Science vs religion

Midster

Hi there, I’m not sure if there is a similar thread to this one.
My question is, what with the discoveries of quantum science, alternate universes, the smallest of atoms being proven to have the ability to be in more than one place at any one time, string theory, worm holes, etc. I mean the subject is huge.
Does this discount any possibility of there being a god of any kind anywhere?
I personally am a big follower of science of all types, but I am also a believer in a god of some description.
I wondered what opinions others might have on the subject

uck51js9zml2yt

Surely it makes sense that with all the complexity we are finding in the universe that we have gone beyond the idea of a random bang theory.
It points to a Creator and if it was created, then so were we.

Capt'n Midnight

There's plenty of wiggle room in quantum mechanics to satisfy both sides.

And there's a long history of scientific discoveries by members of the clergy.


The anthropic principle could be viewed as
- the universe only exists because we are here to observe it.
- the universe appears fine tuned for life because if it wasn't we couldn't be here to see it.



Here's another theory

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded
as a bad move.

Many races believe that it was created by some sort of God,
though the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI believe that the
entire Universe was in fact sneezed out of the nose of a being
called the Great Green Arkleseizure.

The Jatravartids, who live in perpetual fear of the time they
call The Coming of The Great White Handkerchief, are small blue
creatures with more than fifty arms each, who are therefore
unique in being the only race in history to have invented the
aerosol deodorant before the wheel.

However, the Great Green Arkleseizure Theory is not widely
accepted outside Viltvodle VI and so, the Universe being the
puzzling place it is, other explanations are constantly being
sought."

- Douglas Adams

Midster

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

In the beginning the Universe was created.

This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded
as a bad move.

Many races believe that it was created by some sort of God,
though the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI believe that the
entire Universe was in fact sneezed out of the nose of a being
called the Great Green Arkleseizure.

The Jatravartids, who live in perpetual fear of the time they
call The Coming of The Great White Handkerchief, are small blue
creatures with more than fifty arms each, who are therefore
unique in being the only race in history to have invented the
aerosol deodorant before the wheel.

However, the Great Green Arkleseizure Theory is not widely
accepted outside Viltvodle VI and so, the Universe being the
puzzling place it is, other explanations are constantly being
sought."

- Douglas Adams

The second bit sounds like something from the first hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.

El_Duderino 09

Ariana Squeaking Supper wrote: »

Surely it makes sense that with all the complexity we are finding in the universe that we have gone beyond the idea of a random bang theory.
It points to a Creator and if it was created, then so were we.

If you look at it like that then the game is rigged so god wins. He old “god of he gaps “ argument. Where you know some things with gaps. Whenever you find out something’s new, it creates a gap on each side for god to hide in.

I would have just thought it’s irrelevant to the question of gods. If you want to believe, then believe. But leave science to deal with reality.

Midster

it’s a tricky one alright. So much to think about in the world of quantum science, multi verses, atoms being in more than one place at any one time, things behaving differently one way if you observe them to another way if you don’t, even recording gear or cameras have an effect on experiment, it’s an extremely confusing subject, even people trying to study it get confused by it.

El_Duderino 09

Midster wrote: »

it’s a tricky one alright. So much to think about in the world of quantum science, multi verses, atoms being in more than one place at any one time, things behaving differently one way if you observe them to another way if you don’t, even recording gear or cameras have an effect on experiment, it’s an extremely confusing subject, even people trying to study it get confused by it.

There’s plenty to think about alright but why do you think it points to gods? I don’t see how you get to gods unless you employ the logic that if we don’t currently understand something then it’s evidence for gods.

Is there any positive evidence for gods in quantum science?

Midster

The simple answer is no. But also it’s fare to say that for as long as there are things that we cannot understand or explain, that it leaves the door open to there being one.

El_Duderino 09

Midster wrote: »

The simple answer is no. But also it’s fare to say that for as long as there are things that we cannot understand or explain, that it leaves the door open to there being one.

Sure. It leaves the door open to there being anything until we understand it, if we understand it. Like everything in the past, god is imagined as a cause and every time people figure out how that thing works, the answer has never been gods.

