Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

shamrock55 · 22-09-2019 06:00PM

AMKC wrote: »

Oh FFS. Some of us have not seen the race yet. You just ruined it for me for Fu,ck sake. Use Spoilers if you want to post in here about the race before the highlights have been shown. There is a separate thread for the race to talk about it and post what you posted here.

Sorry about that chief

Autosport · 22-09-2019 06:06PM

That was accident was Grosjeans fault

Harika · 22-09-2019 07:28PM

If you only look at the last three races, you could think that Gasly has a good shot at the red bull cockpit next year.

Anjobe · 22-09-2019 08:44PM

vectra wrote: »

Never say never.
Resurgence in Ferrari might change things a bit.

Get real, Hamilton is 96 pts ahead of Leclerc and 102 pts ahead of Vettel. Even if one of them wins all 6 remaining races (highly unlikely) Hamilton would win the WDC if he keeps finishing 5th or 6th.

quokula · 22-09-2019 09:18PM

Yeah it would really need an unprecedented streak of DNFs for Hamilton to have any chance of a title fight at this stage.

vectra · 22-09-2019 09:22PM

Anjobe wrote: »

Get real, Hamilton is 96 pts ahead of Leclerc and 102 pts ahead of Vettel. Even if one of them wins all 6 remaining races (highly unlikely) Hamilton would win the WDC if he keeps finishing 5th or 6th.

Would you have said Get real 5 races ago I suggested Ferrari will get 3 poles and 3 wins in a row?
All it would take is for Hamilton to have one or 2 DNF's,
And as for finishing 5th or 6th?
He would possibly have only been 5th today if Bottas wasn't told to slow down to protect him.
Who would have thought Kimi would have won in 2007 4 races from Brazil final?

As I said, Never say never.

Anjobe · 22-09-2019 09:56PM

vectra wrote: »

Would you have said Get real 5 races ago I suggested Ferrari will get 3 poles and 3 wins in a row?
All it would take is for Hamilton to have one or 2 DNF's,
And as for finishing 5th or 6th?
He would possibly have only been 5th today if Bottas wasn't told to slow down to protect him.
Who would have thought Kimi would have won in 2007 4 races from Brazil final?

As I said, Never say never.

Well, Singapore was a surprise but it was not unexpected that Ferrari would be in contention at Spa and Monza. Congrats to them, their car is clearly competitive at a range of circuits now but its too late for this year. Hamilton could have finished 5th, he could also have finished higher if it wasn’t for strategy calls, and Mercedes obviously decided not to shaft him the way Ferrari did to Leclerc. A couple of DNFs would certainly make things interesting, but would be almost as unlikely as one of the Ferrari drivers winning all the remaining races, and one more win for Hamilton would put him out of reach. A string of freak results cannot be completely ruled out, but without that Ferrari have zero chance of winning either the constructors or drivers champs.

Infoanon · 22-09-2019 10:31PM

Anjobe wrote: »

vectra wrote: »

Never say never.
Resurgence in Ferrari might change things a bit.

Get real, Hamilton is 96 pts ahead of Leclerc and 102 pts ahead of Vettel. Even if one of them wins all 6 remaining races (highly unlikely) Hamilton would win the WDC if he keeps finishing 5th or 6th.

If Ferrari thought they had any chance of winning the championship they would have swapped Vettel and Leclerc around today

El_Duderino 09 · 22-09-2019 11:34PM

vectra wrote: »

Would you have said Get real 5 races ago I suggested Ferrari will get 3 poles and 3 wins in a row?
All it would take is for Hamilton to have one or 2 DNF's,
And as for finishing 5th or 6th?
He would possibly have only been 5th today if Bottas wasn't told to slow down to protect him.
Who would have thought Kimi would have won in 2007 4 races from Brazil final?

As I said, Never say never.

One dnf would close only a quarter of the gap.

It would take 4 dnfs and either max or Charles to win all those 4 races to even draw with him with 2 races left. They’re both on 200 points to Hamilton on 296.

The championship is over. There’s a good chance that if Hamilton didn’t take part in the rest of the season and still win the championship.

He’ll probably win another few of the remaining races and wrap it up in a couple of races time.

vectra · 23-09-2019 12:56AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

One dnf would close only a quarter of the gap.

