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Science vs religion

  • 26-08-2019 2:00pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭ Midster


    Hi there, I’m not sure if there is a similar thread to this one.
    My question is, what with the discoveries of quantum science, alternate universes, the smallest of atoms being proven to have the ability to be in more than one place at any one time, string theory, worm holes, etc. I mean the subject is huge.
    Does this discount any possibility of there being a god of any kind anywhere?
    I personally am a big follower of science of all types, but I am also a believer in a god of some description.
    I wondered what opinions others might have on the subject


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,277 ✭✭✭✭ Ariana Squeaking Supper


    Surely it makes sense that with all the complexity we are finding in the universe that we have gone beyond the idea of a random bang theory.
    It points to a Creator and if it was created, then so were we.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 88,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    There's plenty of wiggle room in quantum mechanics to satisfy both sides.

    And there's a long history of scientific discoveries by members of the clergy.


    The anthropic principle could be viewed as
    - the universe only exists because we are here to observe it.
    - the universe appears fine tuned for life because if it wasn't we couldn't be here to see it.



    Here's another theory :)

    In the beginning the Universe was created.

    This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded
    as a bad move.

    Many races believe that it was created by some sort of God,
    though the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI believe that the
    entire Universe was in fact sneezed out of the nose of a being
    called the Great Green Arkleseizure.

    The Jatravartids, who live in perpetual fear of the time they
    call The Coming of The Great White Handkerchief, are small blue
    creatures with more than fifty arms each, who are therefore
    unique in being the only race in history to have invented the
    aerosol deodorant before the wheel.

    However, the Great Green Arkleseizure Theory is not widely
    accepted outside Viltvodle VI and so, the Universe being the
    puzzling place it is, other explanations are constantly being
    sought."


    - Douglas Adams


  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭ Midster



    In the beginning the Universe was created.

    This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded
    as a bad move.

    Many races believe that it was created by some sort of God,
    though the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI believe that the
    entire Universe was in fact sneezed out of the nose of a being
    called the Great Green Arkleseizure.

    The Jatravartids, who live in perpetual fear of the time they
    call The Coming of The Great White Handkerchief, are small blue
    creatures with more than fifty arms each, who are therefore
    unique in being the only race in history to have invented the
    aerosol deodorant before the wheel.

    However, the Great Green Arkleseizure Theory is not widely
    accepted outside Viltvodle VI and so, the Universe being the
    puzzling place it is, other explanations are constantly being
    sought."


    - Douglas Adams

    The second bit sounds like something from the first hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,269 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    Surely it makes sense that with all the complexity we are finding in the universe that we have gone beyond the idea of a random bang theory.
    It points to a Creator and if it was created, then so were we.

    If you look at it like that then the game is rigged so god wins. He old “god of he gaps “ argument. Where you know some things with gaps. Whenever you find out something’s new, it creates a gap on each side for god to hide in.

    I would have just thought it’s irrelevant to the question of gods. If you want to believe, then believe. But leave science to deal with reality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭ Midster


    it’s a tricky one alright. So much to think about in the world of quantum science, multi verses, atoms being in more than one place at any one time, things behaving differently one way if you observe them to another way if you don’t, even recording gear or cameras have an effect on experiment, it’s an extremely confusing subject, even people trying to study it get confused by it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,269 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    Midster wrote: »
    it’s a tricky one alright. So much to think about in the world of quantum science, multi verses, atoms being in more than one place at any one time, things behaving differently one way if you observe them to another way if you don’t, even recording gear or cameras have an effect on experiment, it’s an extremely confusing subject, even people trying to study it get confused by it.

    There’s plenty to think about alright but why do you think it points to gods? I don’t see how you get to gods unless you employ the logic that if we don’t currently understand something then it’s evidence for gods.

    Is there any positive evidence for gods in quantum science?


  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭ Midster


    The simple answer is no. But also it’s fare to say that for as long as there are things that we cannot understand or explain, that it leaves the door open to there being one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,269 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    Midster wrote: »
    The simple answer is no. But also it’s fare to say that for as long as there are things that we cannot understand or explain, that it leaves the door open to there being one.

    Sure. It leaves the door open to there being anything until we understand it, if we understand it. Like everything in the past, god is imagined as a cause and every time people figure out how that thing works, the answer has never been gods.

    You brought up science as a vehicle to propose god as the answer. God of the gaps lives in the things we don't understand. Every time we find out something new, the God is chased out of that gap and it's filled with knowledge.