You brought up science as a vehicle to propose god as the answer. God of the gaps lives in the things we don't understand. Every time we find out something new, the God is chased out of that gap and it's filled with knowledge.

Lightening used to be gods, earthquakes used to be gods, now you're proposing quantum gods. It's an old story that's been retold with new gaps in knowledge and it doesn't end well for the gods.

I'll just wait until there's evidence of gods anywhere. What will you do?

one world order

Science is pointing in the direction of a creator. It's not possible to create everything out of nothing. At present the evil that control this world at the top are trying to find the God particle by opening the door to the other dimension in CERN, a 27km tunnel spanning Switzerland and France.

Eire Go Brach

one world order wrote: »

Science is pointing in the direction of a creator. It's not possible to create everything out of nothing.

Who created the creator? If he created stuff from
nothing?

one world order

Eire Go Brach wrote: »

Who created the creator? If he created stuff from
nothing?

God has always existed. Time is linked to matter and space. As God created the universe he is therefore outside of time.

NIMAN

Alternate universes have been discovered?

First I heard.

El_Duderino 09

one world order wrote: »

God has always existed. Time is linked to matter and space. As God created the universe he is therefore outside of time.

Sounds like you’ve got it all sorted. No need to try to understand reality when you already know things like this based on absolutely no evidence.

Mucking around with evidence is only for the ignorant and the those who don’t already know everything.

jaxxx

Why does God need to be a he? Why does there have to be a single God? Why is orange the new black? These are,, ,, ,, questions.

Eire Go Brach

one world order wrote: »

God has always existed. Time is linked to matter and space. As God created the universe he is therefore outside of time.

Chicken and Egg. You have been watching Star Trek. Your a fan of Q.

Why does god need a spaceship?

Midster

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'll just wait until there's evidence of gods anywhere. What will you do?

I completely agree, science has done a pretty good job through the years of throwing out god theories. I grew up in a world were almost everything god had already been thrown out by science.
Water is just water, no mater how many times you bless it.
Stone is stone

Everything is just exactly what it looks and feels like and nothing more.

I first became interested in quantum science because it challenged that, it tells us that things at the tiniest of scales are not always as they seem, and not always straight forward.

Why should certain things behave differently if you watch it to if you don’t?

And if there are so many multiverses, and tiny atoms can be in more than one place at any one time, are they jumping between universes, and if so are the universes linked together somehow, and if they are, are all of the multiverses combined part of something even bigger.

Does the universe we see only exist because living beings are here to observe it, and if that’s true, what happens when every star is dead and after every living being dead, would the universe shink down to nothing in less than a second and perform another expansion.

It might sound silly to some, but I believe the quantum science subject has the very best chance of uncovering a deeper meaning to everything.

Maybe all this time we have been searching for god in the clouds, and in space we were looking in the wrong place, and now we have the tech, we are finding tiny clues.

one world order

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Sounds like you’ve got it all sorted. No need to try to understand reality when you already know things like this based on absolutely no evidence.

Mucking around with evidence is only for the ignorant and the those who don’t already know everything.

If you have alternative evidence then feel free to share. We already have God's message in the bible that mentions the circle of the earth and God hangs earth on nothing. This was 2,000 years ago ever before it was proven the earth was round or it hangs in space.

El_Duderino 09

Midster wrote: »

I completely agree, science has done a pretty good job through the years of throwing out god theories. I grew up in a world were almost everything god had already been thrown out by science.
Water is just water, no mater how many times you bless it.
Stone is stone

Everything is just exactly what it looks and feels like and nothing more.

I first became interested in quantum science because it challenged that, it tells us that things at the tiniest of scales are not always as they seem, and not always straight forward.

Why should certain things behave differently if you watch it to if you don’t?

And if there are so many multiverses, and tiny atoms can be in more than one place at any one time, are they jumping between universes, and if so are the universes linked together somehow, and if they are, are all of the multiverses combined part of something even bigger.

Does the universe we see only exist because living beings are here to observe it, and if that’s true, what happens when every star is dead and after every living being dead, would the universe shink down to nothing in less than a second and perform another expansion.

It might sound silly to some, but I believe the quantum science subject has the very best chance of uncovering a deeper meaning to everything.

