The glorious 12th

munsterlegend · 20-08-2019 3:47pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Motives have little or anything to do with it. Thugs will be thugs. Yes, some are brainwashed into thuggery and murder by misplaced and outdated idealistics, but no excuse, no explanation and no understanding for terrorists.

Now we hear the misguided "seeking freedom" nonsense again. The IRA was full of people who delighted in lording it over their community imposing punishment beatings, disappearances, rape and kneecapping to their hearts' desire. Many of them yearn for a return to those good old days, hence the warnings about a return to violence. We don't whitewash Bloody Sunday, we shouldn't whitewash those claiming to be "seeking freedom".

In a perfect world we’d all live without violence. In a perfect world every citizen would have basic rights and not be discriminated against. I am glad my forefathers took the brave step and ended British rule in the south of Ireland. Sometimes evil prospers when good men do nothing. We tried the home rule route. It went nowhere.

janfebmar · 20-08-2019 3:48pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody is trying to up the Nazis .

Republicans did, look at Sean Russell, who Republicans erected a statue to, the only statue to a Nazi collaborator in Europe. And who was the only head of government in the world to offer official condolences to the Germans on the death of Hitler, only weeks after the Nazi death camps were liberated (thanks partly to the British) and exposed to the world. How sick Irish republicanism was.

timthumbni · 20-08-2019 3:49pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

In a perfect world we’d all live without violence. In a perfect world every citizen would have basic rights and not be discriminated against. I am glad my forefathers took the brave step and ended British rule in the south of Ireland. Sometimes evil prospers when good men do nothing. We tried the home rule route. It went nowhere.

Extremely thinly veiled I support Ira violence post there.

munsterlegend · 20-08-2019 3:52pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Extremely thinly veiled I support Ira violence post there.

I never support innocent people being killed anywhere. The PIRA were completely wrong to attack civilians. They had a right to protect their community from a state which had abandoned them including the south and London under Unionist rule. Thankfully that rule will never return again.

janfebmar · 20-08-2019 3:55pm

timthumbni wrote: »

So why harp on about the British reaction to the nazis. The British actually fought and spilled their blood against the nazis. Many from NI included. The Irish did f all apart from your leader showing his backside to hitler, looking for a few crumbs. I really can’t believe any Irish republican would try and point score over the Second World War. It wasn’t your most heroic moment.

Correct Tim, but do not forget the brave men and women from Ireland (south of the border) who made their way to N. Ireland or England and volunteered for the UK war effort. 70,000 people, of who about 5000 died I believe.

I knew a few of the survivors. Brave decent men, we owe them so much.

timthumbni · 20-08-2019 3:58pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

I never support innocent people being killed anywhere. The PIRA were completely wrong to attack civilians. They had a right to protect their community from a state which had abandoned them including the south and London under Unionist rule. Thankfully that rule will never return again.

The problem is that republicans were always attacking civilians. Those who were police and UDR etc were still members of the local community. Shooting a man in cold blood has consequences that Irish republicans have never considered. Those scars run deep and as Hume or Mallon said has killed off any hope of a so called UI.

timthumbni · 20-08-2019 4:04pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Correct Tim, but do not forget the brave men and women from Ireland (south of the border) who made their way to N. Ireland or England and volunteered for the UK war effort. 70,000 people, of who about 5000 died I believe.

I knew a few of the survivors. Brave decent men, we owe them so much.

I would salute any man or woman, republican or otherwise who had the balls to fight Hitler.

Our world would be incredibly different if they didn’t.

(Devalera showing his arse aside)

FrancieBrady · 20-08-2019 4:11pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Our world would be incredibly different if they didn’t.

Not much different...different Empire...same **** for the oppressed.

Empire builders were pretty much the same throughout history.

James Brown · 20-08-2019 4:28pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Motives have little or anything to do with it. Thugs will be thugs. Yes, some are brainwashed into thuggery and murder by misplaced and outdated idealistics, but no excuse, no explanation and no understanding for terrorists.

Now we hear the misguided "seeking freedom" nonsense again. The IRA was full of people who delighted in lording it over their community imposing punishment beatings, disappearances, rape and kneecapping to their hearts' desire. Many of them yearn for a return to those good old days, hence the warnings about a return to violence. We don't whitewash Bloody Sunday, we shouldn't whitewash those claiming to be "seeking freedom".

