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Why did Jesus allow demons to enter a herd of pigs?

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    #212
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Iliana Cold Mayonnaise wrote: »
    We only have 1 man's version of the Muslim god whereas we have multiple people over thousands of years writing about the Christian/Jewish God.

    Who do you believe? 1 witness or many ?

    None of them are witnesses.


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    #213
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Wo
    ChrisJ84 wrote: »
    realdanbreen wrote: »
    So basicly what you're saying is that either 2.1 billion Christians are wrong or 1.3 billion muslims are wrong or both 3.4 billion are wrong!

    Yep, that's about the sum of it.
    Wow! I guess most of us in this little country are very lucky in that of the 4300 or so religions out there we happened to be born into the correct one.


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    #214
    ChrisJ84
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ChrisJ84


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Wo
    Wow! I guess most of us in this little country are very lucky in that of the 4300 or so religions out there we happened to be born into the correct one.

    I think our Christian heritage in this country is a real blessing, and I am thankful for it. It's also one of the reasons that Christianity has always had such a strong missionary impetus, so that others have the opportunity to hear the good news of the gospel.


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    #215
    JJayoo
    Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭JJayoo


    Maybe Jesus was gonna have the demon pigs butchered get some tasty demon rashers


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    #216
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    ChrisJ84 wrote: »
    Christians and Muslims do not believe in the same God.

    It doesn’t matter what they believe. It’s still the same God.


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    #217
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    So basicly what you're saying is that either 2.1 billion Christians are wrong or 1.3 billion muslims are wrong or both 3.4 billion are wrong!
    ChrisJ84 wrote: »
    Yep, that's about the sum of it.

    Hang on just a minute there. What makes you agree with the notion that there are 2.1 billion Christians out there? Hopefully not from any national census figures of people claiming to be Christian, given your previous stated position on what it means to be Christian which demands rather more than ticking a box on a form. :D


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    #218
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Effects wrote: »
    It doesn’t matter what they believe. It’s still the same God.

    And Ganesha?


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    #219
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    smacl wrote: »
    realdanbreen wrote: »
    So basicly what you're saying is that either 2.1 billion Christians are wrong or 1.3 billion muslims are wrong or both 3.4 billion are wrong!
    ChrisJ84 wrote: »
    Yep, that's about the sum of it.

    Hang on just a minute there. What makes you agree with the notion that there are 2.1 billion Christians out there? Hopefully not from any national census figures of people claiming to be Christian, given your previous stated position on what it means to be Christian which demands rather more than ticking a box on a form. :D
    Well I will admit that I relied on Google. Where's your figure coming from, did you count them?


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    #220
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    ChrisJ84 wrote: »
    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Wo
    Wow! I guess most of us in this little country are very lucky in that of the 4300 or so religions out there we happened to be born into the correct one.

    I think our Christian heritage in this country is a real blessing, and I am thankful for it. It's also one of the reasons that Christianity has always had such a strong missionary impetus, so that others have the opportunity to hear the good news of the gospel.
    Fair enough but I think what puts off most young people in particular from these religions (apart from the blind faith requirement ) is that the kernel of their teaching is that things will be better when you are dead.


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    #221
    ChrisJ84
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ChrisJ84


    The Nal wrote: »
    Until I was 12 or so, the Christian version, because thats how I was raised and didn't know any different/better.

    Fair enough. If you wanted to think about it again then I'd recommend reading Mark's gospel, with an open mind.


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    #222
    ChrisJ84
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ChrisJ84


    smacl wrote: »
    Hang on just a minute there. What makes you agree with the notion that there are 2.1 billion Christians out there? Hopefully not from any national census figures of people claiming to be Christian, given your previous stated position on what it means to be Christian which demands rather more than ticking a box on a form. :D

    Doh! :D


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    #223
    ChrisJ84
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ChrisJ84


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Fair enough but I think what puts off most young people in particular from these religions (apart from the blind faith requirement ) is that the kernel of their teaching is that things will be better when you are dead.

    Like I said to @The Nal, a good place to start is to read Mark's gospel with an open mind and decide for yourself. Christianity isn't all pie in the sky when you die, it's about coming into a real and living relationship with God himself. For me, and other Christians like me, that is exciting and joy giving now and not just after we die. And it's not blind faith, rather we come to know God because he has revealed himself.

    Even if you disagree with that, or don't find it convincing, hopefully it helps to understand where me and others like me are coming from.


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    #224
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Well I will admit that I relied on Google. Where's your figure coming from, did you count them?