Maybe all this time we have been searching for god in the clouds, and in space we were looking in the wrong place, and now we have the tech, we are finding tiny clues.

I think quantum science is only different from the other places god has been pushed out of because we don’t understand it yet. It’s a hiding place for god, for now.

All those things are fascinating questions. And as with everything else, the answer is probably much more interesting than “god did it using magic”.

You’re giving gods the benefit of the doubt that they exist. In science the benefit of the doubt is reserved for things that have a lot of evidence and have evaded being disproved. Gods are nowhere near that. So why bring them into it?

El_Duderino 09

one world order wrote: »

If you have alternative evidence then feel free to share. We already have God's message in the bible that mentions the circle of the earth and God hangs earth on nothing. This was 2,000 years ago ever before it was proven the earth was round or it hangs in space.

Oh. Well in that case, you got me. All the gods with books win. End of discussion, I suppose.

Like I said, looking for evidence is probably only really for people who don’t know everything already. I’ll just keep waiting for evidence of what’s real.

nthclare

If you're going to debate the God thing, you've a lot of research and understanding as to what God the non believer doesn't believe in.
An absolute nightmare.

Atheists no 1 believes that you believe in a sky fairy or a man who hears, see's and judge's your every decision, thought and action...
He's the dangerous bastard to debate because he's already made up his mind without asking you what type of God do you believe in.
He believes that you believe in a bearded guy you'd see in a cartoon, he's no respect for you whatsoever. You're just a delusional fool nothing more.

Then you've the understanding Atheist who's been a believer and made up his own mind, but he can empathize with you and is willing to listen, but won't go back to religion.

Then you've the real bitter bastard atheist who actually thinks he's a God, he hates the church, goes around telling everyone he's an atheist and has loads of buzz words to use against your beliefs.

Then you've the atheist who's already made up his mind and couldn't be bothered immersing themselves in a pointless arguement.
He just gets on with it and totally detached from religion and metaphysical subjects.

You've the agnostic who's neither an atheist or a believer.
He's willing to do more research than atheist no 1 and tries to understand why some people believe in God, then sits back and takes it or leaves it.
Has the odd debate.

Then you've the likes of the Atheist who wants to be the king of the atheists, out there fighting a pointless cause.
Wearing a red t-shirt and loves the sound of his own voice.
Can be seen frequently in cities stopping by guys trying to promote their religion and just being a knob.

You've the new atheist who breathlessly bounces around telling everyone they're an atheist, bounced out of the closest....

There's similar people who are religious, obsessed, narcissistic, and hypocrites.

Although it has to be said there's a lot of money to be made in religion, telling people fables and tall stories.
Those Christian pastor's in America make an absolute fortune our of people's good intentions.

Waiting for the WTF response

El_Duderino 09

nthclare wrote: »

If you're going to debate the God thing, you've a lot of research and understanding as to what God the non believer doesn't believe in.
An absolute nightmare.

Why bother going to a pop science forum to discuss gods? The burden of proof is on anyone who claims gods exist. They don’t have to meet that burden in the religious forums but surely they understand that they will need to have some good evidence in a science forum.

Shoehorning gods onto things we don’t understand is as old as things we don’t understand. Not understanding things isn’t evidence for gods, though some people mistake it for evidence.

PMU

one world order wrote: »

Science is pointing in the direction of a creator. It's not possible to create everything out of nothing. At present the evil that control this world at the top are trying to find the God particle by opening the door to the other dimension in CERN, a 27km tunnel spanning Switzerland and France.

really?

nthclare

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Why bother going to a pop science forum to discuss gods? The burden of proof is on anyone who claims gods exist. They don’t have to meet that burden in the religious forums but surely they understand that they will need to have some good evidence in a science forum.

Shoehorning gods onto things we don’t understand is as old as things we don’t understand. Not understanding things isn’t evidence for gods, though some people mistake it for evidence.

Absolutely I totally agree with you.

Midster

All I’m saying is that the reality that science presented to us before quantum was always very dependable, with strict laws governing everything from, size, weight, speed, formation etc etc. that type of science explains very well what everything is and what it’s made of.

