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Why did Jesus allow demons to enter a herd of pigs?
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But by your own definition, are you saying there is more than one God?
Or just that your God must be the only one true god because you happen to believe so? Surely just because you believe something doesn't make it correct or true.
Of course not, Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe that there is one God. Our ideas of who that God is / what he is like are so different that they cannot be reconciled.
I believe that God has uniquely revealed himself in Jesus Christ, and that Jesus is the only way for us to relate to God, truly know God, or be known by him. That is either true or it isn't, the fact that believe in it is neither here nor there.Prestonites wrote: »If you read your word you will see it discussed that all religions worship the one God. They consider the same almighty and omnipresent God, they may have different perceptions or views on Jesus I.E Islam- Holy trinity
But to me as a Christian, I see the same Christ that Catholics see or muslims see. Our forms of worship may be different but end game is the same.
Not quite. All religions are looking for or striving after God, but it is only through faith in Jesus that we find him. It really does matter what we believe about Jesus, and we simply cannot get away from the specific and exclusive claims that the bible makes. The bible claims very clearly that faith in Jesus Christ as saviour and lord is the only way to God and that there is no other way to him.
I am saying religions have perceptions of Jesus some as prophet, some as part of the trinity, some as the son of God solely.0 -
Of course not, Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe that there is one God. However, our ideas of who that God is / what he is like are so different that they cannot be reconciled.
Do they need to be reconciled? God will be the same at the end of the day, when you die. It's arrogant to presume your God is the only correct one, based mainly on where you were born.I believe that God has uniquely revealed himself in Jesus Christ, and that Jesus is the only way for us to relate to God, truly know God, or be known by him. That is either true or it isn't, the fact that I believe in it is neither here nor there.
That's fine, if that's what you choose to believe. But Jesus can't be the only way to relate to God. It's a very ignorant way to look at faith.0 -
That's fine, if that's what you choose to believe. But Jesus can't be the only way to relate to God. It's a very ignorant way to look at faith.
John 14:6
Jesus himself said........
"I am the way and the truth, and the life, no one can come to the father except through me"
These are the direct words of God, Theyre indisputable. Now if you are choosing not to believe in what Jesus is saying, thats your choice, God gave us all free will. But theres no denying that Jesus directly and unambiguously informed the world that the only way to come to God was through him.0 -
John 14:6
Jesus himself said........
"I am the way and the truth, and the life, no one can come to the father except through me"
These are the direct words of God, Theyre indisputable. Now if you are choosing not to believe in what Jesus is saying, thats your choice, God gave us all free will. But theres no denying that Jesus directly and unambiguously informed the world that the only way to come to God was through him.
They aren't direct words from God though, are they? They are written down by someone else. They weren't even written down in English. Of course they can be disputed.
And do you really think that God will forsake the majority of the people in the world, purely because they don't worship Christ?0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »World religions is the subforum which hosts threads on Islam.
Looks dead to me, surely Islam deserves its own forum instead of sub?0 -
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ScottCapper wrote: »Looks dead to me, surely Islam deserves its own forum instead of sub?
Nah, there's not enough interest.0 -
They aren't direct words from God though, are they? They are written down by someone else. They weren't even written down in English. Of course they can be disputed.
And do you really think that God will forsake the majority of the people in the world, purely because they don't worship Christ?
No it cant. The word of God is eternal and indisputable. If you want to waste your time disputing the word of God then this again is your choice. But instead of engaging in debates about the scriptures, why not actually read them for yourself. Read them, meditate on them, then read them again.0 -
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Peregrinus wrote: »It's not the words of scripture that I call extreme, but the interpretation you place on them.
We need to play on the same pitch. I don't particularly mind that you regard my position as being extreme. I would argue that it doesn't significantly differ from the orthodox Christian gospel espoused by Jesus Himself and held throughout the ages by faithful Christians.
If you think my position deviates from that let's open the Scriptures and let's see why that is the case. Simply asserting this however doesn't progress the discussion very much.Peregrinus wrote: »The logic of your position is that Jews who know God in exactly the same way that their forefathers did, who believe exactly what their forefathers believed, who worship in exactly the same way as their forefathers worshipped, and who are faithful to the covenant that their forefathers made with that God, are nevertheless worshipping a different and false God.
The logic of my position is that the Jewish people post-Christ have rejected God as He has revealed Himself in history. That marks them as different from the patriarchs.