    Nah, just having a bit of fun. Previous discussions talked about what makes a Christian a Christian where my take on it was once they called themselves a Christian that was good enough for me. Others on here would apply more stringent criteria and over on the A&A forum it comes on regularly from both sides of the argument that such and such a group of people aren't 'real' Christians for all sorts of reasons.


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    #225
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    smacl wrote: »
    Nah, just having a bit of fun. Previous discussions talked about what makes a Christian a Christian where my take on it was once they called themselves a Christian that was good enough for me. Others on here would apply more stringent criteria and over on the A&A forum it comes on regularly from both sides of the argument that such and such a group of people aren't 'real' Christians for all sorts of reasons.

    Not every burger that looks like a big mac is a Big Mac!


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    #226
    Anus Von Skidmark
    Registered Users Posts: 181 ✭✭Anus Von Skidmark


    JJayoo wrote: »
    Maybe Jesus was gonna have the demon pigs butchered get some tasty demon rashers

    I'd devour a big fat demon sausage now... yum!


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    #227
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Iliana Cold Mayonnaise wrote: »
    Not every burger that looks like a big mac is a Big Mac!

    Perhaps, but if I bought it at McDonalds and it said Big Mac on the wrapper, I'd take it in good faith that it was a big mac. Now what's actually inside that Big Mac is another thing entirely and could well make your stomach churn :pac:


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    #228
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    smacl wrote: »
    And Ganesha?

    Ganesh is a completely different God to the one that Muslims/Christians worship.


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    #229
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Wouldn't you imagine that whichever god is out there he/she/it would just make themselves visibly known( I mean clearly, not in some writings that are thousands of years old) everyone on the planet then understands what's required and we all live happily ever after!


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    #230
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,275 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Wouldn't you imagine that whichever god is out there he/she/it would just make themselves visibly known( I mean clearly, not in some writings that are thousands of years old) everyone on the planet then understands what's required and we all live happily ever after!
    What manifestation of God would satisfy this criterion? Serious question.


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    #231
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    What manifestation of God would satisfy this criterion? Serious question.


    Well I would imagine God would be able to speak pretty much from the heavens, visible to all , and say whatever needs to be said. I am deadly serious. If there is a god and he has a message then why would it not be clearly delivered and not open to misinterpretation. As things stand there are 4000+ religions out there not to mention those with no religious beliefs.


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    #232
    Effects
    Registered Users Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    If there is a god and he has a message then why would it not be clearly delivered and not open to misinterpretation.

    Our brains wouldn't be able to comprehend the reality of it.
    It's much better to work in ambiguities and faith without clear reality.


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    #233
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Effects wrote: »
    Our brains wouldn't be able to comprehend the reality of it.
    It's much better to work in ambiguities and faith without clear reality.

    By definition an omnipotent being would be able to present a message that was within our ability to grasp?


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    #234
    ChrisJ84
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ChrisJ84


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Well I would imagine God would be able to speak pretty much from the heavens, visible to all , and say whatever needs to be said. I am deadly serious. If there is a god and he has a message then why would it not be clearly delivered and not open to misinterpretation. As things stand there are 4000+ religions out there not to mention those with no religious beliefs.

    That is exactly what the bible tells us - the heavens declare the glory of God. In Romans, Paul points out that God's "eternal power and divine nature" can be seen by everyone in creation, and that on that basis we have no excuse for denying him. The bible is also clear that the fact that we do deny him is on us, not on God.

    Thankfully, God doesn't leave us in this mess that we've made for ourselves.


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    #235
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Wouldn't you imagine that whichever god is out there he/she/it would just make themselves visibly known( I mean clearly, not in some writings that are thousands of years old) everyone on the planet then understands what's required and we all live happily ever after!


    Jesus Christ walked this earth 2,000 years ago, recorded in history. People saw the signs that He did amongst them, and they still didn't believe in Him. (You can see this particularly in John chapters 5 - 10).

    God has made Himself known physically in Christ, that wasn't enough for many people. I often find that people who say that God needs to do X, Y and Z in order to believe in Him shift the goalposts whenever X, Y and Z are presented. That proves that it isn't a matter of these things, or a matter of intellect but a matter of the heart. It isn't that there isn't enough of an intellectual basis for Christianity, it is that you do not want to believe.


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    #236
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,166 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    The
    ChrisJ84 wrote: »
    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Well I would imagine God would be able to speak pretty much from the heavens, visible to all , and say whatever needs to be said. I am deadly serious. If there is a god and he has a message then why would it not be clearly delivered and not open to misinterpretation. As things stand there are 4000+ religions out there not to mention those with no religious beliefs.