It would take 4 dnfs and either max or Charles to win all those 4 races to even draw with him with 2 races left. They’re both on 200 points to Hamilton on 296.

The championship is over. There’s a good chance that if Hamilton didn’t take part in the rest of the season and still win the championship.

He’ll probably win another few of the remaining races and wrap it up in a couple of races time.

More than likely,
But, nobody can foresee the future.

This is it · 23-09-2019 07:29AM

vectra wrote: »

More than likely,
But, nobody can foresee the future.

No, but you can be fairly certain.

Lewis 1/100 to win, next favorite is LeClerc at 50/1.

H3llR4iser · 23-09-2019 11:31AM

As much as I would like it to be true, I don't buy into the "Ferrari resurgence" narrative. Sure, they brought a lot of updates post-break, the car has definitely improved, but as many said - they were expected to dominate in Spa and Monza, and they actually did not as Mercedes were right there with them, even with an absolutely ridiculous difference on the straights.

As for Singapore, are we really sure it was a "bad track" for Ferrari? It is a street course but it's a bit of a peculiar one - it's got a lot of stop-start segments, where power and traction make the difference, both areas in which the SF90 excels; Their time in qualifying was mostly made in sector 1, where they were no less than 0.3-0.4 ahead (I hadn't seen such difference on straights since the early '90s, with V8s against V10s and V12s). I would expect them to be competitive again in Sochi the coming week end, but I'll be curious to see how the car behaves on actual sweeping bends come Suzuka.

The reality is that without Leclerc's aggression in Monza, Vettel's helping hand in Spa and without both drivers AND the pitwall putting in perfect performances yesterday, these three victories wouldn't have happened.

Finally, the slew of updates brought in Singapore might be a bit worrisome - I understand they wanted to win some races this season, but it's the end of September, hopefully they aren't keeping focus away from next season's chassis in order to improve the current. Italian management, lack of prospective and all that...

uchimata83 · 23-09-2019 12:33PM

Theres a channel on Youtube called deeppius, has been posting the season reviews from 1997 up to 2004. I'm just finished watching 2003 and in hindsight, it really feels like the Jordan team really missed out on some great opportunties.

Honda coming back at the time did them no favours, but dropping from 3rd in the constructors in 99 to 6th in 00, behind BAR and Benneton, looks like it was the beginning of the end.

It's weird looking back on it now and it gives some great perspective on what they achieved in those first 8 years. I often wonder how much focus and finance that lost case vs Vodafone cost the team.

Cork Trucker · 23-09-2019 12:44PM

uchimata83 wrote: »

Theres a channel on Youtube called deeppius, has been posting the season reviews from 1997 up to 2004. I'm just finished watching 2003 and in hindsight, it really feels like the Jordan team really missed out on some great opportunties.

Honda coming back at the time did them no favours, but dropping from 3rd in the constructors in 99 to 6th in 00, behind BAR and Benneton, looks like it was the beginning of the end.

It's weird looking back on it now and it gives some great perspective on what they achieved in those first 8 years. I often wonder how much focus and finance that lost case vs Vodafone cost the team.

I always wondered how the Jordan livery would have been with Vodafone, in that would it have only been red where the logo was similar to McLaren or all red like Ferrari. Sacking Frentzen didn’t help team morale either in 2001

H3llR4iser · 23-09-2019 01:02PM

uchimata83 wrote: »

Theres a channel on Youtube called deeppius, has been posting the season reviews from 1997 up to 2004. I'm just finished watching 2003 and in hindsight, it really feels like the Jordan team really missed out on some great opportunties.

Honda coming back at the time did them no favours, but dropping from 3rd in the constructors in 99 to 6th in 00, behind BAR and Benneton, looks like it was the beginning of the end.

It's weird looking back on it now and it gives some great perspective on what they achieved in those first 8 years. I often wonder how much focus and finance that lost case vs Vodafone cost the team.

The Jordan team was impressive to say the least - when they debuted in 1991, they were right on the pace and seriously risked winning a race at Spa, but De Cesaris' proverbial luck struck again with an engine issue.