Cut the crap. Take a point as it's intended for once in your career.
Motives have everything to do with it quiet obviously. We wouldn't have one side without the other and vice versa in some cases.
Your faux outrage is manufactured and misplaced purposefully.
I won't waste my time on you.

James Brown · 20-08-2019 4:32pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Republicans did, look at Sean Russell, who Republicans erected a statue to, the only statue to a Nazi collaborator in Europe. And who was the only head of government in the world to offer official condolences to the Germans on the death of Hitler, only weeks after the Nazi death camps were liberated (thanks partly to the British) and exposed to the world. How sick Irish republicanism was.

Back then given an option one might choose German over British. In retrospect, not so much.
Again, back to your comment which kicked this all off...

janfebmar wrote: »

Indeed, and nobody claimed otherwise. There was violence before the troubles too, for example the border campaign of 1958 to 1962, which was entirely the fault of Republicans too.

And as regards the violence since the gfa Francie, did you know that far more people per head of population have been killed in the Republic over the past few decades than in N Ireland.

There was such action due to the creation of the border.

munsterlegend · 20-08-2019 4:39pm

timthumbni wrote: »

The problem is that republicans were always attacking civilians. Those who were police and UDR etc were still members of the local community. Shooting a man in cold blood has consequences that Irish republicans have never considered. Those scars run deep and as Hume or Mallon said has killed off any hope of a so called UI.

I doubt Hume and Mallon when they said that envisaged the dup and sf in govt together or Brexit or Scottish independence which could be very important in what future island dynamic we may have. The Dup have alienated a lot of nationalists. People usually prefer status quo to uncertainly as Scottish vote shows but what’s happening in England is changing things.

FrancieBrady · 20-08-2019 4:44pm

munsterlegend wrote: »

I doubt Hume and Mallon when they said that envisaged the dup and sf in govt together or Brexit or Scottish independence which could be very important in what future island dynamic we may have. The Dup have alienated a lot of nationalists. People usually prefer status quo to uncertainly as Scottish vote shows but what’s happening in England is changing things.

The prospect of a UI/certainty of a poll is daily conversation now.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-ireland-is-not-ready-for-unity-but-may-have-to-take-that-step-1.3990937?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Ffintan-o-toole-we-need-to-start-asking-tough-questions-about-how-we-share-this-island-1.3990937%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2aL09eNX8rfhJJk40Fwhi0OtZVxtDJVf0vkPVvvJ8X4oK26-6Ni285lqM

munsterlegend · 20-08-2019 4:52pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The prospect of a UI/certainty of a poll is daily conversation now.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-ireland-is-not-ready-for-unity-but-may-have-to-take-that-step-1.3990937?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fopinion%2Ffintan-o-toole-we-need-to-start-asking-tough-questions-about-how-we-share-this-island-1.3990937%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR2aL09eNX8rfhJJk40Fwhi0OtZVxtDJVf0vkPVvvJ8X4oK26-6Ni285lqM

Yes before it was just SF calling for such a border poll and then forgotten about for months.

Whatever will happen the north’s connection with the rest of the uk will he weakened. This is clear from Brexit voters in England. The north is of no great concern to them.

blanch152 · 20-08-2019 5:06pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Cut the crap. Take a point as it's intended for once in your career.
Motives have everything to do with it quiet obviously. We wouldn't have one side without the other and vice versa in some cases.
Your faux outrage is manufactured and misplaced purposefully.
I won't waste my time on you.

I am struggling to see the outrage in my posts, maybe you would point it out. There is disgust there certainly, but not outrage. It would be faux outrage if I was taking offence at perceived slights on my culture, but I don't sink to that level.

When it comes to the IRA, I will call a spade a spade. There was no justification, no explanation, no understanding for what they did. The sneaking regard in the "seeking freedom" explanation is beneath contempt in my opinion.

janfebmar · 20-08-2019 5:07pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Back then (1945) given an option one might choose German over British.

