rsa supporting e-scooters

aldark · 28-08-2019 2:46pm #1

From the Irish Times today, the RSA have commissioned a report to support the use of escooters.

"The report said e-scooters could even help the State hit its targets for the reduction of greenhouse emissions.

It is clear that they have potential to reduce traffic congestion, improve air quality, and promote active travel if they are used in the right ways in place of less sustainable modes of transport such as the private motor vehicle,”

Much like bikes, no?

e-scooters are great, but unleashing 1000's of them on our crappy infrastructure? Kind of makes me feel how motorists must feel about cyclists!

marvin80 · 28-08-2019 2:50pm

Bikes, e-bikes and e-scooters - if they get more cars off the road I see it as a good thing.

"It is clear that they have potential to reduce traffic congestion, improve air quality, and promote active travel"

Chips Lovell · 28-08-2019 2:54pm

They've already been unleashed. This is more about legalising, licensing and regulating them. At the moment, none of them are really legal.

Macy0161 · 28-08-2019 2:57pm

Don't really have an issue with them. I found then not that visible coming from behind in the cycle lane as no real movement, but like with ninja cyclists, I still saw them.

I'd say it'll shine a light (no pun intended after my last comment!) on the infrastructure we have though - a bump/ pothole that's an irritant on a bike, maybe more of an issue to the small wheels?

Raam · 28-08-2019 3:04pm

I'm totally going to get one when they are properly legal.

km991148 · 28-08-2019 3:10pm

The only issue I have - is the same with other road users - a lot of people do stupid things.

Infrastructure and education improvements all round would help everyone's commute.

i.e. better traffic light timings, better facilities, teaching people that its not a free for all at every single junction etc - but I don't see this magical utopia happening!

Raam · 28-08-2019 3:14pm

km991148 wrote: »

The only issue I have - is the same with other road users - a lot of people do stupid things.

Infrastructure and education improvements all round would help everyone's commute.

i.e. better traffic light timings, better facilities, teaching people that its not a free for all at every single junction etc - but I don't see this magical utopia happening!

I know that I do stupid things regardless of my mode of transport.

dastardly00 · 28-08-2019 3:14pm

What have they got to do with bicycles/cycling?

km991148 · 28-08-2019 3:23pm

Raam wrote: »

I know that I do stupid things regardless of my mode of transport.

oh - absolutely! But generally I try not to - or at least try not to do things to piss off others!

If I am going slow on a bike because I am lazy/tired/carrying home something stupid on the handlebars etc, I wave people past or pull over. I dont fight my way to the front of all the traffic and then hold everyone up when I inevitably cant get up to the same speed (for example)

Or try and pass people inches from them (on that I see a lot of scooters doing (but others too).

Now I fully accept I am biased as fu(k about my own actions and there is a ton of stuff I do that annoys others...

Del2005 · 28-08-2019 3:28pm

Macy0161 wrote: »

I'd say it'll shine a light (no pun intended after my last comment!) on the infrastructure we have though - a bump/ pothole that's an irritant on a bike, maybe more of an issue to the small wheels?

Even if the roads are perfectly smooth a branch or bit of rubbish can cause issues for them and problems for everyone else.

Anus Von Skidmark · 28-08-2019 3:30pm

Those bloody scooters are a scourge in the bike lanes around Dublin! They seem to be far too slow to keep up with cycling speeds, and just block the place up in spots where the cycle lanes don't give you enough room to overtake.

If they're for use on roads rather than just scooting along the footpath, I think they should have to be capable of higher speeds.

average_runner · 28-08-2019 3:35pm

Anus Von Skidmark wrote: »

Those bloody scooters are a scourge in the bike lanes around Dublin! They seem to be far too slow to keep up with cycling speeds, and just block the place up in spots where the cycle lanes don't give you enough room to overtake.

If they're for use on roads rather than just scooting along the footpath, I think they should have to be capable of higher speeds.

They go up to 30k, which is the speed limit around the city in most spots, so that's grand.

Tigerandahalf · 28-08-2019 3:41pm

These scooters are pretty common in cities in Europe. You would see a lot of people in business attire commuting on them. It seems only a matter of time with the whole climate thing before they appear here. They would need a clean surface, perhaps raised above the road or a separate segregated lane.

steamsey · 28-08-2019 3:52pm

Anus Von Skidmark wrote: »

Those bloody scooters are a scourge in the bike lanes around Dublin! They seem to be far too slow to keep up with cycling speeds, and just block the place up in spots where the cycle lanes don't give you enough room to overtake.

