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Why did Jesus allow demons to enter a herd of pigs?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭NCS


    smacl wrote: »
    But on that basis, any creation story, now matter how absurd, is equally valid. At this point in time, most people go with the least absurd version of events we currently have at our disposal which involves the big bang theory and evolution, strange as that may seem. An almighty deity that in his wisdom gave us carbon dating would seem rather keen to deny his own existence.

    If absurdity is the only criterion for judgement then yes, every creation myth or scientific theory is equally valid for consideration - and then you are at the level of picking between them to see what makes the most sense. Knowing what I know about science and how the observed world works, I cannot honestly say that constantly rolling sixes for a thousand million years in favour of positive evolution while simultaneously avoiding global extinction events is any less absurd than believing in a Creator who orchestrated and documented a coherent plan lasting from thousands of years before arriving in Galilee to the present day.

    That said, believing in a Creator does not preclude accepting carbon dating as a means to calculate the age of the Earth (even though the method itself is not without assumptions). Even in a literal reading, the Bible does not give enough detail to unequivocally state an age of 6,000 years (eg. "The earth became without form" says nothing about what it may have been before). Plenty of significant scientific advancers retained and were often inspired by their religious faith, few I think found it an impedance.

    And if the argument goes that believing in the existence of God belongs to a more credulous time, writings such as Psalm 14 ("The fool has said in his heart: "There is no God.") written around 539 BC would seem to suggest the debate has been around for a very long time.

    So working on the theory that there is a God, the question then is why He has a strategy of limited intervention. Old and New Testament heroes who experienced miracles still suffered very human setbacks - Jacob went blind, Paul suffered with an unspecified thorn in his flesh and despite having previously raised the dead, apparently could do nothing beyond advising a glass of wine for Timothy's stomach trouble. If the Bible really had been compiled and edited to create a fictitious narrative, these accounts would seem to undermine the cause.

    Seen in context, however, they make perfect sense - the core Biblical currency is faith whatever one's personal circumstances because there is a bigger plan in motion. The miracles that Paul oversaw were critically important at that time to validate a Gospel which was just beginning to acquire its own scriptures and structure. By the time of his letter to Timothy, supernatural validation was no longer so important as the message was widespread and Messianic teachings could be compared with details of Jesus' ministry. Received personally, the Holy Spirit was much more effective than the witness of miracles which had previously reinforced faith yet had failed to prevent the Israelites from going astray (eg. the Golden Calf, the Red Sea etc).

    That's not to say that interventions no longer happen, just that there is no requirement for them to be public on the same scale as Biblical demonstrations because there is enough validation of the Gospel from other sources. Yes, I am aware of how suspiciously convenient this sounds :) But then, to quote Luke 16: "If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    smacl wrote: »
    Yet none of these miracles is verifiable or believed as accurate from a historical perspective and most other major religions have similar yet conflicting tales of miracle.



    If someone claiming to be an agent of God was able to part the Red Sea simply by waving his hands around, I for one would be reconsidering my position. That said, I'm not holding my breath in anticipation :)

    Not believed by who? By you? I believe them as do many others.

    Going on your word is like asking a blind man what colour he sees when looking at a red light.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,155 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Not believed by who? By you? I believe them as do many others.

    Going on your word is like asking a blind man what colour he sees when looking at a red light.


    I don't doubt your belief and the belief of others on this topic but I get a little scared that ye don't seem to be willing to address the huge elephant in the room and that is the ever dwindling numbers attending church and the complete absence of priests and nuns joining up. That indicates one thing to me and it is that people find it hard to believe and they are not being helped by the clergy who after all if nothing else are paid to do a job. I'm no spring chicken but I can honestly say that I don't ever recall meeting a priest who in any way sounded like he was convinced about the afterlife or anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭NCS


    ... I don't ever recall meeting a priest who in any way sounded like he was convinced about the afterlife or anything.

    Well, eh, that's your observed dwindling attendance explained then. Jesus never promised Christian triumphalism until His return, in fact he indicated the greater number would not listen in keeping with Israel's history in the Old Testament. Headcounts are misleading, what matters is commitment and faithfulness. As the mainstream churches have conceded their moral authority in an effort to become more accepted by the world, so they concede any uniqueness to their message and indeed any reason or impetus for non believers or agnostics to engage with them.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Not believed by who? By you? I believe them as do many others.