    That is exactly what the bible tells us - the heavens declare the glory of God. In Romans, Paul points out that God's "eternal power and divine nature" can be seen by everyone in creation, and that on that basis we have no excuse for denying him. The bible is also clear that the fact that we do deny him is on us, not on God.

    Thankfully, God doesn't leave us in this mess that we've made for ourselves.
    Why are you guys so scared that you cannot even consider that God making himself obvious to present day mankind is a good idea. Most free thinking adults find it a bit far fetched that God would only have made himself known in riddles and parables for a very brief period 2000 years ago and only in a tiny patch of land in the middle east.


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    #237
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    The
    Why are you guys so scared that you cannot even consider that God making himself obvious to present day mankind is a good idea. Most free thinking adults find it a bit far fetched that God would only have made himself known in riddles and parables for a very brief period 2000 years ago and only in a tiny patch of land in the middle east.

    I'm not "scared" about any suggestion. I trust God, on the basis of what He has said, and what He has done in history, on that basis, and on the basis of what God has done in my life and in the lives of others I trust Him.

    You are entitled not to. I simply don't find it problematic that Jesus Christ isn't physically here, we have His Word and we have the Holy Spirit living in us.
    John 16:4-15 wrote:
    “I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
    “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

    God hasn't left us. We can pray to God with confidence because of what Jesus has done. God works in our lives through His Spirit to make us blameless before Him when He returns and to help us to grow in holiness.

    I'm hugely thankful to God for that. Jesus Christ speaks with such authority. I've not come across anyone who speaks like Him in this world. If I can be a fraction more like Him in this life I will be doing well.


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    #238
    NCS
    Registered Users Posts: 281 ✭✭NCS


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    The
    Why are you guys so scared that you cannot even consider that God making himself obvious to present day mankind is a good idea. Most free thinking adults find it a bit far fetched that God would only have made himself known in riddles and parables for a very brief period 2000 years ago and only in a tiny patch of land in the middle east.

    In one way it's a question of competing absurdities. Why would a God wanting Himself to be known go about it in such a suspiciously human way, constrained both temporally and geographically and for a less scientifically aware audience? A suspiciously... invisible God who sometimes answers prayers, according to His adherents, but at other times doesn't appear to - which can be put down to lack of faith or part of some bigger plan by way of suspiciously convenient explanation. Outside of faith in that God, measured by our own contemporary experience, this is absurdity.

    On the other hand, we can mostly agree that we are all here in existence. And without a Creator, we are left with an explanation for that existence many times more unlikely than shaking a big box of Lego long enough to discover the Taj Mahal nestling inside. Outside of faith in theories which cannot be verified, at best only surmised, then as measured by our own contemporary experience, this also is absurdity.

    Whichever way you look at it, life is far-fetched. That, in itself, is no reason to discard the theory that God might just have chosen that place and that time.


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    #239
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    NCS wrote: »
    Whichever way you look at it, life is far-fetched. That, in itself, is no reason to discard the theory that God might just have chosen that place and that time.

    But on that basis, any creation story, now matter how absurd, is equally valid. At this point in time, most people go with the least absurd version of events we currently have at our disposal which involves the big bang theory and evolution, strange as that may seem. An almighty deity that in his wisdom gave us carbon dating would seem rather keen to deny his own existence.


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    #240
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    smacl wrote: »
    By definition an omnipotent being would be able to present a message that was within our ability to grasp?

    He already did that and when He came among we didn't believe Him despite the miracles and then crucified Him. Just like ancient Israel. Delivered from the Egyptians, red sea parted, thunder and lightening and a voice from the top of the mountain and they stopped their ears, said no more and didn't believe in the God that delivered them.

    Do you really think it would be any different now?


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    #241
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,735 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Iliana Cold Mayonnaise wrote: »
    He already did that and when He came among we didn't believe Him despite the miracles and then crucified Him. Just like ancient Israel. Delivered from the Egyptians, red sea parted, thunder and lightening and a voice from the top of the mountain and they stopped their ears, said no more and didn't believe in the God that delivered them.

    Yet none of these miracles is verifiable or believed as accurate from a historical perspective and most other major religions have similar yet conflicting tales of miracle.
    Do you really think it would be any different now?

    If someone claiming to be an agent of God was able to part the Red Sea simply by waving his hands around, I for one would be reconsidering my position. That said, I'm not holding my breath in anticipation :)


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