Science vs religion

one world order · 30-08-2019 11:44pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Is it sciences job to disprove gods before gods provide evidence of themselves. Until then is it fair to consider it anything more than fantasy? By failing to disprove gods, they’re in the same category as everything else that can’t be tested; fairies, goblins, unicorns etc. Now if here were testable evidence of gods and the evidence failed to be disproved, then you’d be on to something.

But that’s not how the burden of proof works. If you say there are gods then it’s on you to provide sufficient evidence. I’m sure you know that’s how it works.

It has already been proven Jesus Christ existed, will you choose to reject that as well? If you look at the bible, it had 40 different authors between the Old and New Testament and it all points towards Christ. It has a chapter on the book of revelations and unfortunately it appears to be accurate when you look at the direction the world is heading in today. There is so much evidence all around you that you choose to reject, instead waiting for some scientist to tell you that God has existed all along, which will be too late for your soul.

MonkieSocks · 30-08-2019 11:49pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Alternate universes have been discovered?

First I heard.

You had to be there... man............it was kinda like.............ya know.................

El_Duderino 09 · 30-08-2019 11:55pm

one world order wrote: »

It has already been proven Jesus Christ existed, will you choose to reject that as well? If you look at the bible, it had 40 different authors between the Old and New Testament and it all points towards Christ. It has a chapter on the book of revelations and unfortunately it appears to be accurate when you look at the direction the world is heading in today. There is so much evidence all around you that you choose to reject, instead waiting for some scientist to tell you that God has existed all along, which will be too late for your soul.

Jesus existence has been proven now has it? That’s news to me.

So the boom about Jesus, points towards Jesus? That’s as relevant to the conversation as the fact that the book about Muhammad and allah, points towards Muhammad and allah. And the book about the lord of the rings points to Frodo.

I’ll just wait for the evidence and see where it leads. No evidence, no need to pretend there are gods. It’s a simple system.

uck51js9zml2yt · 31-08-2019 1:28am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Why bother going to a pop science forum to discuss gods? The burden of proof is on anyone who claims gods exist. They don’t have to meet that burden in the religious forums but surely they understand that they will need to have some good evidence in a science forum.

Shoehorning gods onto things we don’t understand is as old as things we don’t understand. Not understanding things isn’t evidence for gods, though some people mistake it for evidence.

So what's your alternative?

Where's your proof?

El_Duderino 09 · 31-08-2019 6:54am

Ariana Squeaking Supper wrote: »

So what's your alternative?

Where's your proof?

What’s my alternative to what? My alternative to making up explanations for things I don’t understand is to try to find out the actual explanations.

I don’t make the claim that god/gods exist so I don’t really need to provide evidence of their existence.

Do you claim god/gods exist?

uck51js9zml2yt · 31-08-2019 6:59am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What’s my alternative to what? My alternative to making up explanations for things I don’t understand is to try to find out the actual explanations.

I don’t make the claim that god/gods exist so I don’t really need to provide evidence of their existence.

Do you claim god/gods exist?

You're being deliberately obtuse. You know exactly what my question meant.
In case you didn't.....
You don't believe in a Creator. So how did everything get here?

El_Duderino 09 · 31-08-2019 7:13am

Ariana Squeaking Supper wrote: »

You're being deliberately obtuse. You know exactly what my question meant.
In case you didn't.....
You don't believe in a Creator. So how did everything get here?

I don’t believe in a creator.

How did everything get here? I don’t know. I don’t claim to know everything. I’m ok with the fact that I don’t know everything. Lack of evidence to make a claim to knowledge at the moment so I don’t make a claim.

How do you think did “everything get here”?

Midster · 31-08-2019 8:53am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

There's plenty of wiggle room in quantum mechanics
The anthropic principle could be viewed as
- the universe only exists because we are here to observe it.
- the universe appears fine tuned for life because if it wasn't we couldn't be here to see it.

Ok so if there wasn’t a Big Bang (according to quantum science)
And it wasn’t created in just 7 short days by the god in the Christian holy bible.
There is always room for a coincidental existence, that being that all the building blocks of life just happened to be here on earth in the right place at the right time billions of years ago.