In the same way Islam deviates from what God has revealed about Himself in respect to the centrality of God's Son and His saving death for us.
Neither of which are insignificant matters from a Scriptural standpoint. In so far as both have deviated significantly from what God has revealed about Himself and His identity they cannot be said to be worshipping the same God.Peregrinus wrote: »Indeed, you also imply that, in so far as Christians have different understandings of the way God has revealed himself in Christ, all but one of them - and quite possibly all of them - must also be worshipping different, false Gods.
There are primary and secondary matters of disagreement. Primary matters are where Scripture has been clear, secondary and even tertiary matters are a matter of opinion. For example the virgin birth, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the divinity of Jesus, the necessity of His role in salvation, the Trinity, the Lordship of Christ, The Holy Spirit and His work in believers are all primary issues.
All orthodox Christian confessions hold these things together.Peregrinus wrote: »I think your error is here:
The identity of the God we worship depends on what He has revealed to us about Himself. That isn't a minor detail.
Funnily enough, I think those lines are some of the most essential things I needed to stress in my post. I think that the Son of God is an essential matter of belief and is an essential characteristic of God as He has revealed Himself.Peregrinus wrote: »In mainstream Christian (and Muslim, and Jewish) thinking, God is unchanging. His identity is what it is. It doesn't "depend" on anything (how can any aspect of God be dependent?) and it certainly doesn't depend on anything which varies over the course of human history, like revelation. God's identity is wholly unaffected by the progress of revelation.
I'm not saying that God is chained. What I am saying is that Scripture is the record of how God has revealed Himself to us. As He has spoken in His Word, we learn of what He is like.
I don't agree that God's identity is "wholly unaffected" by what He has said in the same way as I don't think your position on this subject is "wholly unaffected" by what you have posted. What you have posted conveys your understanding, what God has spoken and what God has revealed to His people in His Word conveys what He is like and who He is to us. That's why we have the Scriptures to begin with.Peregrinus wrote: »What is affected by revelation is our understanding of God. But of course our understanding of God is also affected by our response to revelation (and by our limited capacity to understand the transcendant). It's clear at multiple points in the gospels that the disciples struggled with what what was revealed to them in Jesus Christ, and frequently failed to grasp it. But at no point is there any suggestion, either from Jesus himself or in anything any of the evangelists wrote, that this meant the disciples were worshipping a false god. And the same is true of the church as a beleving community; they spent centuries wrestling with the revelation of Jesus Christ, slowly coming to terms with it. Indeed, we're still at it.
I believe that words have significance and meaning in and of themselves in an objective way. I don't believe that all of God's words are subjective to us.
As for the disciples increasing in understanding I would happily admit that the disciples came to faith through the course of their time with Jesus. That however doesn't change who God is. God's identity is "wholly unaffected" by our understanding.Peregrinus wrote: »None of this changes the identity or reality of God; how could it? And everyone who worships the God who reveals himself in this way is worshipping the same God, regardless of the historical point which revelation has reached or of the completeness or correctness of their understanding of that revelation.
Here's the crux of the issue. Jews post-Christ, and Muslims do not worship the God who has revealed Himself to us in this way in Christ. That's precisely why I'm saying I don't believe that Jewish people who reject Jesus as the Christ, and Muslims who deny what He has said about Himself worship the same God as I do.
The Son of God is an essential part of who God is in His triune nature. It isn't a small or an insignificant matter, and I think the Scriptures are pretty clear on that.0 -
You see that's where you are wrong. You can dispute anything.
And you let yourself down by being so doggedly closed minded.
I would argue that it is you who is being closed minded. I mentioned in my previous point about reading the scriptures and being informed about the word of God and I get the impression from your own posts that you are not actually actively reading the bible and studying the word of God. If Im wrong about this and you are regularly studying and mediating on the bible, then I apologise. But if you're not then your commenting on and trying to dispute something you have no direct experience of, which is pretty closed minded. The bible is a living breathing work, its alive and when you read it(with an open heart and mind) it becomes alive in you. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2:14:
"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised"
and in Ezekiel 12:2
"Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house"
You can harden your own heart and mind and waste your time with arguments or you can read the scriptures and uncover the message thats been hidden in plain sight for thousands of years, its up to you.0 -
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I would browse the bible, but don't spend a huge amount of time on it.
I have plenty of experience of the bible. But it also runs contrary to a lot of what actually happens in the world.