No, in the era we were discussing, Devalera being the only leader in the world to express condolences to the Germans over the death of Hitler, only weeks after the horrors of the Nazi death camps were exposed, nobody in their right mind could have chosen the Germans over the British.

steddyeddy · 20-08-2019 5:07pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Republicans did, look at Sean Russell, who Republicans erected a statue to, the only statue to a Nazi collaborator in Europe. And who was the only head of government in the world to offer official condolences to the Germans on the death of Hitler, only weeks after the Nazi death camps were liberated (thanks partly to the British) and exposed to the world. How sick Irish republicanism was.

Jesus J the King of England. Edward VIII collaborated aswell. We have no one of that rank who went as far as he did.

As regards Nazi sympathisers you can look no further than loyalism.

08_Carrickfergus_w--(None).jpg

blanch152 · 20-08-2019 5:09pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Back then given an option one might choose German over British. In retrospect, not so much.

There was no comparison. Equating the British of the 1940s with the Nazis, well we have seen it all.

steddyeddy · 20-08-2019 5:16pm

janfebmar wrote: »

No, in the era we were discussing, Devalera being the only leader in the world to express condolences to the Germans over the death of Hitler, only weeks after the horrors of the Nazi death camps were exposed, nobody in their right mind could have chosen the Germans over the British.

Again the future King of England, Edward VIII visited Hitler at his country home in the Bavarian Alps. When the future king and his partner planned to visit America Jewish organisations there protested that the Duke and his partner were ignoring the persecution of Jews in Germany.

Sure Dev sent condolences on the death of Hitler but he didn't visit him at his country home.

FrancieBrady · 20-08-2019 5:20pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Again the future King of England, Edward VIII visited Hitler at his country home in the Bavarian Alps. When the future king and his partner planned to visit America Jewish organisations there protested that the Duke and his partner were ignoring the persecution of Jews in Germany.

Sure Dev sent condolences on the death of Hitler but he didn't visit him at his country home.

It's pointless, Jan, blanch and tim have 'the look the other way' specs on again.

blanch152 · 20-08-2019 5:20pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Again the future King of England, Edward VIII visited Hitler at his country home in the Bavarian Alps. When the future king and his partner planned to visit America Jewish organisations there protested that the Duke and his partner were ignoring the persecution of Jews in Germany.

Sure Dev sent condolences on the death of Hitler but he didn't visit him at his country home.

There is no comparison between the state of knowledge in 1937 of Nazi atrocities and that of 1945.

Calling the comparison disingenuous is unfair, odious would be a better word.

De Valera let this country down badly, we shouldn't be afraid to admit that. After all, the British have more or less disowned Chamberlain, shouldn't we disown De Valera?

timthumbni · 20-08-2019 5:20pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Back then given an option one might choose German over British. r.

I have read some crap on here but this takes the biscuit. You would take a side who gassed millions of Jews and other non conformers over the British, who along with basically everyone else in the world fought to the death to stop them.

That’s a low point even for Irish republicans ffs.

timthumbni · 20-08-2019 5:22pm

Irish republicans standing up for nazis. What a sick joke?

steddyeddy · 20-08-2019 5:22pm

blanch152 wrote: »

There was no comparison. Equating the British of the 1940s with the Nazis, well we have seen it all.

Not in terms of style i.e a final solution but they're definitely comparable in terms of colonial actions based on perceived supremacy and destruction and loss of life caused to those they perceived as lesser.

For example the British secretary of state for India said of Churchill:

On the subject of India, Winston is not quite sane... I didn't see much difference between his outlook and Hitler's
-Leo Amery, British Secretary of State for India

Churchill himself said some pretty Hitler like things in his time too.

I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.
-Entry dated to September 1942 on a conversation held with Churchill in Leo Amery : Diaries.

I hope it would be bitter and bloody!
-Churchill, upon hearing news of conflict between the Muslim League and Indian Congress, July 1940

If food is scarce, why isn't Gandhi dead yet?
-Churchill's witty retort to British Secretary of State for India Leo Amery's telegram for food stock to relieve the famine of Bengal in 1943 (4 million peopled starved to death.)

Relief would do no good, Indians breed like rabbits and will outstrip any available food supply
-Leo Amery records Churchill's stance on why famine relief was refused to India, 1944

FrancieBrady · 20-08-2019 5:24pm

blanch152 wrote: »

There is no comparison between the state of knowledge in 1937 of Nazi atrocities and that of 1945.

