Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

pjohnson · 29-09-2019 08:22AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

FE isn’t the only alternative. It just happens to have Attracted more manufacturers i it’s 5 years than f1 can currently manage after its 70 odd years.

I’m not wedded to f1. I’ll probably just follow the formula that had greatest appeal to me. Will you follow f1 no matter what?

If FE is so much better why do you watch F1?

El_Duderino 09 · 29-09-2019 09:01AM

skipper_G wrote: »

If FE is the future as you seem to think then in the end F1 will be dead and I'll be watching whatever is left I suppose. I think you're patently wrong and nothing you've said has shifted my opinion.

It's an alien concept to some, if you hate F1 don't watch it. I actually enjoy watching and will continue to do so for as long as my interest is held. It's not perfect, but then nothing is.

You’re stuck on FE vs F1. My point was that F1 originally had a natural purpose to developing ICEs because they were the future. It has lost that edge because ICEs are the present but they’re not the long term future like they were in the 1950s.

Don’t take my word for it. Even with a tiny sport, in its infancy and as you pointed out, lower viewership and revenue, the manufacturers are skipping F1 and moving to FE in greater numbers.

El_Duderino 09 · 29-09-2019 09:03AM

pjohnson wrote: »

If FE is so much better why do you watch F1?

Maybe I watch both.

I suppose I needs to be said again. I’m saying f1 has lost the edge that it once had, of being re sport developing the future technology. That doesn’t say anything about the spectacle. Just the fact that f1 has lost some of its brand appeal as the driver of future technology. Because ICEs aren’t future tech.

skipper_G · 29-09-2019 09:18AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You’re stuck on FE vs F1. My point was that F1 originally had a natural purpose to developing ICEs because they were the future. It has lost that edge because ICEs are the present but they’re not the long term future like they were in the 1950s.

Don’t take my word for it. Even with a tiny sport, in its infancy and as you pointed out, lower viewership and revenue, the manufacturers are skipping F1 and moving to FE in greater numbers.

But that's the point you're missing, electric is not the future. It's only part of the future. The ICE is also part of that future, where F1's relevance now is in the millions of R&D spent on making them last longer, run more efficiently and use less fuel. If you think that's not vital to the future of mobility on this planet then you need to think again.

El_Duderino 09 · 29-09-2019 09:20AM

skipper_G wrote: »

But that's the point you're missing, electric is not the future. It's only part of the future. The ICE is also part of that future, where F1's relevance now is in the millions of R&D spent on making them last longer, run more efficiently and use less fuel. If you think that's not vital to the future of mobility on this planet then you need to think again.

That’s true. And in the past the future wasn’t split like that. The ICE was the alternative to the horse and cart. And f1 was the pinnacle of ICE development in sport. It naturally had the monopoly. Now it doesn’t.

pjohnson · 29-09-2019 09:21AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Maybe I watch both.

I suppose I needs to be said again. I’m saying f1 has lost the edge that it once had, of being re sport developing the future technology. That doesn’t say anything about the spectacle. Just the fact that f1 has lost some of its brand appeal as the driver of future technology. Because ICEs aren’t future tech.

Thats only true if you ignore the fact ICE's are still developing for the future.....

El_Duderino 09 · 29-09-2019 10:04AM

pjohnson wrote: »

Thats only true if you ignore the fact ICE's are still developing for the future.....

Yeah. 4 manufacturers in f1. FE has 6 so far in a piddley little sport in its infancy, with paltry viewership and revenue by comparison to f1. Why’s FE finding it so easy to attract manufacturers?

pjohnson · 29-09-2019 10:32AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah. 4 manufacturers in f1. FE has 6 so far in a piddley little sport in its infancy, with paltry viewership and revenue by comparison to f1. Why’s FE finding it so easy to attract manufacturers?