I'd rather spend my time questioning what's going on all around us than just following a two thousand year old book. Which is riddled with a lot of crazy stuff anyway. Sure, it's got some good stuff in it, but then people like you take it and use it to judge others as not being as good as you.
Again, you can't write off the souls of the majority of people here on earth based simply on the face they don't follow the ways of Jesus.
God, and Jesus wouldn't allow it. Jesus was a progressive dude, you need to give him more credit than you are.0 -
I would browse the bible, but don't spend a huge amount of time on it.
I have plenty of experience of the bible. But it also runs contrary to a lot of what actually happens in the world.
I'd rather spend my time questioning what's going on all around us than just following a two thousand year old book. Which is riddled with a lot of crazy stuff anyway. Sure, it's got some good stuff in it, but then people like you take it and use it to judge others as not being as good as you.
Thats the point though. In the Bible we're told to "not be conformed to this world". Its not about people being "as good as me" or to judge. People who do that are "Religious" and are pharisees. And it was religious people who killed Jesus. It can be said that Jesus was the most anti religious person who ever lived. Im not concerned about winning an argument with you and being right, Im more concerned about you as a person. I used to think the bible was full of crazy stuff too........but then I actually sat down and read it, every day, sometimes for hours at a time. And then Id think about what I read, it was constantly on my mind. The more I read of it the more I actually understood what was really going on, the hidden messages as such. The old testament to someone who just browses it, seems insane. Theres people being knocked off left right and centre, lads having their arms lobbed off for eating ice cream on a wednesday when it expressly says Ice cream can only be eaten on tuesdays between the hours of 2 - 3 pm. God is threatening to wipe out the Israelites one minute then saying he'll forgive and love them the next.........it all seems extremely violent and insane. But to really delve into it and allow it to enter your consciousness, this produces an understanding thats not there at first. And its not an intellectual thing, its spiritual understanding at a level that just cant be obtained otherwise.
All Im asking you to do is to read the scriptures, like really study them, with an open mind and an open heart. If you read the Gospel of John(NLT version is very easy to understand)then meditate on what you've read then I guarantee it will answer a lot of the things youre questioning.0 -
As a general rule, each religion considers the other religions to be wrong.
The three main Abrahamic religions are no exception, each considering the other to be heretical.
Whether they all worship the same god is then a superficial or even a moot point. If you believe there is only one god, then you believe that the others are worshiping your god, but in the wrong way.
Even if you believed in a whole pantheon of gods, you could still allow yourself to believe that their one god was actually one of yours.
If you believe in a 3 part god, as Christians essentially do (whether they realise it or not) then like peregrinus, you can allow yourself to believe that the Muslim and/or Jewish one god is actually one part of yours.
Or, from the perspective of Jews and Muslims, only one out of 3 parts of the Christian trinity is the true god.
All that is very narcissistic though. Its like seeing some random guy on the street wearing the same shoes as you, and saying "he is copying my outfit, but he got some of it wrong". No, the truth is, he's not interested in you or your outfit. He just happens to have the same shoes, because he visited the same shoe shop.
In religion, its far more honest to just say "I'm right and they are wrong, therefore their god is a false god"
Maybe its not as pc, but its more honest.0 -
Prestonites wrote: »If you read your word you will see it discussed that all religions worship the one God. They consider the same almighty and omnipresent God, they may have different perceptions or views on Jesus I.E Islam- Holy trinity
But to me as a Christian, I see the same Christ that Catholics see or muslims see. Our forms of worship may be different but end game is the same.
If Christians and Muslims worship the same God( they don't) then Jesus saying He was the only way to God was and is a lie.(it's not)0 -
Do Christians and Jews worship the same God, Tat?Iliana Cold Mayonnaise wrote: »If Christians and Muslims worship the same God( they don't) then Jesus saying He was the only way to God was and is a lie.(it's not)0 -
The Jewish version of Yahweh excludes Jesus.
Its a matter of semantics whether you call that "the same" god or not.
Same name, but different constituent parts.0 -
You see that's where you are wrong. You can dispute anything.
And you let yourself down by being so doggedly closed minded.
