Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

10000maniacs · 15-08-2019 11:08AM

lawred2 wrote: »

what?

what has a Swedish girl's actions on climate change got to do with someone's republicanism or patriotism? And what's the relevance to Brexit?

I'm seriously baffled as to how you've arrived at the above.

Ill answer your question now that its not "What?" anymore.:)
I never said they were connected.
But if you carried out a poll on how many Brexiters supported environmental issues, it would be a lot less than in the Remainer camp.

johnnyskeleton · 15-08-2019 11:55AM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Mod note:

Morning folks, just had a look at a few posts overnight which are of the one line personal attack on a politician or media personality. As per the charter, lets discuss the policies they espouse rather than commenting on their characters please.

C'mon guys, dont make me tap the sign!

Professor Moriarty · 15-08-2019 11:56AM

10000maniacs wrote: »

Ill answer your question now that its not "What?" anymore.:)
I never said they were connected.
But if you carried out a poll on how many Brexiters supported environmental issues, it would be a lot less than in the Remainer camp.

You're welcome.

10000maniacs · 15-08-2019 11:58AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Why do you call her a Republican?

Anybody who thinks Boris Johnson should suspend parliament to bypass a leave vote and deliver a no-deal Brexit is an English Republican.

Professor Moriarty · 15-08-2019 12:03PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

Anybody who thinks Boris Johnson should suspend parliament to bypass a leave vote to deliver a no-deal Brexit is an English Republican.

You're right that she is a staunch English Republican. She wants to abolish the monarchy. Fair dos to her for that.

prawnsambo · 15-08-2019 12:04PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

Anybody who thinks Boris Johnson should suspend parliament to bypass a leave vote and deliver a no-deal Brexit is an English Republican.

Politically it's still not republicanism. It's much more like dictatorship. Although, to be fair, most dictators like to call their countries "republics" and democratic while they're at it.

10000maniacs · 15-08-2019 12:09PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Politically it's still not republicanism. It's much more like dictatorship. Although, to be fair, most dictators like to call their countries "republics" and democratic while they're at it.

Yeah, maybe republicanism is too good a word for what is unfolding before our eyes in England currently.

c_murph · 15-08-2019 12:14PM

Batrachotox wrote: »

Corbyn making a move. Finally.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-pm-block-no-deal-brexit-cross-party-general-election-a9058886.html

Good to see Jo Swinson adopt the Boris Johnson negotiation style in her response. I wonder what she thinks will happen now if she asks Corbyn to meet and discuss forming a caretaker government?

I'm no fan of Corbyn, but he will be able to bring 90%+ of Labour MPs with him, his support is essential for a caretaker government and shooting him down publicly does nobody any good, save for Boris Johnson.

More sensible approach being taken by Grieve et al, agreeing to meet and talk.

lawred2 · 15-08-2019 12:30PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

Ill answer your question now that its not "What?" anymore.:)
I never said they were connected.
But if you carried out a poll on how many Brexiters supported environmental issues, it would be a lot less than in the Remainer camp.

Who's editing this thread? Why was my response to you deleted? But not your quote of my post ???

MrMusician18 · 15-08-2019 12:31PM

c_murph wrote: »

Good to see Jo Swinson adopt the Boris Johnson negotiation style in her response. I wonder what she thinks will happen now if she asks Corbyn to meet and discuss forming a caretaker government?

I'm no fan of Corbyn, but he will be able to bring 90%+ of Labour MPs with him, his support is essential for a caretaker government and shooting him down publicly does nobody any good, save for Boris Johnson.

More sensible approach being taken by Grieve et al, agreeing to meet and talk.

Amateur hour from the lib Dems again.

I don't understand the seeming necessary for British politicians to paint themselves into a corner at every opportunity

20silkcut · 15-08-2019 12:32PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

One great thing about the Brexit mess in the UK is that it separated the Republicans from the patriots. Brewer is doing what you would expect any hate filled UK republican would do, Ridicule,vilify and troll somebody who does not share her views. Does not matter that this 16 year old girl should have a bigger say in the future of the planet, Brewer is chugging along nicely towards old age, like the vast majority of the Brexiters.

The cold reality is that the world is owned and run by people aged roughly between 40 and 80. They make most of the decisions and call the shots.
Waiting for the Greta Thornberg generation to come on stream is not an option.

prawnsambo · 15-08-2019 12:47PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Amateur hour from the lib Dems again.