In 1999 they had a real chance at the WDC with Frentzen - in part due to the crazy nature of that season, but also because they had proper potential. I don't think they realized they were in contention until Monza, and promptly went to take pole in the next race - where it all unraveled with a retirement. Had Frentzen won that race, the outcome might have been very different.

Cork Trucker · 23-09-2019 01:11PM

H3llR4iser wrote: »

The Jordan team was impressive to say the least - when they debuted in 1991, they were right on the pace and seriously risked winning a race at Spa, but De Cesaris' proverbial luck struck again with an engine issue.

In 1999 they had a real chance at the WDC with Frentzen - in part due to the crazy nature of that season, but also because they had proper potential. I don't think they realized they were in contention until Monza, and promptly went to take pole in the next race - where it all unraveled with a retirement. Had Frentzen won that race, the outcome might have been very different.

Off the top of my head that year the top 4 in the drivers championship were

Hakkinen 76
Irvine 74
Frentzen 54
Coulthard 48

Constructors

Ferrari 128
McLaren 124
Jordan 61
Stewart 36

Jordan never stood a chance in the constructors due to Hill being so poor that year

I think the points figures are right.

Harika · 23-09-2019 01:18PM

True, during the season frentzen was really close to the two of them. He was 10 points behind

Cork Trucker · 23-09-2019 01:24PM

Harika wrote: »

True, during the season frentzen was really close to the two of them. He was 10 points behind

When you think of the points he lost that year

Australia, finished second after Ferrari got Irvine out first in the pit stops

Imola , retired after spinning out on Irvine’s oil.

Canada, crashed out towards the end due to brake failure, first ever race to finish under the safety car as a result

Nurburgring, retired with electrical failure while in the lead

uchimata83 · 23-09-2019 04:22PM

I'm certain that Hill wanted out at Silverstone in 99 and EJ said that he could retire as long as he compensated the team. And that probably sums up Eddie in a nutshell - rather than getting rid of a driver who didn't want to race, he tried to make a few quid off him and no one ended up happy.

I think there was no concorde agreement in place when he sold the team too (or some contractual agreement with the teams) when he sold it on too. Midland got it for a song and probably came close to doubling their money

Cork Trucker · 23-09-2019 04:40PM

uchimata83 wrote: »

I'm certain that Hill wanted out at Silverstone in 99 and EJ said that he could retire as long as he compensated the team. And that probably sums up Eddie in a nutshell - rather than getting rid of a driver who didn't want to race, he tried to make a few quid off him and no one ended up happy.

I think there was no concorde agreement in place when he sold the team too (or some contractual agreement with the teams) when he sold it on too. Midland got it for a song and probably came close to doubling their money

Not too far apart in what i heard at the time, that if Hill tried to quit then Jordan told him he'd sue him for breach of contract. Jos Verstappen was testing the car after Silverstone in preparation to step into the race seat, in all likelihood he wouldn't have done any worse.

Frank Bullitt · 23-09-2019 05:54PM

If only Ferrari had this pace from the start of the season...

chicorytip · 23-09-2019 09:50PM

Gintonious wrote: »

If only Ferrari had this pace from the start of the season...

I think they have had the pace all year and really should have six victories on the board by now.

El_Duderino 09 · 23-09-2019 10:09PM

chicorytip wrote: »

I think they have had the pace all year and really should have six victories on the board by now.

Yeah but they say they made some breakthroughs in understanding the car since the summer break. Ferrari has a terrible habit of nit understanding the car. last year they brought a new floor after the summer break which actually made the car slower. and they have often brought updates which don't work. Imagine the wasted money and the opportunity cost of developing something that doesn't even work. We never hear of Mercedes ballsing up like that.

Ferrari must be the worst value for money team on the grid

Frank Bullitt · 23-09-2019 10:47PM

chicorytip wrote: »

I think they have had the pace all year and really should have six victories on the board by now.

They were robbed at Bahrain in terms of reliability, and Canada was a travesty.

I hope this car serves as a good basis for them for 2020 at least.

As a side, I was quite happy to see Vettel win yesterday. Not everyone likes him but it was a classic Vettel drive of controlling from the front and doing a firm job at that.