Absolutely agree. You can, and should, dispute these things. After all there are something like 2.1 Billion Christians of which there are hundreds upon hundreds of branches and sub divisions not to mention Billions of Muslims,Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jews! Relying on a book that was written thousands of years ago and rewritten and translated over and over without questioning it or thinking that Fr Tom on the alter who was press ganged into the church as a youngster is going to enlighten you is being just plain childish. If the clergy (of all religions)spoke out in plain English instead of waffling in riddles they might at least stop the hemoraging of church goers.0 -
realdanbreen wrote: »Absolutely agree. You can, and should, dispute these things. After all there are something like 2.1 Billion Christians of which there are hundreds upon hundreds of branches and sub divisions not to mention Billions of Muslims,Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jews! Relying on a book that was written thousands of years ago and rewritten and translated over and over without questioning it or thinking that Fr Tom on the alter who was press ganged into the church as a youngster is going to enlighten you is being just plain childish. If the clergy (of all religions)spoke out in plain English instead of waffling in riddles they might at least stop the hemoraging of church goers.
I think you might be confusing debating / asking questions with being perpetually uncertain. Sounds to me like @santana75 has looked at the evidence and concluded that the claims of Christianity are, in fact, true. That's not being closed minded, it's just believing in something.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »Do Christians and Jews worship the same God, Tat?
They differ on their expectation of the Messiah.they have the same root.
Islam seeks to destroy both.0 -
You're missing the whole point. The "evidence " as you call it is where the problem begins!realdanbreen wrote: »Absolutely agree. You can, and should, dispute these things. After all there are something like 2.1 Billion Christians of which there are hundreds upon hundreds of branches and sub divisions not to mention Billions of Muslims,Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jews! Relying on a book that was written thousands of years ago and rewritten and translated over and over without questioning it or thinking that Fr Tom on the alter who was press ganged into the church as a youngster is going to enlighten you is being just plain childish. If the clergy (of all religions)spoke out in plain English instead of waffling in riddles they might at least stop the hemoraging of church goers.
I think you might be confusing debating / asking questions with being perpetually uncertain. Sounds to me like @santana75 has looked at the evidence and concluded that the claims of Christianity are, in fact, true. That's not being closed minded, it's just believing in something.0 -
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realdanbreen wrote: »Absolutely agree. You can, and should, dispute these things. After all there are something like 2.1 Billion Christians of which there are hundreds upon hundreds of branches and sub divisions not to mention Billions of Muslims,Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jews! Relying on a book that was written thousands of years ago and rewritten and translated over and over without questioning it or thinking that Fr Tom on the alter who was press ganged into the church as a youngster is going to enlighten you is being just plain childish. If the clergy (of all religions)spoke out in plain English instead of waffling in riddles they might at least stop the hemoraging of church goers.
Mod:
This is the Christianity forum. You've made your point and are beginning to soapbox. Please stop.
Also,
For the purposes of this forum Christianity is not waffle.0 -
realdanbreen wrote: »Absolutely agree. You can, and should, dispute these things. After all there are something like 2.1 Billion Christians of which there are hundreds upon hundreds of branches and sub divisions not to mention Billions of Muslims,Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jews! Relying on a book that was written thousands of years ago and rewritten and translated over and over without questioning it or thinking that Fr Tom on the alter who was press ganged into the church as a youngster is going to enlighten you is being just plain childish. If the clergy (of all religions)spoke out in plain English instead of waffling in riddles they might at least stop the hemoraging of church goers.
Funnily enough the Bible hasn't been "rewritten" nor is there any evidence to suggest such. Are there multiple translations? Sure, but that is a strength. That means that not only can I check the thousands of Greek manuscripts, I can also check several translations of said manuscripts throughout history and see that they cohere.
I rely on the Scriptures because of the testimony of the eyewitnesses about Jesus. I rely on the Scriptures because they have been proven to be textually authentic and reliable, and because I'm convinced of the case that the eyewitnesses present.
Does that make me more closed minded than the atheist or the sceptic who thinks they are all wrong? No. Probably less closed minded to be honest.
You seem to believe that Christians believe what they do blindly without thinking about it. Can I suggest that this isn't really true?
I would say that dismissing the Bible without proper investigation is childish.0 -
realdanbreen wrote: »You're missing the whole point. The "evidence " as you call it is where the problem begins!
Saying that the evidence is invalid / that you don’t find it convincing is not the same as there being no evidence. Christianity is not blind faith, in the absence of or in contradiction to any available evidence. On the contrary, it is a highly developed and nuanced worldview which we claim is the best and most consistent way to understand reality, and the only way for us to be reconciled with God himself. Trying to dismiss it as if it's equivalent to believing in unicorns is silly, and definitely isn’t going to lead to a useful or interesting conversation.0 -
If "they have the same root" means they worship the same God, then it's very hard not to extend that to include Muslims as well, since they also have that root.Iliana Cold Mayonnaise wrote: »They differ on their expectation of the Messiah.they have the same root.