I don't understand the seeming necessary for British politicians to paint themselves into a corner at every opportunity

I can sort of understand her logic. Having Corbyn heading it would probably discourage any Tory rebels from joining. Hence the proposals of the likes of Ken Clarke etc.

trellheim · 15-08-2019 12:50PM

Yes, anyone missing this is not understanding how polarizing Corbyn is for middle ground Tories, whenever the media can , they run a negative spin. It's not that warranted of course but when has that ever mattered.

robinph · 15-08-2019 12:51PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

I can sort of understand her logic. Having Corbyn heading it would probably discourage any Tory rebels from joining. Hence the proposals of the likes of Ken Clarke etc.

It needs to be someone other than Corbyn for those reasons, but also sticking Ken Clarke or Harriet Harman in as caretaker PM will mean nobody is going to be put off by them potentially sticking around for longer than was originally intended. It will be clear its for one job only and then they leave.

prawnsambo · 15-08-2019 01:03PM

robinph wrote: »

It needs to be someone other than Corbyn for those reasons, but also sticking Ken Clarke or Harriet Harman in as caretaker PM will mean nobody is going to be put off by them potentially sticking around for longer than was originally intended. It will be clear its for one job only and then they leave.

It's also Corbyn's ambivalence towards brexit. And of course the danger of putting the opposition leader in a position of power that he wasn't elected to. It would have all the smell of a coup about it and that would be completely counter productive to its aims.

It's not a particularly good idea anyway. Johnson wants an election, so that's what's going to happen and opposition parties would be far better off organising voting pacts.

c_murph · 15-08-2019 01:30PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's also Corbyn's ambivalence towards brexit. And of course the danger of putting the opposition leader in a position of power that he wasn't elected to. It would have all the smell of a coup about it and that would be completely counter productive to its aims.

It's not a particularly good idea anyway. Johnson wants an election, so that's what's going to happen and opposition parties would be far better off organising voting pacts.

I was assuming that Swinson would be more sensible on Brexit than Corbyn. I cannot imagine Corbyn backing someone else to lead a caretaker government ahead of him.

It's definitely not a good idea, and one that would make a lot of MPs squeamish at the prospect of sitting alongside the enemy. But the manner in which she's dismissed it out of hand makes any discussion of an alternative choice such as Ken Clarke all the more difficult.

Trying to rationalise it, she may think a caretaker government a total non-runner and not worth thinking about?
Otherwise, if it does become the primary option to stop no-deal, she will have two choices:
1) Back down from her statement and agree on Corbyn entering No. 10 for a few days.
2) Maintain her stance and precipitate no-deal. Corbyn will totally allow Brexit to happen rather than resign or be made to look so weak as to end his leadership.

Neither looks good for her. So she can only be thinking there's zero chance of it happening.

prawnsambo · 15-08-2019 01:38PM

c_murph wrote: »

I was assuming that Swinson would be more sensible on Brexit than Corbyn. I cannot imagine Corbyn backing someone else to lead a caretaker government ahead of him.

I think it makes him look weak. If he declared that he would join it and agree a neutral leader with the other parties, he'd look statesmanlike. He doesn't have to get all sniffy and entitled about it. It's supposed to be about saving parliament and democracy, not a pissing contest to see who's got the most 'right' to lead it.

MrMusician18 · 15-08-2019 01:46PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

I can sort of understand her logic. Having Corbyn heading it would probably discourage any Tory rebels from joining. Hence the proposals of the likes of Ken Clarke etc.

That is fair enough, but you don't box yourself in. The way she's approached this means the proposal is dead and had made it all about Corbyn. She should have said that there were aspects of the proposal that were good and that she works work with Labour on the bits they had difficulty with. First of all, it would help flush out those who would have no problem (even if holding their noses) with Corbyn leading the temporary government and the others that would have no problem with the proposal but for Corbyn. With the numbers each way crystalized, it would be absolutely clear if Corbyn needed to stand aside to get the national Government over the line.

What Swinson had done is ensured that a number of competing plans will remain out there, dividing the remain support and ensuring that no plan opposing no deal will get majority support.

Stupidity from the lib Dems, but I wouldn't expect anything else from them.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-08-2019 01:54PM

Some Tory rebels agreed to meet Corbyn. This all just feels too fractured and scattershot to achieve anything.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/15/lib-dems-and-anna-soubry-reject-corbyn-caretaker-government?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1565864373

prawnsambo · 15-08-2019 01:59PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That is fair enough, but you don't box yourself in. The way she's approached this means the proposal is dead and had made it all about Corbyn. She should have said that there were aspects of the proposal that were good and that she works work with Labour on the bits they had difficulty with. First of all, it would help flush out those who would have no problem (even if holding their noses) with Corbyn leading the temporary government and the others that would have no problem with the proposal but for Corbyn. With the numbers each way crystalized, it would be absolutely clear if Corbyn needed to stand aside to get the national Government over the line.

What Swinson had done is ensured that a number of competing plans will remain out there, dividing the remain support and ensuring that no plan opposing no deal will get majority support.