If they're for use on roads rather than just scooting along the footpath, I think they should have to be capable of higher speeds.

While I don't believe they are a scourge, I do agree that they are not fast enough. They do take up space in cycle lanes and make it hard for cyclists to overtake.

They have no indicators and I mentioned elsewhere that might be risky to expect them to take a hand off the bars to hand indicate - small wheels, bad cycles lanes - could wobble into a crash easily I'd say but I've never been on one for any length of time. I've never seen one go 30kmph - most of the ones I meet seem to be doing 20 or so. 30 would have them overtaking most commuting cyclists - maybe that's the way it should go.

Footpaths should be left for those on foot.

ExoPolitic · 28-08-2019 3:58pm

Actually they're ideal last mile transportation, you can bring them on the train or bus and then use them at the end of the journey, they can be brought inside in most places of work too... Incredible we haven't legalised them considering the congestion in most of our main cities and towns.

Especially since most of them fold up!

Anus Von Skidmark · 28-08-2019 4:25pm

average_runner wrote: »

They go up to 30k, which is the speed limit around the city in most spots, so that's grand.

The ones I see going around Dublin aren't going anywhere near 30Kph - I don't think I've ever seen one keeping pace with bike traffic.

ted1 · 28-08-2019 4:28pm

marvin80 wrote: »

Bikes, e-bikes and e-scooters - if they get more cars off the road I see it as a good thing.

"It is clear that they have potential to reduce traffic congestion, improve air quality, and promote active travel"

I dint believe e scooters are getting drivers off the road. Maybe out of public transport.

Macy0161 · 28-08-2019 4:31pm

ted1 wrote: »

I dint believe e scooters are getting drivers off the road. Maybe out of public transport.

Maybe, but if that's out of a capacity bus or dart, that may free up space for someone else.

The attraction I see is that it's zero effort - so you can do it in your work clothes (even under waterproofs), and then pick up your scooter and leave it beside your desk/ at the back of the meeting. I'd be tempted for when I have to go across town for meetings, as I'd rather that than a taxi, which I figure is one less car journey.

cruizer101 · 28-08-2019 4:35pm

ted1 wrote: »

I dint believe e scooters are getting drivers off the road. Maybe out of public transport.

I think they would. Think about someone who can get a train that leaves them over 30 min walk from their work, thats getting too much so chances are the person will drive.
But if they had option of e-scooter they could get the train and then use the scooter for the last bit.

Someone isn't going to use it to replace going on a bus or train for any decent distance, but for short distances that they would have had to walk they are ideal.

fat bloke · 28-08-2019 4:58pm

We can't all be a scourge. I thought that was bikes? I suppose bikes not in the bike lane are a scourge, so escooters IN the bike lanes can also be a scourge therefore

cletus · 28-08-2019 5:10pm

Anus Von Skidmark wrote: »

Those bloody scooters are a scourge in the bike lanes around Dublin! They seem to be far too slow to keep up with cycling speeds, and just block the place up in spots where the cycle lanes don't give you enough room to overtake.

If they're for use on roads rather than just scooting along the footpath, I think they should have to be capable of higher speeds.

Is there a minimum speed limit on cycle lanes?

SteM · 28-08-2019 5:19pm

They won't get people out of cars, only the stick will do that.

They seem to be a great last mile solution though. Before now someone might have used a Dublin Bike to get from thir bus stop to near their office, now they'll use a scooter to go straight to their door. Not sure how that solves congestion or helps the environment as some are suggesting though.

italodisco · 28-08-2019 5:22pm

I have one , not the xiaomi 365 you see everywhere though.

Mine hits 55 km per hour mind you it cost me 1400 euro !!

I'll have a vid up at some stage with me bombing along on it lol

Hrududu · 28-08-2019 5:45pm

Anus Von Skidmark wrote: »

The ones I see going around Dublin aren't going anywhere near 30Kph - I don't think I've ever seen one keeping pace with bike traffic.

It probably depends on the scooter. I see several every day on my commute and all of them are faster than the bikes around them.

ED E · 28-08-2019 6:18pm

italodisco wrote: »

I have one , not the xiaomi 365 you see everywhere though.

Mine hits 55 km per hour mind you it cost me 1400 euro !!

I'll have a vid up at some stage with me bombing along on it lol

If you're not just trolling you're asking to get a driving without insurance conviction and you'd deserve it.

Searchers · 28-08-2019 7:01pm

Do "they" pay road tax?