But quantum explains everything else.

Is is the flexible non reality that the previous cold hard reality sits on.

It’s the place we’re literally everything comes into question.

And it gives reality itself almost a form of intelligence all of its own

Now if there is a god, personally I really don’t know. But if there is one at all ever, it’s going to be there.

El_Duderino 09

Midster wrote: »

All I’m saying is that the reality that science presented to us before quantum was always very dependable, with strict laws governing everything from, size, weight, speed, formation etc etc. that type of science explains very well what everything is and what it’s made of.

But quantum explains everything else.

Is is the flexible non reality that the previous cold hard reality sits on.

It’s the place we’re literally everything comes into question.

And it gives reality itself almost a form of intelligence all of its own

Now if there is a god, personally I really don’t know. But if there is one at all ever, it’s going to be there.

Disagree that everything before quantum was “always very dependable, with strict laws governing everything from, size, weight, speed, formation etc etc.” It was dependable AFTER people figured out how they work, through testing, hard graft and a lot more failure than success. Now it’s easy to look back and say everything is dependable.

Do you think things were obviously governed by laws before we understood the laws?

You’re creating a space for god because we don’t know how it works yet. It’s not the last hiding pace for gods because if we figure out how quantum things work, then we’ll still have more unknown things, and god will be given those areas to hide until we get to understand how they work.

You’re treating quantum like it’s actually different from everything we didn’t understand in the past. It isn’t. Lightning was too weird to explain without gods. Weather wa too weird to explain without gods, metallurgy was too weird to explain without gods. Then we explained then and gods had to find another place to live.

Quantum is just unexplained like all the other things we can’t explain yet. And what about all the things we don’t even know about yet? Gods must be eyeing them is as hiding places for the future.

Black Swan

Ariana Squeaking Supper wrote: »

Surely it makes sense that with all the complexity we are finding in the universe that we have gone beyond the idea of a random bang theory.

Scientific theories continue to emerge, evolve (see Wallace's Wheel of Science), and in some cases have no longer been supported by the data. They are theories, or educated guesses, and to the extent that they are falsifiable, they remain within the scientific domain (see Karl Popper). Furthermore, the scientific method only suggests, provided that the preponderance of data supports such suggestions.

Ariana Squeaking Supper wrote: »

It points to a Creator and if it was created, then so were we.

This a position of faith, not science.

joe40

Black Swan wrote: »

Scientific theories continue to emerge, evolve (see Wallace's Wheel of Science), and in some cases have no longer been supported by the data. They are theories, or educated guesses, and to the extent that they are falsifiable, they remain within the scientific domain (see Karl Popper). Furthermore, the scientific method only suggests, provided that the preponderance of data supports such suggestions.
This a position of faith, not science.

That is a good answer. There isn't really any science vs. religion debate because they do not cover the same ground.
Science is a very particular way of understanding the world/universe around us based on the idea of a testable hypothesis.
This is the strength of science but also its constraint, Science must work within set parameters.
Sometimes there is a time gap between scientific theories and experimental evidence, but the search for verifiable evidence is always the ultimate pursuit of science.

Religion, like philosophy, asks questions but does not require the same level of verifiable evidence. That leaves it more open.
In fact, Religion often demands belief, in the absence of proof. Faith is more valued than proof.

In terms of the quantum theories there are is evidence, but still a lack in some areas. The theories are still accepted because the search for more evidence is ongoing, and new theories will be adopted in the event of new evidence.

For many people Religion and science can co-exist, they don't neutralise each other. Religion for religious people does not require proof or even evidence. Science always does.

Midster

Ok so here is my question:

With our galaxy being the jaw dropping size that it is.
The universe our galaxy moves through trillion times of more massive than that.
And the space outside of our universe being of unmeasurable size.
And if all of the multiverses including our own are to make our own planet look like nothing more than an atom, not visible to the naked eye, and only visible under extreme magnification.

If that is true so far

If god created everything and is therefore of same size or bigger (possibly much bigger) then how would anyone ever expect to be able to prove definitively, that he exists at all.