    Lightening used to be gods, earthquakes used to be gods, now you're proposing quantum gods. It's an old story that's been retold with new gaps in knowledge and it doesn't end well for the gods.

    I'll just wait until there's evidence of gods anywhere. What will you do?


  • Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭ one world order


    Science is pointing in the direction of a creator. It's not possible to create everything out of nothing. At present the evil that control this world at the top are trying to find the God particle by opening the door to the other dimension in CERN, a 27km tunnel spanning Switzerland and France.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭ Eire Go Brach


    Science is pointing in the direction of a creator. It's not possible to create everything out of nothing.

    Who created the creator? If he created stuff from
    nothing?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭ one world order


    Who created the creator? If he created stuff from
    nothing?

    God has always existed. Time is linked to matter and space. As God created the universe he is therefore outside of time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,120 ✭✭✭✭ NIMAN


    Alternate universes have been discovered?

    First I heard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,269 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    God has always existed. Time is linked to matter and space. As God created the universe he is therefore outside of time.

    Sounds like you’ve got it all sorted. No need to try to understand reality when you already know things like this based on absolutely no evidence.

    Mucking around with evidence is only for the ignorant and the those who don’t already know everything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭ jaxxx


    Why does God need to be a he? Why does there have to be a single God? Why is orange the new black? These are,, ,, ,, questions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭ Eire Go Brach


    God has always existed. Time is linked to matter and space. As God created the universe he is therefore outside of time.
    Chicken and Egg. You have been watching Star Trek. Your a fan of Q.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,470 ✭✭✭ Cork_exile


    Why does god need a spaceship?

    01001110 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 00100000 01000111 01101111 01101110 01101110 01100001 00100000 01000111 01101001 01110110 01100101 00100000 01011001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01010101 01110000



  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭ Midster


    I'll just wait until there's evidence of gods anywhere. What will you do?

    I completely agree, science has done a pretty good job through the years of throwing out god theories. I grew up in a world were almost everything god had already been thrown out by science.
    Water is just water, no mater how many times you bless it.
    Stone is stone

    Everything is just exactly what it looks and feels like and nothing more.

    I first became interested in quantum science because it challenged that, it tells us that things at the tiniest of scales are not always as they seem, and not always straight forward.

    Why should certain things behave differently if you watch it to if you don’t?

    And if there are so many multiverses, and tiny atoms can be in more than one place at any one time, are they jumping between universes, and if so are the universes linked together somehow, and if they are, are all of the multiverses combined part of something even bigger.

    Does the universe we see only exist because living beings are here to observe it, and if that’s true, what happens when every star is dead and after every living being dead, would the universe shink down to nothing in less than a second and perform another expansion.

    It might sound silly to some, but I believe the quantum science subject has the very best chance of uncovering a deeper meaning to everything.

    Maybe all this time we have been searching for god in the clouds, and in space we were looking in the wrong place, and now we have the tech, we are finding tiny clues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭ one world order


    Sounds like you’ve got it all sorted. No need to try to understand reality when you already know things like this based on absolutely no evidence.

    Mucking around with evidence is only for the ignorant and the those who don’t already know everything.

    If you have alternative evidence then feel free to share. We already have God's message in the bible that mentions the circle of the earth and God hangs earth on nothing. This was 2,000 years ago ever before it was proven the earth was round or it hangs in space.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,269 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    Midster wrote: »
    I completely agree, science has done a pretty good job through the years of throwing out god theories. I grew up in a world were almost everything god had already been thrown out by science.
    Water is just water, no mater how many times you bless it.
    Stone is stone

    Everything is just exactly what it looks and feels like and nothing more.

    I first became interested in quantum science because it challenged that, it tells us that things at the tiniest of scales are not always as they seem, and not always straight forward.

    Why should certain things behave differently if you watch it to if you don’t?

    And if there are so many multiverses, and tiny atoms can be in more than one place at any one time, are they jumping between universes, and if so are the universes linked together somehow, and if they are, are all of the multiverses combined part of something even bigger.

    Does the universe we see only exist because living beings are here to observe it, and if that’s true, what happens when every star is dead and after every living being dead, would the universe shink down to nothing in less than a second and perform another expansion.

    It might sound silly to some, but I believe the quantum science subject has the very best chance of uncovering a deeper meaning to everything.

    Maybe all this time we have been searching for god in the clouds, and in space we were looking in the wrong place, and now we have the tech, we are finding tiny clues.