Duckjob · 28-08-2019 7:18pm

With a potential rapid take up of a this new mode of transport on the horizon now is the time for the government to get serious and start de allocating space from cars in a big way and allocating that space to all of the greener travel modes.

At the moment they seem to be clinging on to the tired old notion that they can only make changes that don't impact car drivers, when that should in fact be a desired effect.

CantGetNoSleep · 28-08-2019 8:30pm

I've used Lime or Bird rental e-scooters for three or four months. They cost about 1€ to unlock then 10 or 15¢ per minute.

Works out quite cheaply but I do think most people using them were doing so instead of either public transport or walking. Capacity and congestion on public transport is of course an issue everywhere but nowhere near as close as traffic congestion. They might be part of a solution of a policy showing people that it was much quicker and cheaper to take public transport e.g. scooter train scooter taking less time than a car and being cheaper.

Personally I find them a bit dodgy safety wise. Going along at 28kmh standing straight is much faster than it seems but very easy to lose control. I wouldn't use them on open roads anymore for that reason and see much more prospects in shared (both Dublin bikes type and free standing Uber Jump) or folding ebikes. 28kmh on a heavy bike just feels so much more natural and safe to me than standing on a scooter, and the effort required is minimal.

From a pure sustainability standpoint, I'd love to know how long the average shared scooter survives on the streets. I'm sure it could be measured in weeks

is_that_so · 28-08-2019 8:35pm

Duckjob wrote: »

With a potential rapid take up of a this new mode of transport on the horizon now is the time for the government to get serious and start de allocating space from cars in a big way and allocating that space to all of the greener travel modes.

At the moment they seem to be clinging on to the tired old notion that they can only make changes that don't impact car drivers, when that should in fact be a desired effect.

You can't take space away until there is somewhere for those people to go i.e. public transport plan comes first. Electric cars are greener modes of transport anyway!

Duckjob · 28-08-2019 9:00pm

is_that_so wrote: »

You can't take space away until there is somewhere for those people to go i.e. public transport plan comes first. Electric cars are greener modes of transport anyway!

Of course you can. Its a matter of tipping the balance in favour of active transport. People need a bit of firm encouragement because frankly some of them need to be peeled out of their cars.

Your objection is like trying to put the cart before the horse. We can't implement a decent public transport or decent walking/cycling space etc while cars are given the lions share of space in our cities. With the reallocated from cars we can accomodate far better travel and public transport infra.

Electric cars will ease local air pollution somewhat, but they're no zero help to easing the congestion that's crippling our cities.

magicbastarder · 28-08-2019 10:26pm

dastardly00 wrote: »

What have they got to do with bicycles/cycling?

on the face of it, not much. however, much of the facilities/demands/etc. in relation to providing infrastructure are possibly not much difference to cycling, i guess.

it's possible that this move from the RSA could be good for cyclists. though i am sceptical that (so far) scooters have made any dent in the number of cars on the road. i'm not aware of any surveys of scooter usage so far in ireland which might indicate whether they're used to displace cars; i wouldn't be surprised to learn that they fill a gap in a commute where the walk would be too long for some people, but the cycle would be too short.

DaveyDave · 28-08-2019 10:54pm

I've seen quite a few around recently but they seem to be pretty slow. Definitely not 25-30kph.

Don't see an issue with them as long as the person using them isn't a twat. Easier to store and move around than an ebike and a fraction of the cost.

Seat sell one for €500, could probably get it thrown in for free or massively discounted with a new car. Keep it in the boot, finish the journey by scooter.

28-08-2019 11:32pm

My main concern about these is infrastructure. They've f all bike lanes in my part of the country and really not an issue for me I'm more than happy to ride the road but I'd say 70% of cyclists here ride the footpath. I'd say the chances of provincial towns getting anything outside of the token lanes to nowhere with new developments is not happening so where do the scooters go ?

There are 2 lads I see on them locally and they have the routine down of riding the footpath and hopping off to pass people or stopping for on comers.

These towns would be of a size were traversing them one side to the to the other would be ideal by e scooter 3 or 4km distance but how many would be happy to scoot the road?

Also the one's I've seen are nowhere close to 30kmph, thats 5 times average walking pace and at best they were doing maybe 15. If I was using one there are a few roads I'd not be happy doing 30kmph on one, instant trip to the hospital if when it goes wrong because of the surface.

ted1 · 28-08-2019 11:41pm

dastardly00 wrote: »

What have they got to do with bicycles/cycling?