Except for, as any good police investigator will tell you. There is no such thing as coincidence, but and yet, in our case (our solar system, earth itself, evolution of human kind etc) there has been so many.

1st) We mastered fire and learnt how to burn things
2nd) We learnt by burning things we could also cook meat and make it a lot more tasty, and most importantly boil water.
Fast forward >>>>>>>
3rd) We learnt the steam made by boiling water could be pressurized which could be used in fact to make enormous things move.
4th) We learnt also by using the same technique we could create huge amounts of electricity
5th) We learnt by burning fossil fuels we cause pollution.
6th) First nuclear bomb goes off
7th) We learnt we could use nuclear power to boil water, make steam and create electric.
8th) We begin pegging back on our air polluting ways
9th) Solar panels and wind turbines come into effect.
10) Creating new tech all the time, that’s better and cleaner for the environment, attempting to repair the damage previous human steps had made through 1 to 10.

By using coal and fossil fuels, we accelerated the expansion of trade, business, infrastructure, social interactions, and most importantly, our own knowledge and technology.
Although we caused a lot of damage by doing that, if we hadn't we would still be riding horses to work at the bread mill.

Also thanks to our advancement, we are now inventing new green tech, which is something we could have only ever done by burning the fossil fuel in the first place.

Capt'n Midnight · 31-08-2019 10:24am

Midster wrote: »

Also thanks to our advancement, we are now inventing new green tech, which is something we could have only ever done by burning the fossil fuel in the first place.

Not sure how that post relates to the topic in question.

But for most of history metal processing was done with wood charcoal.
Coal was only used when they figured out how to make coke from it.

As for no such thing as coincidence ?
Convergent evolution would suggest otherwise. Same with technology. Lots of people came up with similar inventions at the same time. Similar conditions often result in somewhat similar solutions.

tim3000 · 31-08-2019 11:02am

Ariana Squeaking Supper wrote: »

You're being deliberately obtuse. You know exactly what my question meant.
In case you didn't.....
You don't believe in a Creator. So how did everything get here?

No one knows how the universe started but we can make some well informed and verifiable hypotheses about it.

Currently all of space is expanding in every direction. This is measurable by the red shifted light from distantly accelerating stars. Using this and some complicated maths we can measure the rate of expansion.

Now given that we know the rate of expanision and the fact that the universe is expanding we can work out that the universe is expanding from a singular point. Secondly we can estimate the age of the universe.

From here the what remains is salient question of where matter arises from? Simply put stars make matter and release it upon death

Midster · 31-08-2019 11:12am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

But for most of history metal processing was done with wood charcoal.
Coal was only used when they figured out how to make coke from it.

What?

Dr. Bre · 31-08-2019 11:16am

Everything has a creator it seems. So if god exists who created god then who created that god and so on....

Midster · 31-08-2019 11:28am

tim3000 wrote: »

Currently all of space is expanding in every direction. This is measurable by the red shifted light from distantly accelerating stars. Using this and some complicated maths we can measure the rate of expansion.

The rate of expansion into what?? How big is the area we are expanding into

Midster · 31-08-2019 11:30am

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Everything has a creator it seems. So if god exists who created god then who created that god and so on....

This is a ridiculously complicated question

BurnUp78 · 31-08-2019 11:32am

one world order wrote: »

God has always existed. Time is linked to matter and space. As God created the universe he is therefore outside of time.

How can you always exist? What's he doing now just chilling on the edge of space sipping a martini watching his creations kill each other over which incarnation of him is the right one?

Eire Go Brach · 31-08-2019 11:37am

one world order wrote: »

God has revealed himself several times in the past, such as when he created the Jewish people. Even today there have being people with a terminal illness that have had an encounter with Jesus Christ, after which they find themselves cured.

I think we were all born with the knowledge in our hearts that there is a God, but some have chosen to suppress it. Given that the mass produced mainstream media has sought to move us to an atheist society, this has resulted in a lot of people being deceived by those who work behind the scenes at the top.

That’s the bit I don’t get. The followers of Jesus Christ seem to make it up as they go along. Jesus was Jewish. So what’s the point of all the other religions if you follow him.
The Jews did not believe him of course.