    Going on your word is like asking a blind man what colour he sees when looking at a red light.

    My post clearly stated "none of these miracles is verifiable or believed as accurate from a historical perspective". Perhaps you could find point out a reputable history book that lists biblical miracles as fact. Out of interest do you believe that all of humankind are directly descended from Adam and Eve, or that Noah managed to squeeze a mating pair of every land creature onto a large wooden boat and that every land creature alive today are direct descendents of animals from the ark? If not, why not?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,546 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Its called conditioning. People don't know any better, simple as that really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ChrisJ84


    The Nal wrote: »
    Its called conditioning. People don't know any better, simple as that really.

    Which doesn't apply to enlightened types like yourself I suppose :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭NCS


    The Nal wrote: »
    Its called conditioning. People don't know any better, simple as that really.

    Well no, definitely not always. There's certainly a strong element of family or cultural pressure to adhere to a religion in some contemporary societies as well as in history. However, conditioning does not explain those nominal adherents who experience personal renewal which challenges that very culture, such as Luther against Catholicism and John Wesley within Anglicanism. It also has very little answer for people who change religions or convert from atheism without ever experiencing any cultural 'conditioning'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,546 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    ChrisJ84 wrote: »
    Which doesn't apply to enlightened types like yourself I suppose :rolleyes:

    It did until I was about 11 or 12.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,161 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The Nal wrote: »
    Its called conditioning. People don't know any better, simple as that really.
    ChrisJ84 wrote: »
    Which doesn't apply to enlightened types like yourself I suppose :rolleyes:
    The Nal wrote: »
    It did until I was about 11 or 12.
    You don't grow out of conditioning - that's kind of the point. The fairly well-observed phenomenon of people changing their religious position (or other positions) in adolescence is not evidence that they are no longer susceptible to being shaped by social patterns and social structures; just that they are being influenced by different patterns and structures - your parents and extended family are relatively less of an influence on you; your peers and external role models relatively more so.

    There is no a priori reason to think that your present position on religious matters is any less the product of conditioning than positions you held in the past were. The belief that it is is adopted simply because it is comforting and affirming.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    I don't doubt your belief and the belief of others on this topic but I get a little scared that ye don't seem to be willing to address the huge elephant in the room and that is the ever dwindling numbers attending church and the complete absence of priests and nuns joining up. That indicates one thing to me and it is that people find it hard to believe and they are not being helped by the clergy who after all if nothing else are paid to do a job. I'm no spring chicken but I can honestly say that I don't ever recall meeting a priest who in any way sounded like he was convinced about the afterlife or anything.

    The Church is s lot bigger that the RC denomination.
    Pentecostal Churches are the fastest growing worldwide.

    This is just Ireland.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/a-religious-revolution-is-taking-place-in-ireland-1.3092198?mode=amp


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    You don't grow out of conditioning - that's kind of the point.

    I wouldn't be so sure about that, P. AFAIK most conditioning needs to be reinforced at regular intervals or it is prone to fade over time. If you think about it, conditioning essentially amounts to rote learning with large numbers of repetitions over an extended period of time, sometimes coupled with punishment for mistakes and reward for consistently getting it right. e.g, most people of a certain generation were taught most subjects this way in school, but how many of them could re-sit their leaving cert and hope to pass?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    The Church is s lot bigger that the RC denomination.
    Pentecostal Churches are the fastest growing worldwide.

    This is just Ireland.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/a-religious-revolution-is-taking-place-in-ireland-1.3092198?mode=amp

    Article written by Nick Park, an executive director of Evangelical Alliance Ireland, not that it is a bad article but it is from someone actively promoting evangelicalism. The comments below the article are rather entertaining.

    Evangelicalism currently represents about 1.5% of the population in this country, so very much a minority concern.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,137 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    smacl wrote: »
    The comments below the article are rather entertaining.


    I especially liked this one :)
    "such churches, having never been part of the political or cultural power structures in the State, are generally unaffected by the scandals that have disillusioned so many."