Calling the comparison disingenuous is unfair, odious would be a better word.

De Valera let this country down badly, we shouldn't be afraid to admit that. After all, the British have more or less disowned Chamberlain, shouldn't we disown De Valera?

Maybe when they admit what Churchill actually was and to what he did in his career?

Dev made a mistake, no doubting that. A minor one in the scale of some of the mistakes made, not least, appeasing Germany as it rebuilt itself or the vicious and revengeful carpet bombing of Dresden and Colonge. Those 'mistakes' cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

steddyeddy · 20-08-2019 5:27pm

blanch152 wrote: »

There is no comparison between the state of knowledge in 1937 of Nazi atrocities and that of 1945.

Calling the comparison disingenuous is unfair, odious would be a better word.

De Valera let this country down badly, we shouldn't be afraid to admit that. After all, the British have more or less disowned Chamberlain, shouldn't we disown De Valera?

I'm not afraid to admit that. I'm not defending what Dev did at all. It goes without saying it was reprehensible, however, the purpose of bringing it into the conversation was to paint a child like fiction of Irish think Nazi's are good based on a few collaborations.

After the war Edward VIII stated:

that Hitler was “not such a bad chap,” and frequently blamed any number of groups, including the British government, America and even Jews themselves for causing World War II.

A member of Churchill's cabinet warned:

Churchill later claimed that his primary concern throughout this time was the Duke’s safety and getting him “beyond the reach of the enemy.” In reality, he was fully aware of the potential dangers the Windsors posed.

As a member of his Cabinet, Viscount Caldecote, warned him: “[The Duke] is well-known to be pro-Nazi and he may become a center of intrigue.”

In both Portugal and Spain, watch was kept on the Duke to ensure he did not speak against the Allies to the press.

The ‘Duke believes with certainty that continued heavy bombing will make England ready for peace’

timthumbni · 20-08-2019 5:28pm

It’s always comforting to know that the resident shinner bots on here standing up for the nazis. Embarrassing for them. I didn’t expect anything different tbh.

steddyeddy · 20-08-2019 5:29pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Maybe when they admit what Churchill actually was and to what he did in his career?

Dev made a mistake, no doubting that. A minor one in the scale of some of the mistakes made, not least, appeasing Germany as it rebuilt itself or the vicious and revengeful carpet bombing of Dresden and Colonge. Those 'mistakes' cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

Exactly. The views of Churchill are far more closely aligned with Hitler's than Devs was. Churchill was also responsible for a much larger loss of life of those he considered "lesser" like the Indians of Bengal.

steddyeddy · 20-08-2019 5:31pm

timthumbni wrote: »

It’s always comforting to know that the resident shinner bots on here standing up for the nazis. Embarrassing for them. I didn’t expect anything different tbh.

And Tim it's always comforting to know that no matter what time of the day here your posts will always bear no relation to any posts that came before it.

Posts about collaboration between the British monarchy and the Nazis will be read as Nazi defending on planet Tim.

blanch152 · 20-08-2019 5:35pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm not afraid to admit that. I'm not defending what Dev did at all. It goes without saying it was reprehensible, however, the purpose of bringing it into the conversation was to paint a child like fiction of Irish think Nazi's are good based on a few collaborations.

After the war Edward VIII stated:

A member of Churchill's cabinet warned:

I think the point being made was that the then IRA leader - Sean Russell - collaborated with the Nazis, which is indeed a fair point.

The usual defend all things Republican mob got upset at one of their icons being so maligned. I am happy to call what Dev did reprehensible, but it wasn't treason, which is what Russell was guilty of.

blanch152 · 20-08-2019 5:37pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Maybe when they admit what Churchill actually was and to what he did in his career?

Dev made a mistake, no doubting that. A minor one in the scale of some of the mistakes made, not least, appeasing Germany as it rebuilt itself or the vicious and revengeful carpet bombing of Dresden and Colonge. Those 'mistakes' cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

God almighty, we are really dredging the bottom of the sewer now, aren't we?

When people cannot admit that Sean Russell was a traitor and that Dev's condolences were reprehensible without referring back to what some Brit has done, we have reached a new low.

The glorious 12th

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