Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

Samuel T. Cogley · 14-07-2019 10:12am

In fairness all you have to do is specifiy a minimum 14 day stay.

14-07-2019 10:36am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

In fairness all you have to do is specifiy a minimum 14 day stay.

Just as there is a difference between tax evasion (illegal) and tax avoidance (legal), personally I would appreciate any advice about ways around this law which are legal. If they are indeed legal, then accusations that it promotes illegal activity are baseless.

Dav13579 · 14-07-2019 12:28pm

I was at a stag at the weekend and met a college friend from years back who now works in revenue.
So since I and another guy at the stag are both former landlords now renting through Airbnb because of all the legislation, red tape, taxation and so on (I wont bore you with the detail), we had a long conversation with him about this new Airbnb legislation.
He had a lot to say on it as he is involved in investigations for fraud in revenue so might end up on that project. HE said they have already had many meetings about what might happen in revenue and they all end up with much laughter.

He told us it is a farce and that we shouldn't bother even giving it a second thought if we want to remain doing Airbnb as the chances of anything happening to us are so slim. He actually said he figured one of us would win the lottery before we come to any kind of meaningful punishment for doing Airbnb.

Now needless to say I asked for more detail which he did go into for me which i'll summarize here and post again properly when this hangover clears. But he said revenue may not even be the ones doing the investigations etc here. They don't know yet, but if it goes anywhere else but the gardai or revenue, they will be utterly useless is his opinion as their cases will just fall apart because they don't have the experience to follow through. So it should come to revenue is his opinion, but is still a waste of their time and they expect that it will have a huge negative impact on revenue collected.

Anyway some points he made.

1 - The chances of getting caught, fined or convicted are as close to zero as you will get.
He pointed out all of the offences involving everything from littering to social welfare fraud (that have massive teams on it and they hardly ever catch anyone) that they cant make stick.

2 - He explained that in revenue they think this legislation is a total and utter waste of resources, though they don't know how many if any will be on it yet. Revenue work off the premise that they will pump large amounts of resources (tax payers money) into getting very few high profile convictions, which should then hopefully scare other people enough to not do it. Most things investigated pay for themselves like large scale tax evasion, but he said certainly not Airbnb/short term letting. That's just a waste. There is no way to recoup the money that will be spent so the effort will be tiny and will stop after 2 or 3 convictions if they can even get them with the press assault going with them. Its just not worth it to continue after that.

3 - Usually they want to make people pay their taxes with this expensive blitz and press. He reckons all this one will do is remove people already paying their taxes through Airbnb and other legit sites, to other platforms, who will now have the correct opinion that staying legit with revenue will only increase your chances of gaining their attention. In short it, if they put the pressure on people for Airbnb/ short term letting it will cause less taxes to be paid than are already being paid, which he said they find absolutely hilarious he tells me.

4 - He pointed out that there are so many holes in this legislation it is laughable. I wont post them here but they made perfect sense to me when he explained them to me. The legislation seems totally unworkable with so many ways around it. He went into at least 5 or 6 if not more. He explained that if you can get a way around a law that doesn't involve doing anything illegal then what you are doing is perfectly legal (Did I say that right) and no one can punish you for it.

5 - Basically he said the government are faffing about in the wind and have no idea at all what they are doing when it comes to taxation on rental properties. They are throwing the baby out with the bath water were his words.

Anyway, im off to bed. I know some of that didn't make much sense but i'll come back tomorrow and see if I can tidy it up.
I found it very interesting anyway and I hope some of you find it interesting too. He did mention many other points which I had never thought of, so i'll come back when I remember them.

Jay Dee · 14-07-2019 1:29pm

Hi,

all this one will do is remove people already paying their taxes through Airbnb and other legit sites, to other platforms, who will now have the correct opinion that staying legit with revenue will only increase your chances of gaining their attention. ....... if they put the pressure on people for Airbnb/ short term letting it will cause less taxes to be paid than are already being paid.

We are now over 1000 posts, and this one is the first one that makes since, and it came ( allegedly ) from the people who are enforcing it..
and it makes sense....

Jay

Graham · 14-07-2019 1:30pm

Since when are revenue overseeing planning enforcement or the residential tenancies act?

14-07-2019 1:43pm

Graham wrote: »

Since when are revenue overseeing planning enforcement or the residential tenancies act?

I would suspect they may be interested in the income earned on platforms other than Airbnb which deal in cash payments, unlike Airbnb which do not.

You would hope that with legislation like this, there would be some sharing of information between Revenue and Dept of Environment. So those involved with planning and tax evasion/fraud would be among those that are better informed about investigation and enforcement. If they have no confidence in it, how can anyone else?