El_Duderino 09

Midster wrote: »

Ok so here is my question:

With our galaxy being the jaw dropping size that it is.
The universe our galaxy moves through trillion times of more massive than that.
And the space outside of our universe being of unmeasurable size.
And if all of the multiverses including our own are to make our own planet look like nothing more than an atom, not visible to the naked eye, and only visible under extreme magnification.

If that is true so far

If god created everything and is therefore of same size or bigger (possibly much bigger) then how would anyone ever expect to be able to prove definitively, that he exists at all.

God is the size of the universe? How would you know that god has a size at all?

I don’t expect it to be “proven definitively”. I don’t even expect believers to propose falsifiable gods. But like everything else, I’ll reserve judgment until there’s evidence. No evidence, no consideration beyond speculation. Simple as that.

BDI

It definitely won’t be anybody’s god that they believe in now.

Whatever you believe in or pray to, if there ever is a god found, it will not be your god and you arnt worshipping him.

Your religion, whichever one you have, was made to give people of the time rules so they would all get on, obey the boss of the place and fight well when needed to.

Whichever god may be out there didn’t give Moses Ten Commandments and didn’t give Jesus to the world and didn’t give the other fella we can’t draw whatever he got.

So just carry on doing what you are doing until we find out more I suppose.

TheValeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why does god need a spaceship?

This never happened. Ever.

El_Duderino 09

TheValeyard wrote: »

This never happened. Ever.

Correct. The quote was “what does God need with a starship”.

The following lines were never said either or are quoted incorrectly;
“Luke, I am your father”
“Beam me up Scotty”
“Me Tarzan, you Jane”
“We’re going to need a bigger boat”


Bit off topic but interesting.

joe40

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Correct. The quote was “what does God need with a starship”.

The following lines were never said either or are quoted incorrectly;
“Luke, I am your father”
“Beam me up Scotty”
“Me Tarzan, you Jane”
“We’re going to need a bigger boat”


Bit off topic but interesting.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=#&ved=2ahUKEwiQhZWO_KrkAhUUtnEKHS-1D10QwqsBMAF6BAgGEAo&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

Don't know about the others but the last quote was said.

uptherebels

one world order wrote: »

If you have alternative evidence then feel free to share. We already have God's message in the bible that mentions the circle of the earth and God hangs earth on nothing. This was 2,000 years ago ever before it was proven the earth was round or it hangs in space.

You might want to read up on your history a bit, specifically on the understanding of a spherical earth.

El_Duderino 09

joe40 wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=#&ved=2ahUKEwiQhZWO_KrkAhUUtnEKHS-1D10QwqsBMAF6BAgGEAo&usg=AOvVaw0VTJzWxrN8ZFOD4xbU2nov

Don't know about the others but the last quote was said.

Trivial distinction but he says you’re going to need ... not we’re.

one world order

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

God is the size of the universe? How would you know that god has a size at all?

I don’t expect it to be “proven definitively”. I don’t even expect believers to propose falsifiable gods. But like everything else, I’ll reserve judgment until there’s evidence. No evidence, no consideration beyond speculation. Simple as that.

God has revealed himself several times in the past, such as when he created the Jewish people. Even today there have being people with a terminal illness that have had an encounter with Jesus Christ, after which they find themselves cured.

I think we were all born with the knowledge in our hearts that there is a God, but some have chosen to suppress it. Given that the mass produced mainstream media has sought to move us to an atheist society, this has resulted in a lot of people being deceived by those who work behind the scenes at the top.

endacl

Ariana Squeaking Supper wrote: »

Surely it makes sense that with all the complexity we are finding in the universe that we have gone beyond the idea of a random bang theory.
It points to a Creator and if it was created, then so were we.

If you’d never heard of the concept of a ‘creator’, you’d never independently come up with the notion.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

I'm not religious but I always find it slightly fascinating how simplistic the thinking of some science worshipers and atheists is. Life is a mystery. Science is a tool. Our current scientific model is one language of many, not THE language. These discussions are, and will always be, philosophical. Embrace the mystery.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

endacl wrote: »

If you’d never heard of the concept of a ‘creator’, you’d never independently come up with the notion.

You can't really be this naive.