In regards to being born with knowledge of a god. Religions get you young and brainwash you. Knowledge shows you that it’s impossible.
I’m an atheist for that reason. If you look at religions like maths. It just does not add up. Hence making it impossible.

tim3000 · 31-08-2019 12:08pm

Midster wrote: »

The rate of expansion into what?? How big is the area we are expanding into

I dont know cosmetology is not the Science I am most acquainted with. The previous post is just the condensed version of a lot of amateur research on my part.

I have heard that the universe is expanding into itself. At the very large scales and the very small common intuition has to take a back seat to abstraction. The everyday laws that govern our day to day existence break down at these scales.

The Science vs religion debate is an old one. If humanity was to disappear tomorrow and a new intelligent species to evolve all the old knowledge would again be discovered I cant say for certain about our religions.

one world order · 31-08-2019 12:26pm

Eire Go Brach wrote: »

That’s the bit I don’t get. The followers of Jesus Christ seem to make it up as they go along. Jesus was Jewish. So what’s the point of all the other religions if you follow him.
The Jews did not believe him of course.

In regards to being born with knowledge of a god. Religions get you young and brainwash you. Knowledge shows you that it’s impossible.
I’m an atheist for that reason. If you look at religions like maths. It just does not add up. Hence making it impossible.

As the message from the bible is being told to the people then there is no making it up from one generation to the next. Other religions like Buddhism and Hinduism believe in reincarnation, while others like Islam and Judaism believe in good works to get into heaven that can be exhausting. Christianity says put your trust in Jesus and he will forgive our sinful nature.

You say knowledge says God is impossible but there is no knowledge to say God doesn't exist, actually it's the very opposite. If you say we are to use maths then what is the probability that earth is just at the right distance from the sun so it's not too cold or hot, that the magnetic from the moon pulls the tidal flow, that we have the correct level of gas in the atmosphere for our survival, etc..

Ferajacka · 31-08-2019 12:35pm

This thread has restored my faith in Christ in a way. All he asks is we believe in him with blind Faith. Seems like we have nothing to loose in that.
We don't need to know how things work for that. Seems like if we do, something like CERN could figure it out but blow us all to kingdom come in the process.
My worst fear is if the CERN boys destroy this universe it disrupts the creation of the next one in an attempt to truely end Gods greatest creation in the ultimate act of evil.

Midster · 31-08-2019 12:48pm

The biggest fact that didn’t happen, is that if god had let himself be known from day one of our evolution, held our hand and healed the sick, brought back the dead sometimes perhaps, made the impossible possible, this planet we are on right now would have been so full of people by now god would now be waving his wand every milli second of every day saving us and our families from death.
If there is a god, and I do hope there is. I’m glad he has left us to make it on our own.

El_Duderino 09 · 31-08-2019 1:03pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Not sure how that post relates to the topic in question.

But for most of history metal processing was done with wood charcoal.
Coal was only used when they figured out how to make coke from it.

As for no such thing as coincidence ?
Convergent evolution would suggest otherwise. Same with technology. Lots of people came up with similar inventions at the same time. Similar conditions often result in somewhat similar solutions.

Yeah the “no such thing as coincidence “ is a red herring. Police have to investigate when there appears to be a coincidence, and sometime it leads to more info.but they just discount the times there is a genuine coincidence. Hence the heuristic that there is no such thing as coincidence.

locum-motion · 31-08-2019 1:25pm

one world order wrote: »

Science has been unable to disprove the existence of a creator...

Y'see, that's your fundamental misunderstanding there. It's not science's job to disprove the creator.

Science observes, asks why, and then attempts to prove if the answer it came up with is correct or not.

Religion observes, asks why, then decides that some magic must be the correct answer, then says a person must have faith in the answer that it came up with, and if a person don't have faith, then it's up to that person to prove that magic isn't the answer.

That's getting it backwards.

If I don't believe your version of the magic, then that's your problem, not mine.

El_Duderino 09 · 31-08-2019 1:34pm

Midster wrote: »

This is a ridiculously complicated question

It’s not that complicated. The claim is that everything that exists has a creator. So if a creator exists, it must have a creator.