    Indeed not: their speciality tends rather to be the pastor absconding with the cash box under one arm and his secretary under the other, of which I could relate several juicy examples. But give them any secular power, such as they are now seeking in countries like Brazil, and they'd soon be as corrupt as any of the established churches: probably with brass knobs on given the generally poor backgrounds and low educational levels of their leaders. In the United States "TV evangelist" and "fraudster" are now virtually interchangeable terms. One such rejoices in the name of the Rev. Chuck Swindell, which is a name that even Graham Linehan would have hesitated to invent.


    Funny how the people who say things like "X is the fastest growing" something-or-other never mention the obstinately small "market share" of X (same as the market leader Y never mentions how its share is in long-term decline with no idea how to reverse it...)

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭NCS


    smacl wrote: »
    Article written by Nick Park, an executive director of Evangelical Alliance Ireland, not that it is a bad article but it is from someone actively promoting evangelicalism. The comments below the article are rather entertaining.

    Evangelicalism currently represents about 1.5% of the population in this country, so very much a minority concern.

    The believing Church will always be a minority concern, Jesus warned as much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,155 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    NCS wrote: »
    The believing Church will always be a minority concern, Jesus warned as much.


    Well Mohammad certainly seems to have cornered the market.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    NCS wrote: »
    The believing Church will always be a minority concern, Jesus warned as much.

    By that are you labelling all other Christian churches as non-believers?


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭NCS


    smacl wrote: »
    By that are you labelling all other Christian churches as non-believers?

    Far from it. There is, however, a significant distinction between the Biblical fellowship of believers referred to as 'the Church' and the contemporary use of the title 'Church' to collectively describe denominations differing by theological understanding and practice. Jesus made it very clear that the price of belief would be high and that only a minority would be successful. He also wasn't particularly inclusive of all scriptural interpretations, having a major beef with both the Pharisees and Sadducees who were the legalists and liberals of the day as well as more gently correcting a Samaritan with: "You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews." This continues into the Epistles which spend a great deal of time correcting theology and practice within the new churches.

    My opinion is that the body of believers, the true Biblical Church, spans most (if not all) Christian denominations but the externals of baptism, membership, attendance and other outward practice are no guarantee of personal relationship with God nor salvation. So relative or absolute headcounts can be very misleading, particularly where religion and culture are strongly linked as, for example, in the case of Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭NCS


    Well Mohammad certainly seems to have cornered the market.

    Far into the realm of speculation now but per the Bible, humanity's endgame is a theocracy in which decapitation is used as a means of execution for non (or differing) belief.That does sound rather familiar.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    NCS wrote: »
    Far from it. There is, however, a significant distinction between the Biblical fellowship of believers referred to as 'the Church' and the contemporary use of the title 'Church' to collectively describe denominations differing by theological understanding and practice. Jesus made it very clear that the price of belief would be high and that only a minority would be successful. He also wasn't particularly inclusive of all scriptural interpretations, having a major beef with both the Pharisees and Sadducees who were the legalists and liberals of the day as well as more gently correcting a Samaritan with: "You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews." This continues into the Epistles which spend a great deal of time correcting theology and practice within the new churches.

    My opinion is that the body of believers, the true Biblical Church, spans most (if not all) Christian denominations but the externals of baptism, membership, attendance and other outward practice are no guarantee of personal relationship with God nor salvation. So relative or absolute headcounts can be very misleading, particularly where religion and culture are strongly linked as, for example, in the case of Ireland.

    Perfectly valid view of what it means to be Christian but not uniquely so in my opinion, even though other views might be contradictory.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    smacl wrote: »
    Article written by Nick Park, an executive director of Evangelical Alliance Ireland, not that it is a bad article but it is from someone actively promoting evangelicalism. The comments below the article are rather entertaining.

    Evangelicalism currently represents about 1.5% of the population in this country, so very much a minority concern.

    When you have a thousand people meeting together on a Sunday morning it's hardly a minority concern.

    I'd be challenged to find a Catholic church with that many in a single mass.

    An secular piece for you.

    https://people.howstuffworks.com/pentecostal.htm


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