BDI

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

I'm not religious but I always find it slightly fascinating how simplistic the thinking of some science worshipers and atheists is. Life is a mystery. Science is a tool. Our current scientific model is one language of many, not THE language. These discussions are, and will always be, philosophical. Embrace the mystery.

And it feels like home, just like a prayer your voice can take me there.

Midster

endacl wrote: »

If you’d never heard of the concept of a ‘creator’, you’d never independently come up with the notion.

Actually you couldn’t be more wrong, somebody in the very earliest part of human history began worship.

El_Duderino 09

one world order wrote: »

God has revealed himself several times in the past, such as when he created the Jewish people. Even today there have being people with a terminal illness that have had an encounter with Jesus Christ, after which they find themselves cured.

I think we were all born with the knowledge in our hearts that there is a God, but some have chosen to suppress it. Given that the mass produced mainstream media has sought to move us to an atheist society, this has resulted in a lot of people being deceived by those who work behind the scenes at the top.

Oh right.

Science puts itself at such a disadvantage by having such high standards of evidence by comparison to religion. You must believe all the gods and religious claims if you’re willing to accept that evidence.

I’ll just hold on for testable evidence. If it comes then fair enough, that’s the time to take it seriously. If it doesn’t come then it’s just like everything else in the category of interesting fantasies and ideas. That’s ok by the way. No harm fanaticising about gods. But it’s wrong to twist interpretation of reality to pretend there’s good evidence for gods. Lowering the standard of evidence for gods isn’t the way to go though. If you lower the standards of evidence foreverything then you’d believe loads of things and you’d be in big trouble.

one world order

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Oh right.

Science puts itself at such a disadvantage by having such high standards of evidence by comparison to religion. You must believe all the gods and religious claims if you’re willing to accept that evidence.

I’ll just hold on for testable evidence. If it comes then fair enough, that’s the time to take it seriously. If it doesn’t come then it’s just like everything else in the category of interesting fantasies and ideas. That’s ok by the way. No harm fanaticising about gods. But it’s wrong to twist interpretation of reality to pretend there’s good evidence for gods. Lowering the standard of evidence for gods isn’t the way to go though. If you lower the standards of evidence foreverything then you’d believe loads of things and you’d be in big trouble.

Science has been unable to disprove the existence of a creator and the more science has been evolving the more it points to the existence of the spiritual world.

I believe in one God and that he sent his only son into this world for forgiveness of our sins. So when you take your last breath in this world and your spirit leaves your body, will you still be asking for testable evidence on your day of judgement?

abff

one world order wrote: »

Science has been unable to disprove the existence of a creator

No, but common sense does.

one world order

abff wrote: »

No, but common sense does.

As in your own personal suppression of the existence of God?

El_Duderino 09

one world order wrote: »

Science has been unable to disprove the existence of a creator and the more science has been evolving the more it points to the existence of the spiritual world.

I believe in one God and that he sent his only son into this world for forgiveness of our sins. So when you take your last breath in this world and your spirit leaves your body, will you still be asking for testable evidence on your day of judgement?

Is it sciences job to disprove gods before gods provide evidence of themselves. Until then is it fair to consider it anything more than fantasy? By failing to disprove gods, they’re in the same category as everything else that can’t be tested; fairies, goblins, unicorns etc. Now if here were testable evidence of gods and the evidence failed to be disproved, then you’d be on to something.

But that’s not how the burden of proof works. If you say there are gods then it’s on you to provide sufficient evidence. I’m sure you know that’s how it works.

abff

one world order wrote: »

As in your own personal suppression of the existence of God?

I can't suppress something that doesn't exist.

endacl

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

You can't really be this naive.

In the context of the post I responded to?

Absolutely. If a person in the modern era were never exposed to the idea of a divine creator, but were aware of the complexity of the universe, and of the trajectory of the course of knowledge and discovery that led to current understanding of that complexity, the idea of the existence, let alone a necessity for god(s), would at best seem twee and pointless.

Midster wrote: »

Actually you couldn’t be more wrong, somebody in the very earliest part of human history began worship.

Which made perfect sense. In the very earliest part of human history.

one world order

abff wrote: »

I can't suppress something that doesn't exist.

You just have:(