If the creator exists and doesn’t have a creator, then not things that exist needs a creator so the argument goes out the window.

Midster · 31-08-2019 2:13pm

Ok so does anyone else think that in this year 2019 we were supposed to have messed up the planet as much as we have done.

Since electricity for the masses was only possible in the beginning by burning coal.

And the light that it gave aloud inventors to work throughout the night after then.

Also most inventions after then invented to use that very same electricity.

It feels like a path was laid out for us before hand and were just walking it. Lol

BorneTobyWilde · 31-08-2019 2:24pm

Creating a universe is not possible. Life happened on earth, and on millions of other planets accidentally. I think people do have souls though, that death is not the end.

Midster · 31-08-2019 3:34pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Creating a universe is not possible. Life happened on earth, and on millions of other planets accidentally. I think people do have souls though, that death is not the end.

So in your mind, when someone dies, is there soul restricted to only the earth. Or can a soul travel anywhere it wants to

uck51js9zml2yt · 31-08-2019 4:38pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don’t believe in a creator.

How did everything get here? I don’t know. I don’t claim to know everything. I’m ok with the fact that I don’t know everything. Lack of evidence to make a claim to knowledge at the moment so I don’t make a claim.

How do you think did “everything get here”?

So you don't know and call those of us who do.. whatever.
In answer to your question..see last word of your first sentence above.

How would you like to think we got here? Maybe that's an easier question for you to answer.

uck51js9zml2yt · 31-08-2019 4:39pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Creating a universe is not possible. Life happened on earth, and on millions of other planets accidentally. I think people do have souls though, that death is not the end.

How do you know it's not possible?

El_Duderino 09 · 31-08-2019 4:51pm

Ariana Squeaking Supper wrote: »

So you don't know and call those of us who do.. whatever.
In answer to your question..see last word of your first sentence above.

How would you like to think we got here? Maybe that's an easier question for you to answer.

You know how we got here? Stop the lights. You should tell the science community to stop wasting their time, you already know everything. Lol.

Oh I don’t have a preference for how we got here. Being led by preference is a truly terrible way to find out how things work. But that’s what you’ve done so there’s probably no point telling you that. I’ll just wait for the evidence and follow that.

Lol “what’s your preferences”. As if my preference could have any impact on what actually happened in the past. That’s what religion does though. It helps people pretend they have all the answers. I don’t have all the answers and I know it. You don’t have all the answers but you’ve invented a creator.

If you want to believe, go for it but don’t try to mangle reality to fit your beliefs

El_Duderino 09 · 31-08-2019 4:53pm

Ariana Squeaking Supper wrote: »

How do you know it's not possible?

Amazingly, that’s the right question. How do you know...?

If only you applied the same question to your own assertions.

endacl · 31-08-2019 6:59pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It’s not that complicated. The claim is that everything that exists has a creator. So if a creator exists, it must have a creator.

If the creator exists and doesn’t have a creator, then not things that exist needs a creator so the argument goes out the window.

It’s turtles all the way down, innit?

uck51js9zml2yt · 31-08-2019 7:23pm

endacl wrote: »

It’s turtles all the way down, innit?

I thought it was more 1 giant turtle with elephants all the way down

uck51js9zml2yt · 31-08-2019 7:26pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You know how we got here? Stop the lights. You should tell the science community to stop wasting their time, you already know everything. Lol.

Oh I don’t have a preference for how we got here. Being led by preference is a truly terrible way to find out how things work. But that’s what you’ve done so there’s probably no point telling you that. I’ll just wait for the evidence and follow that.

Lol “what’s your preferences”. As if my preference could have any impact on what actually happened in the past. That’s what religion does though. It helps people pretend they have all the answers. I don’t have all the answers and I know it. You don’t have all the answers but you’ve invented a creator.

If you want to believe, go for it but don’t try to mangle reality to fit your beliefs

Revelling in your own ignorance. I've seen it all now

There's no point arguing with a fool, real or imaginary

El_Duderino 09 · 31-08-2019 7:27pm

endacl wrote: »

It’s turtles all the way down, innit?