    I think quantum science is only different from the other places god has been pushed out of because we don’t understand it yet. It’s a hiding place for god, for now.

    All those things are fascinating questions. And as with everything else, the answer is probably much more interesting than “god did it using magic”.

    You’re giving gods the benefit of the doubt that they exist. In science the benefit of the doubt is reserved for things that have a lot of evidence and have evaded being disproved. Gods are nowhere near that. So why bring them into it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,269 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    If you have alternative evidence then feel free to share. We already have God's message in the bible that mentions the circle of the earth and God hangs earth on nothing. This was 2,000 years ago ever before it was proven the earth was round or it hangs in space.

    Oh. Well in that case, you got me. All the gods with books win. End of discussion, I suppose.

    Like I said, looking for evidence is probably only really for people who don’t know everything already. I’ll just keep waiting for evidence of what’s real.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭ nthclare


    If you're going to debate the God thing, you've a lot of research and understanding as to what God the non believer doesn't believe in.
    An absolute nightmare.

    Atheists no 1 believes that you believe in a sky fairy or a man who hears, see's and judge's your every decision, thought and action...
    He's the dangerous bastard to debate because he's already made up his mind without asking you what type of God do you believe in.
    He believes that you believe in a bearded guy you'd see in a cartoon, he's no respect for you whatsoever. You're just a delusional fool nothing more.

    Then you've the understanding Atheist who's been a believer and made up his own mind, but he can empathize with you and is willing to listen, but won't go back to religion.

    Then you've the real bitter bastard atheist who actually thinks he's a God, he hates the church, goes around telling everyone he's an atheist and has loads of buzz words to use against your beliefs.

    Then you've the atheist who's already made up his mind and couldn't be bothered immersing themselves in a pointless arguement.
    He just gets on with it and totally detached from religion and metaphysical subjects.

    You've the agnostic who's neither an atheist or a believer.
    He's willing to do more research than atheist no 1 and tries to understand why some people believe in God, then sits back and takes it or leaves it.
    Has the odd debate.

    Then you've the likes of the Atheist who wants to be the king of the atheists, out there fighting a pointless cause.
    Wearing a red t-shirt and loves the sound of his own voice.
    Can be seen frequently in cities stopping by guys trying to promote their religion and just being a knob.

    You've the new atheist who breathlessly bounces around telling everyone they're an atheist, bounced out of the closest....

    There's similar people who are religious, obsessed, narcissistic, and hypocrites.

    Although it has to be said there's a lot of money to be made in religion, telling people fables and tall stories.
    Those Christian pastor's in America make an absolute fortune our of people's good intentions.

    Waiting for the WTF response ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,269 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    nthclare wrote: »
    If you're going to debate the God thing, you've a lot of research and understanding as to what God the non believer doesn't believe in.
    An absolute nightmare.

    Why bother going to a pop science forum to discuss gods? The burden of proof is on anyone who claims gods exist. They don’t have to meet that burden in the religious forums but surely they understand that they will need to have some good evidence in a science forum.

    Shoehorning gods onto things we don’t understand is as old as things we don’t understand. Not understanding things isn’t evidence for gods, though some people mistake it for evidence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 631 ✭✭✭ PMU


    Science is pointing in the direction of a creator. It's not possible to create everything out of nothing. At present the evil that control this world at the top are trying to find the God particle by opening the door to the other dimension in CERN, a 27km tunnel spanning Switzerland and France.
    really?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭ nthclare


    Why bother going to a pop science forum to discuss gods? The burden of proof is on anyone who claims gods exist. They don’t have to meet that burden in the religious forums but surely they understand that they will need to have some good evidence in a science forum.

    Shoehorning gods onto things we don’t understand is as old as things we don’t understand. Not understanding things isn’t evidence for gods, though some people mistake it for evidence.

    Absolutely I totally agree with you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭ Midster


    All I’m saying is that the reality that science presented to us before quantum was always very dependable, with strict laws governing everything from, size, weight, speed, formation etc etc. that type of science explains very well what everything is and what it’s made of.

    But quantum explains everything else.

    Is is the flexible non reality that the previous cold hard reality sits on.

    It’s the place we’re literally everything comes into question.

    And it gives reality itself almost a form of intelligence all of its own

    Now if there is a god, personally I really don’t know. But if there is one at all ever, it’s going to be there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,269 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    Midster wrote: »
    All I’m saying is that the reality that science presented to us before quantum was always very dependable, with strict laws governing everything from, size, weight, speed, formation etc etc. that type of science explains very well what everything is and what it’s made of.