Now we have both someone from Revenue and a highly placed official with DCC saying the legislation is difficult to enforce.

davindub · 14-07-2019 1:49pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Now we have both someone from Revenue and a highly placed official with DCC saying the legislation is difficult to enforce.

Or some idiot made up a story and posted it to boards? They call it fake news.

Revenue have no involvement in these new regs.

Graham · 14-07-2019 1:51pm

So we have a third party report that someone in a completely unrelated government department with nothing to do with the subject suggesting they think it might be safe enough to ignore the planning legislation and the RTA.

Uh huh.

Fan of Netflix · 14-07-2019 2:02pm

Eoghan Murphy needs this to work. He is not a fool, I can only assume all of this has been worked out and that enforcement will be happening.

14-07-2019 2:05pm

Graham wrote: »

So we have a third party report that someone in a completely unrelated government department with nothing to do with the subject suggesting they think it might be safe enough to ignore the planning legislation and the RTA.

Uh huh.

If you are considering ignoring the legislation, not that I would advocate that, and want to rely on a first party report from someone in the most related government department stating that legislation is difficult to investigate and report, just Google “Richard Shakespeare Airbnb”

14-07-2019 2:07pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Eoghan Murphy needs this to work. He is not a fool, I can only assume all of this has been worked out and that enforcement will be happening.

I don’t think you should assume all this has been worked out and that enforcement will be happening. There have been notable examples where legislation was not worked out before being passed.

Graham · 14-07-2019 2:08pm

This would be the person with a vested interest in emphasising the difficulty in order to secure appropriate funding for enforcement?

14-07-2019 2:14pm

Graham wrote: »

This would be the person with a vested interest in emphasising the difficulty in order to secure appropriate funding for enforcement?

Either scenario emphasises the fact that Hosts need not worry too much about this, either Councils are not prepared, or can’t get the money and resources to enforce.

Claw Hammer · 14-07-2019 2:20pm

Since the beginning of the current housing shortage, the whole strategy has appeared to be to give the appearance of doing something, anything in the hope of buying time and that the market will then sort out the problem. So we've had then caps, extended notice periods, housing hubs, help to buy et cetera et cetera.
This is just the latest "be seen to be doing something" stunt. The reality is that the planning authorities want tourism. There aren't enough hotel bedrooms. Tourists come into the country and spend money in shops restaurants and pubs. The councils get their rates from the same restaurants, shops and pubs. It doesn't take a genius to see the relationship between tourist numbers and counselling comes. Air B&B could be stopped in a few weeks if they were really serious.

Graham · 14-07-2019 2:24pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Either scenario emphasises the fact that Hosts need not worry too much about this, either Councils are not prepared, or can’t get the money and resources to enforce.

You keep referring to an article from a while back where they were only starting to estimate at funding requirements.

Of course there will always be an element of wishful thinking from a particular sector that hopes this will all just go away.

At the end of the day, regardless of the above. Most property investors will comply with the law.

14-07-2019 2:40pm

Graham wrote: »

You keep referring to an article from a while back where they were only starting to estimate at funding requirements.

Of course there will always be an element of wishful thinking from a particular sector that hopes this will all just go away.

At the end of the day, regardless of the above. Most property investors will comply with the law.

How about a more recent one from just a few weeks ago where DCC stated they had no staff to enforce the legislation.

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2019/06/05/is-dublin-city-council-ready-to-enforce-new-rules-to-rein-in-short-term-lets

The wishful think you refer to is not limited to one side by the looks of things.

Time will tell if most apply with the law, a recent analysis by the RTB showed that a significant proportion on LLs do not comply with RTA, and this is where tenant can complain directly, what hope then for enforcement relies solely on local councils?

I think you yourself are indulging in some wishful thinking.

Bluefoam · 14-07-2019 2:54pm

How about you follow the law/legislation instead of discussing how easy or difficult it would be to enforce, catch you or otherwise implement. Obeying the law is not about evading the law, it's about following a set of rules the apply a cross the board on a societal level... You might win by hiding a few quid, but society looses. I hope anyone evading is punished appropriately and shamed for doing so.

14-07-2019 3:06pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

How about you follow the law/legislation instead of discussing how easy or difficult it would be to enforce, catch you or otherwise implement. Obeying the law is not about evading the law, it's about following a set of rules the apply a cross the board on a societal level... You might win by hiding a few quid, but society looses. I hope anyone evading is punished appropriately and shamed for doing so.

I suspect the reason it is being discussed is because many property owners feel they are being unfairly targeted, not just with this legislation but also with the RTA/RTB.