Well the obvious answer would be because it is cheap? They dont need to spend to develop the chassis it is designed and set for them. In F1 manufacturers have to develop engine and chassis. F1 is expensive to enter and compete.

skipper_G · 29-09-2019 10:46AM

pjohnson wrote: »

Well the obvious answer would be because it is cheap? They dont need to spend to develop the chassis it is designed and set for them. In F1 manufacturers have to develop engine and chassis. F1 is expensive to enter and compete.

Bingo! And because there are so many standardised parts it's also very easy to be competitive with minimal investment. Then there's the benefit of them being seen to 'be green' from a marketing perspective, because some people blindly think: electric = good / ICE = bad.

Dont be at yourself · 29-09-2019 10:59AM

Never mind Formula E, you just need to look at Toyota's failed entry into F1 to understand why we don't have more manufacturers. Largest carmaker in the world, huge pedigree in motorsport, billions invested, and nothing to show for it after 8 years.

2021 rules badly need to lower the barriers to entry to new manufacturers. Budgets caps, more equitable revenue distribution, more standard parts or open-sourced designs -- that will do more to attract manufacturers than the prospect of improving their green credentials or 'road relevance'.

recyclebin · 29-09-2019 12:09PM

Should we be worried about Renaults future in the sport? Will they continue on there own in the long term? The loss of engine data from other teams will be huge especially if the the current engine format changes from 2021 onwards.

shamrock55 · 29-09-2019 12:29PM

Just let vettal drive on, what's with this swapping crap
If you want to win a race you need to bloody earn it

skipper_G · 29-09-2019 12:44PM

shamrock55 wrote: »

Just let vettal drive on, what's with this swapping crap
If you want to win a race you need to bloody earn it

There's a race thread for Russia here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058018572/2/#post111377863

Harika · 29-09-2019 05:48PM

Vettel retirement is becoming more likely after today's oopsi

PopePalpatine · 29-09-2019 07:09PM

If Vettel and Leclerc were paired in either Red Bull or Merc I'd be looking forward to an explosive title fight next year like 1989, but Ferrari gonna Ferrari.

El_Duderino 09 · 29-09-2019 08:28PM

pjohnson wrote: »

Well the obvious answer would be because it is cheap? They dont need to spend to develop the chassis it is designed and set for them. In F1 manufacturers have to develop engine and chassis. F1 is expensive to enter and compete.

That would be a reason for private teams who can’t afford F1, to enter FE Manufacturers want maximum exposure which they won’t get in FE at the moment. So I wonder what other element they find attractive about FE. I wonder, I wonder....

quokula · 29-09-2019 08:33PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

If Vettel and Leclerc were paired in either Red Bull or Merc I'd be looking forward to an explosive title fight next year like 1989, but Ferrari gonna Ferrari.

In fairness there’s no chance in hell Merc would purposely put two top drivers in the team. It was an unfortunate fluke that reliable journeyman Rosberg turned out to be regularly competitive with Hamilton, and they soon put paid to that by hiring the most reliably underwhelming driver on the grid to replace him.

Ridiculous the amount of stupidity going on at Ferrari though. It’s like they’re trying to piss Vettel off.

quokula · 29-09-2019 08:40PM

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Never mind Formula E, you just need to look at Toyota's failed entry into F1 to understand why we don't have more manufacturers. Largest carmaker in the world, huge pedigree in motorsport, billions invested, and nothing to show for it after 8 years.

2021 rules badly need to lower the barriers to entry to new manufacturers. Budgets caps, more equitable revenue distribution, more standard parts or open-sourced designs -- that will do more to attract manufacturers than the prospect of improving their green credentials or 'road relevance'.

I don’t understand the obsession with manufacturers anyway. When I first got into F1 there was McLaren, Williams, Ligier, Jordan, Sauber, Lotus, Tyrrell, Benetton, Minardi etc - the only manufacturer on the grid were Ferrari, who are unique because they were an F1 team first and sold cars later to fund the F1.