They’ve 2 wheels and use the same limited space

TheChizler · 28-08-2019 11:50pm

Used Lime ones a couple of times in Lisbon on cobblestone streets and it was grand, a bit jarring but grand. On a smooth surface it would max out at 23.5 km/h according to the speedo, and it was a sudden loss of acceleration so that was due to a built in speed limiter.

Edit: maybe not cobblestone but the small individual cube style surface you see all over Europe.

tomasrojo · 29-08-2019 12:09am

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

Personally I find them a bit dodgy safety wise. Going along at 28kmh standing straight is much faster than it seems but very easy to lose control. I wouldn't use them on open roads anymore for that reason and see much more prospects in shared (both Dublin bikes type and free standing Uber Jump) or folding ebikes. 28kmh on a heavy bike just feels so much more natural and safe to me than standing on a scooter, and the effort required is minimal.

In theory, they seem much less stable than a bike, given the smaller wheels and very high and very forward centre of gravity.

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

From a pure sustainability standpoint, I'd love to know how long the average shared scooter survives on the streets. I'm sure it could be measured in weeks

There was some discussion recently in the media of them working out as more CO2-equivalent-emitting than public transport or a small step-through motorbike(*).

(*) I guess "moped" or "scooter" is what people would normally say here, but "mopeds" are really something else, and we're now calling these things with small wheels scooters too.

tomasrojo · 29-08-2019 12:12am

It's fascinating to see scooters take up the position in the transport ecosystem that Segways were always hyped up for.

eeeee · 29-08-2019 7:28am

This is excellent news. I see then all the time, some I know do up to 8k into town and out.
As they become more common, they'll get people out of cars, they're already getting people of PT.

I see and ride by them every day on my 40k commute, never had a bother with them. You get arseholes in every form of transport, there's nothing you can do about that.
But this is an excellent step forward, finally.

I'd love to get one, but I think they're quite environmentally heavy in their production and materials, like electric cars. And pricey.
I'd love a go on one!

Moflojo · 29-08-2019 8:00am

Be very wary of the RSA's approach to e-scooters. They appear to be trying to lobby for the wearing of PPE (helmets & hi-vis) as a condition for using e-scooters.

This, at the very least, would muddy the waters around the legality of wearing helmets and hi-vis while cycling, and e-scooters could also be used as a sort of Trojan horse by the RSA to get some kind of legislative foothold on mandatory helmets and hi-vis (their wet dream).

The RSA is fundamentally a victim-blaming organisation when it comes to anyone who doesn't use a car, so watch out.

1bryan · 29-08-2019 8:11am

Moflojo wrote: »

Be very wary of the RSA's approach to e-scooters. They appear to be trying to lobby for the wearing of PPE (helmets & hi-vis) as a condition for using e-scooters.

This, at the very least, would muddy the waters around the legality of wearing helmets and hi-vis while cycling, and e-scooters could also be used as a sort of Trojan horse by the RSA to get some kind of legislative foothold on mandatory helmets and hi-vis (their wet dream).

not necessarily. What's interesting for me about this is what our experiences of e-scooters will be when we enter the dark winter months. A mounted light on the front will be at about waist height, which is fine. A rear mounted light will be about 3 inches from the ground, which isn't fine. I'm assuming that's why they're touting mandatory hi-viz wearing. Comparing visibility of e-scooters with bicycles is not comparing like with like.

Personally I'd rather these things weren't on the road, and I'd like to see more enforcement while they're illegal. However, were they made legal, I'm sure we'll all adapt to their presence in the cycle lanes. I've had bad experiences with some users, but that's no different to any other form of transport. And, I'm guessing they have limited enough range? Those of us with a >10km commute to the city won't encounter too many until the final kms of our journey. I haven't seen too many outside of the city, as of yet, anyway.

Macy0161 · 29-08-2019 9:45am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i wouldn't be surprised to learn that they fill a gap in a commute where the walk would be too long for some people, but the cycle would be too short.

And also where our lack of secure bicycle parking facilities is an issue, it isn't for a scooter.

Explosive_Cornflake · 29-08-2019 10:04am

average_runner wrote: »

They go up to 30k, which is the speed limit around the city in most spots, so that's grand.

Speed limit for motorized vehicles. I believe it doesn't apply to self propelled

steamsey · 29-08-2019 10:29am

1bryan wrote: »

not necessarily. What's interesting for me about this is what our experiences of e-scooters will be when we enter the dark winter months. A mounted light on the front will be at about waist height, which is fine. A rear mounted light will be about 3 inches from the ground, which isn't fine. I'm assuming that's why they're touting mandatory hi-viz wearing. Comparing visibility of e-scooters with bicycles is not comparing like with like.

