it the British Isles, defacto every teacher called it the British Isles and the Irish government should not accept anything other than the British Isles.

Fecking teacher, they do say they have a great influence on people.

Sinbad_NI · 14-10-2019 4:39pm

Fornevermore wrote: »

Wrong.

Certainly not everyone of course, but many, certainly in this part of the world anyway.

riffmongous · 14-10-2019 4:40pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

We are not talking about Ireland & it's isles. We aren't taking about Brittan & it's isles. We are talking about a geographical grouping of 500 islands known worldwide as the British isles.

That makes no sense.. if Ireland is acceptable why isn't Britain and Ireland?

Fornevermore · 14-10-2019 4:40pm

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Certainly not everyone of course, but many, certainly in this part of the world anyway.

They define themselves as Irish. Many unionists just align themselves with anything anti Irish.

alastair · 14-10-2019 4:45pm

Fornevermore wrote: »

They define themselves as Irish. Many unionists just align themselves with anything anti Irish.

Maybe so, but if you identify as an Ulster man/woman, that’s an Irish identity too. Just from a different tradition. Just like Cork people. Insular cranks with silly accents. 😛

Sinbad_NI · 14-10-2019 4:45pm

Fornevermore wrote: »

They define themselves as Irish. Many unionists just align themselves with anything anti Irish.

Don't agree at all.

Do you consider nationalists from Northern Ireland to be Irish?

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