Whatever their other differences, Jews and Muslims agree on at leaast one thing; that they worship the same God. It seems ... unfairly pejorative, then, to claim that Islam seeks to destroy the God of Judaism. Muslims openly worship the God of Judaism.Iliana Cold Mayonnaise wrote: »Islam seeks to destroy both.0 -
theological wrote: »
You seem to believe that Christians believe what they do blindly without thinking about it. Can I suggest that this isn't really true?
But isn't that the whole point? Young -and not so young-people nowadays do think about it and don't go along with a blind faith as we did in the past. Is that not one of the reasons why church attendance is tumbling and it's mostly grey heads you will find in the church. I was pulled by the mod in an earlier post for using the word 'waffling' but I really feel strongly that if our clerics want to hammer home the message and belief in god they need to communicate that message in plain English and be open to questioning.0 -
realdanbreen wrote: »But isn't that the whole point? Young -and not so young-people nowadays do think about it and don't go along with a blind faith as we did in the past. Is that not one of the reasons why church attendance is tumbling and it's mostly grey heads you will find in the church. I was pulled by the mod in an earlier post for using the word 'waffling' but I really feel strongly that if our clerics want to hammer home the message and belief in god they need to communicate that message in plain English and be open to questioning.
What age do you think I am? Do you know?
The talk of "our clerics" also isn't particularly helpful. Many of the people on this thread are not Roman Catholics.0 -
theological wrote: »What age do you think I am? Do you know?
The talk of "our clerics" also isn't particularly helpful. Many of the people on this thread are not Roman Catholics.
Well up until the above post I had figured you were pretty mature.
BY clerics I mean religious leaders across the Christian board. Anyway do you want to address the real point in the post?0 -
That's not what Tatranska said though.Peregrinus wrote: »Whatever their other differences, Jews and Muslims agree on at leaast one thing; that they worship the same God. It seems ... unfairly pejorative, then, to claim that Islam seeks to destroy the God of Judaism. Muslims openly worship the God of Judaism.
Islam seeks to destroy Judaism and Christanity, not the gods of those religions. Muslims do not believe that any other deities exist, other than Allah, so why would they try to destroy something that does not exist?
Do you accept the divinity of Jesus Christ, Peregrinus?
Surely you realise that Jews and Muslims do not.0 -
realdanbreen wrote: »But isn't that the whole point? Young -and not so young-people nowadays do think about it and don't go along with a blind faith as we did in the past. Is that not one of the reasons why church attendance is tumbling and it's mostly grey heads you will find in the church. I was pulled by the mod in an earlier post for using the word 'waffling' but I really feel strongly that if our clerics want to hammer home the message and belief in god they need to communicate that message in plain English and be open to questioning.
Hebrews 4 -12
For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires
The word of God is alive and powerful. This is the point, more than anything else. If you want to investigate whats in the Bible you have to read it for yourself, first hand. Study it and be open to its message otherwise you wont have a clue what its all about. To me and others who accept God's word, its all "Plain English" but to anyone whos not open to the word of God and is more interested in arguments, then they wont have a barneys what any of it means. Jesus said that he was thankful to God for hiding the meaning of these things from people who consider themselves "Intelligent" and for revealing his message to the childlike.0 -
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Firstly, Islam doesn't seek to destroy Judaism or Christianity. Christianity is founded on a missionary impluse which seeks to convert the world (thereby "destroying" all other religions, if you want to put it in those terms) but Islam does not.That's not what Tatranska said though.
Islam seeks to destroy Judaism and Christanity, not the gods of those religions. Muslims do not believe that any other deities exist, other than Allah, so why would they try to destroy something that does not exist?
Secondly, while Muslims do believe that there is only one God, they also consider that Jews and Christians worship that God. They do not think that Judaism and Christianity worship a God that does not exist (though they do think that Christians in particular have some pretty funny ideas about the God that does exist).
Yes.Do you accept the divinity of Jesus Christ, Peregrinus?
Yes, I do realise that. That doesn't mean that God they worship is a different God, though; just that they have different ideas about him.Surely you realise that Jews and Muslims do not.0
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