Further back before my time there were periods when the entire grid were using cosworth engines. Manufacturers have dipped in and out throughout history, but it’s really only in the last 10 a 15 years that they’ve become the dominant force to the detriment of proper old fashioned racing teams.

Personally I’d be happy if they all jumped ship to FE and we returned to a proper sport rather than a R&D / marketing exercise for the likes of Mercedes.

AMKC · 29-09-2019 08:46PM

recyclebin wrote: »

Should we be worried about Renaults future in the sport? Will they continue on there own in the long term? The loss of engine data from other teams will be huge especially if the the current engine format changes from 2021 onwards.

Lots can happen between now and 2021. I would not be so worried unless there is a recession or worse otherwise I think they are in it for the long term.
If new teams come in Renault will be in the perfect position to supply them and am sure they could get some deal from the FIA for doing it too.

pjohnson · 29-09-2019 08:51PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That would be a reason for private teams who can’t afford F1, to enter FE Manufacturers want maximum exposure which they won’t get in FE at the moment. So I wonder what other element they find attractive about FE. I wonder, I wonder....

Manufacturers just want easy money. FE is lost cost to enter and is a (per Season 5 figures) rapidly growing market. Growing market = increasing returns. Low cost and effort required to enter then yielding potential decent returns = very attractive and no real risk attached.

Its just basic business. "Future" doesnt make money, low risk investments are a no brainer.

GarIT · 29-09-2019 10:49PM

I would pay good money to be able to watch F1 with commentary in English without ever having to hear Paul DiResta say "meejum tyre" again.

uchimata83 · 30-09-2019 07:16AM

GarIT wrote: »

I would pay good money to be able to watch F1 with commentary in English without ever having to hear Paul DiResta say "meejum tyre" again.

Brutal, where was Brundle today? It's a clown show without him

murphyebass · 30-09-2019 07:49AM

Can’t wait for all these rule changes. Yesterday was so boring.

Crofty said something all the lines of not a lot of wheel to wheel action today but the strategies are fascinating.

Ok the strategy is interesting to a point but come on! I watch motorsport to see wheel to wheel action, overtakes etc.. not bleeding strategy.

Knowing that it’ll be Ferrari, Mercedes, to a lesser extent Red Bull and then don’t concern yourself with the rest is boring.

I watched a bit of the formula e this year. It had a different winner every other race. Everyone has a chance.

Ps.. I’m not the biggest Vettel fan but when Charles le clerc went all man child on the radio AGAIN yesterday I wanted to punch him and for Vettel to win just to spite the little spoilt child. But alas, Ferrari be Ferrari. Ugh

PopePalpatine · 30-09-2019 08:11AM

uchimata83 wrote: »

GarIT wrote: »

I would pay good money to be able to watch F1 with commentary in English without ever having to hear Paul DiResta say "meejum tyre" again.

Brutal, where was Brundle today? It's a clown show without him

He misses a few races every year because of health concerns. Sure beats putting up with David Croft's shïtstirring.

GarIT · 30-09-2019 08:14AM

murphyebass wrote: »

Can’t wait for all these rule changes. Yesterday was so boring.

Crofty said something all the lines of not a lot of wheel to wheel action today but the strategies are fascinating.

Ok the strategy is interesting to a point but come on! I watch motorsport to see wheel to wheel action, overtakes etc.. not bleeding strategy.

Knowing that it’ll be Ferrari, Mercedes, to a lesser extent Red Bull and then don’t concern yourself with the rest is boring.

I watched a bit of the formula e this year. It had a different winner every other race. Everyone has a chance.

Ps.. I’m not the biggest Vettel fan but when Charles le clerc went all man child on the radio AGAIN yesterday I wanted to punch him and for Vettel to win just to spite the little spoilt child. But alas, Ferrari be Ferrari. Ugh

I watch for the strategy couldn't really care who is overtaking who.