That’s what I’ve heard. Or maybe there aren’t any turtles and it’s something else.

Eire Go Brach · 31-08-2019 8:54pm

The thing is as humans all we are is animals at the top of the food chain. The most intelligent animal on the planet. When it comes to death. We are no different then the fly dieing on the windowsill.

We live on. Same as all the other animals and insects. Through procreation. Through our kids.

When our body dies. We are just molecules and atoms. The universe just absorbs us and hopefully we become something cool.

locum-motion · 31-08-2019 9:11pm

Ariana Squeaking Supper wrote: »

...
There's no point arguing with a fool, real or imaginary

In this argument, I know who I think is the fool!

El_Duderino 09 · 31-08-2019 9:41pm

Ariana Squeaking Supper wrote: »

Revelling in your own ignorance. I've seen it all now

There's no point arguing with a fool, real or imaginary

Admitting my own ignorance. The worst thing I could do is pretend I know everything by inventing any old creator instead of simply saying “I don’t know how that works”.

Do you seriously see that as revelling in my own ignorance? Do you honestly think you know everything?

You also didn’t answer my question on what my preference has to do with the reality of what actually happened.

Midster · 01-09-2019 1:35am

Ok so this is my theory:

(Stay with me cause it’s a bit mad)

Since the very first tiny organism swam in the ocean, and the very first piece of vegetation took hold on the land, the evolution of everything that there is now, and has ever been in the past has been as varied as it possibly ever could be.
Every mode of life explored to the fullest, then refined, almost as if looking for perfection in every line and avenue life could itself could make possible.

Whenever people talk about evolution they always seem to talk about animals.

Which I personally think it a little bit unfair as plants, bushes and trees have also had there own journey, and evolutionary path all of there own.

Most all are pollinated by birds or insects, but in very rare cases, some rare plants have evolved in such a way that they can only ever be pollinated by a specialized animal (bird or insect.)
They evolve together in partnership and become so specialized to each other that one could not exist without the other

Like an evolutionary handshake.

And the same goes for seeds, as some seeds are so deadly poisonous or sickening, if any other animal other than what was meant to ate the seed that animal would quickly fall ill, or maybe even die

On the subject of seeds, trees for example have a problem in that in some areas were dropping the seeds straight down only results in the seeds being buried, perhaps never seeing any sunlight and therefore the seed is wasted.

So, some plants, trees and bushes have evolved to make use of any available transport there is, some use the guts of birds and fall far away from were they came from, to be dropped inside bird droppings, others make the best use of the wind.

Evolution created us, and although there has always been stronger and more deadly predators out there we found a way to fend them off, we have made use of the land like no other animal and prospered.

Look at us now, we have built cities made of rock, clay and concrete, we fear almost nothing and were our own intelligence proves to slow, we have built computers, which will no doubt one day become a species all of there own.

Now look into space, lifeless planets in far away places and the only hope of nature on earth colonizing them is through us.

My theory is that, that was nature’s intention from the beginning. To grow and spread throughout earths land, and explore all evolutionary possibilities until one is found with intelligence enough, to give nature another planet to bring to life. Like the specialized animal taking the seed, we are nature’s only hope to keep spreading, and if we can make it to the stars, there is no limit to how our own animals and creatures will evolve again to suit the new conditions.

El_Duderino 09 · 01-09-2019 10:04am

Midster wrote: »

Ok so this is my theory:

(Stay with me cause it’s a bit mad)
[...]
Now look at so ace, lifeless planets in far away places and the only hope of nature on earth colonizing them is through us.

My theory is that, that was nature’s intention from the beginning. To grow and spread throughout earths land, and explore all evolutionary possibilities until one is found with intelligence enough, to give nature another planet to bring to life. Like the specialized animal taking the seed, we are nature’s only hope to keep spreading, and if we can make it to the stars, there is no limit to how our own animals and creatures will evolve again to suit the new conditions.

Are you giving nature some kind of consciousness? That’s a big leap. How did you find out nature has a consciousness?

looksee · 01-09-2019 10:28am

one world order wrote: »

You say knowledge says God is impossible but there is no knowledge to say God doesn't exist, actually it's the very opposite. If you say we are to use maths then what is the probability that earth is just at the right distance from the sun so it's not too cold or hot, that the magnetic from the moon pulls the tidal flow, that we have the correct level of gas in the atmosphere for our survival, etc..