Stupidity from the lib Dems, but I wouldn't expect anything else from them.

It's a box-in either way. The Tories can block anything if they're united and have the DUP with them. No surer way of stopping Tory waverers from opposing the government than putting Corbyn as the figurehead. Apart from the absolute hatred most Tories have for him (I'm not excusing this btw), he's leader of the opposition and that's just too big a bridge to cross. Corbyn's approach is clever (but very cynical). He can look like he's in favour of it without actually having to do anything. The only way to have a GNU is to make sure that you have all the opposition and some Tories to carry it. Chances of this are slimmer than a snowball's in hell.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-08-2019 02:03PM

The cynic in me thinks this is Corbyn finally doing something to be seen to finally take a position on it but knowing it’ll never fly. It almost mirrors Johnson’s inevitable ‘I wanted to deliver brexit but parliament blocked me’ well hear him shout in the coming campaign

serfboard · 15-08-2019 02:08PM

10000maniacs wrote: »

if you carried out a poll on how many Brexiters supported environmental issues, it would be a lot less than in the Remainer camp.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

You're welcome.

Quoting from that article:

The Guardian wrote:

British people backing a leave vote in the EU referendum are almost twice as likely to believe that climate change does not have a human cause, according to a new poll.

Brexiters are more likely to think the media exaggerates how settled climate science is; distrust scientists; have sympathy with creationism; oppose onshore windfarms and support fracking.

None of that is a surprise, but interesting to see it recorded.

CrabRevolution · 15-08-2019 02:17PM

No matter how much they disagree with Johnson, I can't see any MPs rowing in behind Corbyn when his "policy" on brexit is to steadfastly have no stance at all.

robinph · 15-08-2019 02:27PM

serfboard wrote: »

Quoting from that article:

None of that is a surprise, but interesting to see it recorded.

But I doubt there would have been a similar result to any survey 4 years ago, there were not 50% of the voting population denying climate change then. It's just that after three years of being told not to believe experts about anything and to argue against any previously held popular belief things have swung 180 and previously daft views are now accepted as normal.

johnnyskeleton · 15-08-2019 02:55PM

lawred2 wrote: »

Who's editing this thread? Why was my response to you deleted? But not your quote of my post ???

Mod note:

See previous mod notes, and please dont dispute moderstion on thread.

Headshot · 15-08-2019 02:57PM

I feel it was a bit of an own goal for Lib Dems today. Jo Swinson was far to harsh today and should of been more pragmatic.

I know where Jo is coming from but surely what's the harm in meeting Corbyn. It's only going to be a very temporary national unity party

PropJoe10 · 15-08-2019 03:20PM

Headshot wrote: »

I feel it was a bit of an own goal for Lib Dems today. Jo Swinson was far to harsh today and should of been more pragmatic.

I know where Jo is coming from but surely what's the harm in meeting Corbyn. It's only going to be a very temporary national unity party

I think she's probably right, in fairness. Corbyn has consistently flip-flopped over Brexit and has basically stood for nothing for the entire process. He doesn't even have the support of a fair chunk of Labour MPs, never mind gaining support from rebel Tories.

I think there's much more likelihood of people rowing in behind the likes of Kenneth Clarke in a short term situation. Highly experienced, talks sense, and is respected across the entire House.

Professor Moriarty · 15-08-2019 03:24PM

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I think she's probably right, in fairness. Corbyn has consistently flip-flopped over Brexit and has basically stood for nothing for the entire process. He doesn't even have the support of a fair chunk of Labour MPs, never mind gaining support from rebel Tories.

I think there's much more likelihood of people rowing in behind the likes of Kenneth Clarke in a short term situation. Highly experienced, talks sense, and is respected across the entire House.

Clarke would indeed be the choice of most. The problem is that making Clarke interim PM would be a humiliating slap in the face for the Leader of the Opposition and, by extension, for Labour.

Water John · 15-08-2019 03:24PM

It's early days in this particular dance. Swinson simply stating the obvious and playing a little hardball. This may force Corbyn to give concessions in return for him getting the Temp PM position. That's one outcome.
BTW we have had situations where the leader of the largest party in a coalition was not the Taoiseach, because one of the parties objected to it.

quokula · 15-08-2019 03:39PM

Headshot wrote: »

I feel it was a bit of an own goal for Lib Dems today. Jo Swinson was far to harsh today and should of been more pragmatic.

I know where Jo is coming from but surely what's the harm in meeting Corbyn. It's only going to be a very temporary national unity party

They've always been more concerned with using "remain" as their election USP to try and steal votes from Labour, since their time in coalition made them poisonous on domestic policy, than actually taking any real action to stop Brexit.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Comments