And I feel the opposite about the Ferrari situation, LeClerc would be far ahead of Vettel if LeClerc wasn't playing the team game all the time and then Vettel won't give back the help he is being given. Vettel needs to be dropped for Hulk or Alonso. Whatever happens LeClerc needs to stop playing the team game and get talking to Mercedes and Red Bull.

meeeeh · 30-09-2019 08:22AM

There is a running joke in our house that according to Autosport Ferrari should give a chance to Kubica and Hulkenberg. They deserve it.

No sane Ferrari fan would want either Hulkenberg or Alonso. One had enough chances and didn't even manage the podium and the other one would burn down his own garage if it suited them. Maybe Mercedes should replace Bottas with one of them or maybe they should both go to McLaren. I'm sure they will win everything next year with their fastest chassis on the grid.

Anyway Vettel and Leclerc is good, despite their bickering Ferrari can actually attempt strategic racing using their second driver.

El_Duderino 09 · 30-09-2019 08:23AM

pjohnson wrote: »

Manufacturers just want easy money. FE is lost cost to enter and is a (per Season 5 figures) rapidly growing market. Growing market = increasing returns. Low cost and effort required to enter then yielding potential decent returns = very attractive and no real risk attached.

Its just basic business. "Future" doesnt make money, low risk investments are a no brainer.

“Manufacturers just want easy money”
“Future” doesn’t make money”.

Ah here. You’re right about the growing viewership, but these two statements are miles off the mark.

“Future doesn’t make money” is a particular low point when discussing an industry that spends billions on future technologies.

As an example, Jaguar spent £100m on a “future technologies” research facility in Warwick. Then joined FE.

El_Duderino 09 · 30-09-2019 08:24AM

quokula wrote: »

I don’t understand the obsession with manufacturers anyway. When I first got into F1 there was McLaren, Williams, Ligier, Jordan, Sauber, Lotus, Tyrrell, Benetton, Minardi etc - the only manufacturer on the grid were Ferrari, who are unique because they were an F1 team first and sold cars later to fund the F1.

Further back before my time there were periods when the entire grid were using cosworth engines. Manufacturers have dipped in and out throughout history, but it’s really only in the last 10 a 15 years that they’ve become the dominant force to the detriment of proper old fashioned racing teams.

Personally I’d be happy if they all jumped ship to FE and we returned to a proper sport rather than a R&D / marketing exercise for the likes of Mercedes.

F1 behind a pay wall is probably a good start by driving down viewership.

pjohnson · 30-09-2019 08:51AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

“Manufacturers just want easy money”
“Future” doesn’t make money”.

Ah here. You’re right about the growing viewership, but these two statements are miles off the mark.

“Future doesn’t make money” is a particular low point when discussing an industry that spends billions on future technologies.

As an example, Jaguar spent £100m on a “future technologies” research facility in Warwick. Then joined FE.

Do you think 100m is a lot for industries like this? You realise that they still dont have to spend money on a wind tunnel, chassis designer, aerodynamicist etc?

How many manufacturers would stay in FE if the car wasnt set for them? It has half the production costs of F1. Electric is obviously a part of the appeal but it isn't the major factor. The cheapness and growing fanbase is the major appeal. The manufacturers missed the boat on F1 so hope they can make FE work. Even if Merc develop a good powertrain quickly it will damage FE badly if it becomes too predictable this early in its life. Hell even as it is FE have customer teams already.

shamrock55 · 30-09-2019 09:35AM

GarIT wrote: »

I watch for the strategy couldn't really care who is overtaking who.

And I feel the opposite about the Ferrari situation, LeClerc would be far ahead of Vettel if LeClerc wasn't playing the team game all the time and then Vettel won't give back the help he is being given. Vettel needs to be dropped for Hulk or Alonso. Whatever happens LeClerc needs to stop playing the team game and get talking to Mercedes and Red Bull.

You like strategy go watch chess, without overtaking and wheel to wheel action motor racing is pointless, it's a shame that the most exciting part of a f1 race is the start, once they get around the first corner it's pretty much a foregon conclusion and that's not right

Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

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