    But quantum explains everything else.

    Is is the flexible non reality that the previous cold hard reality sits on.

    It’s the place we’re literally everything comes into question.

    And it gives reality itself almost a form of intelligence all of its own

    Now if there is a god, personally I really don’t know. But if there is one at all ever, it’s going to be there.

    Disagree that everything before quantum was “always very dependable, with strict laws governing everything from, size, weight, speed, formation etc etc.” It was dependable AFTER people figured out how they work, through testing, hard graft and a lot more failure than success. Now it’s easy to look back and say everything is dependable.

    Do you think things were obviously governed by laws before we understood the laws?

    You’re creating a space for god because we don’t know how it works yet. It’s not the last hiding pace for gods because if we figure out how quantum things work, then we’ll still have more unknown things, and god will be given those areas to hide until we get to understand how they work.

    You’re treating quantum like it’s actually different from everything we didn’t understand in the past. It isn’t. Lightning was too weird to explain without gods. Weather wa too weird to explain without gods, metallurgy was too weird to explain without gods. Then we explained then and gods had to find another place to live.

    Quantum is just unexplained like all the other things we can’t explain yet. And what about all the things we don’t even know about yet? Gods must be eyeing them is as hiding places for the future.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,071 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Black Swan


    Surely it makes sense that with all the complexity we are finding in the universe that we have gone beyond the idea of a random bang theory.
    Scientific theories continue to emerge, evolve (see Wallace's Wheel of Science), and in some cases have no longer been supported by the data. They are theories, or educated guesses, and to the extent that they are falsifiable, they remain within the scientific domain (see Karl Popper). Furthermore, the scientific method only suggests, provided that the preponderance of data supports such suggestions.
    It points to a Creator and if it was created, then so were we.
    This a position of faith, not science.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭ joe40


    Black Swan wrote: »
    Scientific theories continue to emerge, evolve (see Wallace's Wheel of Science), and in some cases have no longer been supported by the data. They are theories, or educated guesses, and to the extent that they are falsifiable, they remain within the scientific domain (see Karl Popper). Furthermore, the scientific method only suggests, provided that the preponderance of data supports such suggestions.
    This a position of faith, not science.

    That is a good answer. There isn't really any science vs. religion debate because they do not cover the same ground.
    Science is a very particular way of understanding the world/universe around us based on the idea of a testable hypothesis.
    This is the strength of science but also its constraint, Science must work within set parameters.
    Sometimes there is a time gap between scientific theories and experimental evidence, but the search for verifiable evidence is always the ultimate pursuit of science.

    Religion, like philosophy, asks questions but does not require the same level of verifiable evidence. That leaves it more open.
    In fact, Religion often demands belief, in the absence of proof. Faith is more valued than proof.

    In terms of the quantum theories there are is evidence, but still a lack in some areas. The theories are still accepted because the search for more evidence is ongoing, and new theories will be adopted in the event of new evidence.

    For many people Religion and science can co-exist, they don't neutralise each other. Religion for religious people does not require proof or even evidence. Science always does.


  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭ Midster


    Ok so here is my question:

    With our galaxy being the jaw dropping size that it is.
    The universe our galaxy moves through trillion times of more massive than that.
    And the space outside of our universe being of unmeasurable size.
    And if all of the multiverses including our own are to make our own planet look like nothing more than an atom, not visible to the naked eye, and only visible under extreme magnification.

    If that is true so far

    If god created everything and is therefore of same size or bigger (possibly much bigger) then how would anyone ever expect to be able to prove definitively, that he exists at all.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,269 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    Midster wrote: »
    Ok so here is my question:

    With our galaxy being the jaw dropping size that it is.
    The universe our galaxy moves through trillion times of more massive than that.
    And the space outside of our universe being of unmeasurable size.
    And if all of the multiverses including our own are to make our own planet look like nothing more than an atom, not visible to the naked eye, and only visible under extreme magnification.

    If that is true so far

    If god created everything and is therefore of same size or bigger (possibly much bigger) then how would anyone ever expect to be able to prove definitively, that he exists at all.

    God is the size of the universe? How would you know that god has a size at all?

    I don’t expect it to be “proven definitively”. I don’t even expect believers to propose falsifiable gods. But like everything else, I’ll reserve judgment until there’s evidence. No evidence, no consideration beyond speculation. Simple as that.


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