Or maybe you have it back to front, and life evolved to suit the conditions available rather than it being miraculous that the conditions happened to suit the life form that evolved.

Midster · 01-09-2019 11:19am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Are you giving nature some kind of consciousness? That’s a big leap. How did you find out nature has a consciousness?

I don’t know.

But if we go back to a genuine question the quantum theory scientists are asking themselves.

Does the universe only exist because we are here to see it.

It begs the question, is anything truly random

Midster · 01-09-2019 11:22am

And is anything that’s happened before now, truly a coincidence

El_Duderino 09 · 01-09-2019 2:00pm

Midster wrote: »

I don’t know.

But if we go back to a genuine question the quantum theory scientists are asking themselves.

Does the universe only exist because we are here to see it.

It begs the question, is anything truly random

It calls for questioning and that great, but it doesn’t call for throwing any old answer at the question. You’re looking for any old way possible to answer the question in such a way that there are god/gods.

The questions are great, the answers are only reasonable when the evidence is there to back them up. What’s happening is you’re starting with an answer (god/gods) and looking for a way to apply it.

El_Duderino 09 · 01-09-2019 2:04pm

Midster wrote: »

And is anything that’s happened before now, truly a coincidence

I don’t know so I don’t have justification for proposing and answers beyond wild speculations or thought experiments.

Do you know if anything that’s happened before now, is truly a coincidence?

endacl · 01-09-2019 2:05pm

looksee wrote: »

Or maybe you have it back to front, and life evolved to suit the conditions available rather than it being miraculous that the conditions happened to suit the life form that evolved.

Funnily enough, Venus is also in the same zone.

Go figure...

uck51js9zml2yt · 01-09-2019 3:06pm

Midster wrote: »

I don’t know.

But if we go back to a genuine question the quantum theory scientists are asking themselves.

Does the universe only exist because we are here to see it.

It begs the question, is anything truly random

So we get the something out of nothing theory.

El_Duderino 09 · 01-09-2019 3:45pm

Ariana Squeaking Supper wrote: »

So we get the something out of nothing theory.

If that’s a theory you want to propose, then go ahead. I don’t know how the universe started and I don’t pretend to know.

I suspect you’re a fan of the creator out of nothing idea. Would that be correct?

NIMAN · 01-09-2019 4:05pm

one world order wrote: »

I think we were all born with the knowledge in our hearts that there is a God, but some have chosen to suppress it. Given that the mass produced mainstream media has sought to move us to an atheist society, this has resulted in a lot of people being deceived by those who work behind the scenes at the top.

I believe the opposite is true.

The media and the powers that be are actually keeping religion alive and up front.

Its people thinking for themselves that is creating atheists.

Midster · 01-09-2019 4:29pm

1 of 2
If a genuine question within the quantum science world is, does the universe exist only because we are here to view it.

And that is something worth questioning.

Then there must have been previous questions that have been answered that have led them to think there is reason enough to ask this one.

I would say though that an entire universe existing, most of which has been completely invisible to us until recently is unlikely.

But none the less, it exists.

Which could mean that there is other life on other worlds within our galaxy and our universe that also have a consciousness, and also look up at the stars.

With the billions of galaxies that we know exists, I surmise that if the answer to the question, does the universe exist because we are here to see it is yes.

Then there must be millions of planets populated by living beings in every galaxy in every universe in order for it to be there at all.

Midster · 01-09-2019 4:37pm

2 of 2
It happens in nature, all be it very rarely that a plant might evolve specially to suit one particular bird.
At the same time, that same bird evolves specially to suit the plant.
Long term result is a situation is were one is only able to continue to exist, because of the existence of the other.

It’s like a evolutionary handshake of sorts

But if it truly is a relevant question to ask does the universe exist because we are here to see it then it suggests to me a partnership similar to the evolutionary one I mentioned before.

An evolution of consciousness, and reality tied together over time so tightly they are indistinguishable.

Science vs religion

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