Personally I'd rather these things weren't on the road, and I'd like to see more enforcement while they're illegal. However, were they made legal, I'm sure we'll all adapt to their presence in the cycle lanes. I've had bad experiences with some users, but that's no different to any other form of transport. And, I'm guessing they have limited enough range? Those of us with a >10km commute to the city won't encounter too many until the final kms of our journey. I haven't seen too many outside of the city, as of yet, anyway.

On lights - I suppose you could attach a rear light to your person / your bag.

Will be interesting to see how many are being used daily over the dark winter months. I can't get past the wheel size - how stable can they be if you hit a bad patch of road / debris. Can you swerve without wobbling? Any e-scooter commuters here that have a view?

I'm in favour of them generally, not going to get one, but anything that gives people back time that's saved from not sitting in a car, on a bus etc is a positive step in my view. Great opportunity to do something here and free up some of the city centre gridlock and get people out in the fresh air.

average_runner · 29-08-2019 10:44am

Anus Von Skidmark wrote: »

The ones I see going around Dublin aren't going anywhere near 30Kph - I don't think I've ever seen one keeping pace with bike traffic.

They don't have to go at the speed limit when the limit is 30k. Cars around Dublin don't keep up with bike traffic either.

average_runner · 29-08-2019 10:44am

Explosive_Cornflake wrote: »

Speed limit for motorized vehicles. I believe it doesn't apply to self propelled

But the scooters are motorized, hence my point

average_runner · 29-08-2019 10:46am

Macy0161 wrote: »

And also where our lack of secure bicycle parking facilities is an issue, it isn't for a scooter.

Yep that is the big advantage of scooters, can bring them into the office and charge them at your desk!

DaveyDave · 29-08-2019 10:50am

Explosive_Cornflake wrote: »

Speed limit for motorized vehicles. I believe it doesn't apply to self propelled

All the ones I've seen are motorised, unless there's a grey area where self propelled means kicking off to start.

what_traffic · 29-08-2019 11:05am

Moflojo wrote: »

Be very wary of the RSA's approach to e-scooters. They appear to be trying to lobby for the wearing of PPE (helmets & hi-vis) as a condition for using e-scooters.

This, at the very least, would muddy the waters around the legality of wearing helmets and hi-vis while cycling, and e-scooters could also be used as a sort of Trojan horse by the RSA to get some kind of legislative foothold on mandatory helmets and hi-vis (their wet dream).

The RSA is fundamentally a victim-blaming organisation when it comes to anyone who doesn't use a car, so watch out.

Already have.
Moya Murdock stated this on RTE Radio 1 yesterday afternoon. The Drivetime show
https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/11081131
from 11min25seconds to 18min45seconds

Explosive_Cornflake · 29-08-2019 11:43am

average_runner wrote: »

But the scooters are motorized, hence my point

I took it up wrong. My point was that it doesn't apply to cycling.
but I see i misread your post.
You are correct of course.

magicbastarder · 29-08-2019 12:18pm

https://twitter.com/DublinVelo2019/status/1166970294155829248

beauf · 29-08-2019 12:33pm

what_traffic wrote: »

Already have.
Moya Murdock stated this on RTE Radio 1 yesterday afternoon. The Drivetime show
https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/11081131
from 11min25seconds to 18min45seconds

I listened to this, and thought a couple of things were off. One was that cyclist over taking over cyclists was an issue...? I assume this was either a slip or the mindset of keeping cyclist in the cycle lane and not allowed in the "car lane". There were a couple of times I thought that. But some of the points where they applied solely to eScooters were valid I though.

Moflojo wrote: »

Be very wary of the RSA's approach to e-scooters. They appear to be trying to lobby for the wearing of PPE (helmets & hi-vis) as a condition for using e-scooters.

This, at the very least, would muddy the waters around the legality of wearing helmets and hi-vis while cycling, and e-scooters could also be used as a sort of Trojan horse by the RSA to get some kind of legislative foothold on mandatory helmets and hi-vis (their wet dream).

The RSA is fundamentally a victim-blaming organisation when it comes to anyone who doesn't use a car, so watch out.

Agreed.

I get the impression they want to protect cars from everyone else, and completely opposed to any change in the status quo, where cars are not priority.
In my opinion part of that is promoting limitations to alternative forms of transport, that prevent wide spread adoption.

I could be entirely wrong, but that just the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that I get from them.

rsa supporting e-scooters

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