Infoanon · 23-09-2019 10:55PM

Cork Trucker wrote: »

uchimata83 wrote: »

I'm certain that Hill wanted out at Silverstone in 99 and EJ said that he could retire as long as he compensated the team. And that probably sums up Eddie in a nutshell - rather than getting rid of a driver who didn't want to race, he tried to make a few quid off him and no one ended up happy.

I think there was no concorde agreement in place when he sold the team too (or some contractual agreement with the teams) when he sold it on too. Midland got it for a song and probably came close to doubling their money

Not too far apart in what i heard at the time, that if Hill tried to quit then Jordan told him he'd sue him for breach of contract. Jos Verstappen was testing the car after Silverstone in preparation to step into the race seat, in all likelihood he wouldn't have done any worse.

Damon Hill in his book says Eddie tried to replace him before Silverstone, Damon wanted to quit after Silverstone but then Eddie held him to his contract and Damon,fearful of losing everything financially, continued to the end of the season when he famously retired the car

Cork Trucker · 24-09-2019 07:45AM

Infoanon wrote: »

Damon Hill in his book says Eddie tried to replace him before Silverstone, Damon wanted to quit after Silverstone but then Eddie held him to his contract and Damon,fearful of losing everything financially, continued to the end of the season when he famously retired the car

Why did Eddie back out of replacing him before Silverstone? to allow him take part in the race? Vetstappen was the favourite to take that seat, but unknown to me until last night Nick Heidfeld was being permitted to take the drive as well, we all know how good friends Eddie was with Ron Dennis. Hill in Japan ran wide at spoon corner into the gravel and parked the car claiming it damaged, when the team checked it over the car was in perfect condition.

Infoanon · 24-09-2019 09:13AM

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Infoanon wrote: »

Damon Hill in his book says Eddie tried to replace him before Silverstone, Damon wanted to quit after Silverstone but then Eddie held him to his contract and Damon,fearful of losing everything financially, continued to the end of the season when he famously retired the car

Why did Eddie back out of replacing him before Silverstone? to allow him take part in the race? Vetstappen was the favourite to take that seat, but unknown to me until last night Nick Heidfeld was being permitted to take the drive n.

Damons book does not elaborate on that although you can come to the conclusion that this for EJ was pure business.
Damon clearly had lost all motivation, feared getting injured,thoughts of Eddie playing games giving him an inferior car even ran through his head and was only competitive at Silverstone.Graham Hill,Damons father death and how the family had been left penniless had a major impact on Damon and his last season (something he is very open about in the book )

Cork Trucker · 24-09-2019 09:31AM

Infoanon wrote: »

Damons book does not elaborate on that although you can come to the conclusion that this for EJ was pure business.
Damon clearly had lost all motivation, feared getting injured,thoughts of Eddie playing games giving him an inferior car even ran through his head and was only competitive at Silverstone.Graham Hill,Damons father death and how the family had been left penniless had a major impact on Damon and his last season (something he is very open about in the book )

I'll have to have a look at that book, Hill wasn't the worst of drivers, and i certainly feel he was hard done by with Williams in 1996 when they didn't renew the contract, i don't think he'd have successfully defended the title against Villeneuve but would have done better than Frenzten for 97, even when you look at it in the few short years how Hill & Frenzten's fortunes changed between 96-99. I can see where Damon was coming from with regards his own father and how anyone couldn't understand that is beyond me. Jordan was never the kind to just cut a contract on mutual terms, even when he sacked Frenzten, HH still got money out of EJ. I did a bit of reading up on the plane crash with Graham Hill, he had no licence, therefore no insurance or something and the relatives of those who died sued his estate, hence being penniless i think. Whatever occurred across the winter of 98/99, Hill was not the same driver. Is there any mention of his time with Arrows? Hungary 1997 is the stand out moment of course.

Robbo · 24-09-2019 10:01AM

Hill did an F1: Beyond the Grid podcast a few months ago that's well worth a listen. He goes into detail about the contractual situations he wound up in with Williams and Jordan.

vectra · 24-09-2019 02:00PM

Alfa lose German gp appeal.
https://formulaspy.com/f1/alfa-lose-appeal-over-german-grand-prix-disqualification-64737

Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

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