But as I posted earlier, if there is a legal way of avoiding prosecution while continuing to operate a short term let, there should be no issue with it being posted.

Graham · 14-07-2019 3:17pm

Dav010 wrote: »

if there is a legal way of avoiding prosecution while continuing to operate a short term let, there should be no issue with it being posted.

Mod Note

There have been no such discussions. Move on.

Further attempts to discuss moderation on thread will not end well.

LuckyLloyd · 14-07-2019 9:32pm

There is a strong political incentive for a scalp. Particularly when the public can see the residential properties being used as unlicensed hotels all around them. There is a political will here, a strong will. And there are definitely ways.

A scalp shall be forthcoming in my opinion.

CoffeeBean2 · 14-07-2019 11:41pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There is a strong political incentive for a scalp......

A scalp shall be forthcoming in my opinion.

That it terribly racist! Surely our government knows better than to be racist?

mrslancaster · 16-07-2019 5:00pm

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

…. You also do *NOT* need planning permission or change of use permission to open a B&B as long as you have four or less units!

This was always my understanding - having a B&B of up to 4 rooms in your PPR was exempted development. Fire safety/food regulations was a separate thing but there was no need to apply for a change of use with the planning. Is a B&B still exempted development?

Trying to understand the new regulations around homeshares / short term lets in a PPR. Is my understanding correct?

1) The new regs only apply to RPZ's
2) Under the new regs:

house shares - no restrictions
letting for 90 days while homeowner is absent - ok
over 90 days total in a year - homeowner must get PP
short-term lets are only for 1-14 days - so the 90 day total is 6 x 14 day lets with a 1 day break between

3) Registration with council:

Form 15 to be sent by the homeowner to the local council in advance for any amount of days
Form 17 to be sent by the homeowner at the end of the year to confirm the total number of days used for short term lettings
Form 16 to be sent by the homeowner when the 90 days are exceeded
Tenants who want to Airbnb spare rooms need to get owners consent and that must be included on the Form 15

Should all Forms include a statutory declaration?

Could someone explain this (from the FAQ's on the housing.ie website)
Longer letting of 15 days or more do not fall within the scope of the new provisions and are permissible. A host can let a property to the same guest for periods of 15 days or more.

Thanks in advance.

Eric Cartman · 16-07-2019 5:08pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There is a strong political incentive for a scalp. Particularly when the public can see the residential properties being used as unlicensed hotels all around them. There is a political will here, a strong will. And there are definitely ways.

A scalp shall be forthcoming in my opinion.

I think apartments with a shared entrance will be enforced upon as some already have been. Own door units won’t be touched imo.

One of my clients doing airbnb has taken on 2 new properties in the last week, landlords and these ‘letting managers’ arent concerned at all.

L1011 · 17-07-2019 6:49pm

I've a saved search from when I bought my house years and years ago that rarely gets anything anymore due to price rises

Today three apartments with similar, decent grade fitouts appeared a relatively small distance from each other. Two are clearly vacant posession from the pictures, one has over-normal density of beds (double+single bunk in one room)

Its a leap to assume they're even connected at all but there is a whiff of an AirBnB host getting out here.

17-07-2019 8:38pm

L1011 wrote: »

I've a saved search from when I bought my house years and years ago that rarely gets anything anymore due to price rises

Today three apartments with similar, decent grade fitouts appeared a relatively small distance from each other. Two are clearly vacant posession from the pictures, one has over-normal density of beds (double+single bunk in one room)

Its a leap to assume they're even connected at all but there is a whiff of an AirBnB host getting out here.

I suppose some will automatically assume and even celebrate any sale they think is associated with Airbnb legislation, the reality is you haven’t a clue why they are being sold. They could be someone leaving the rental market, someone selling because property prices may have peaked, bank sales etc, but hey, let’s call it a whiff of Airbnb Host getting out of here.

Double + single bed could be a family selling to upsize or student accommodation.

L1011 · 17-07-2019 8:54pm

And I suppose some will deny the legislation has any impact at all...

A double+single bunk - double bed with a single above - is not a normal item of furniture in any circumstances but is very common in short term rental apartments. Its not in a student area; and double beds in that specific type of high density accommodation is almost unheard of.

17-07-2019 9:07pm

L1011 wrote: »

And I suppose some will deny the legislation has any impact at all...

A double+single bunk - double bed with a single above - is not a normal item of furniture in any circumstances but is very common in short term rental apartments. Its not in a student area; and double beds in that specific type of high density accommodation is almost unheard of.

I suspect bunk beds are a lot more common in kids rooms that adult short lets, but speculate away. Don’t forget, it is of course very uncommon for properties to be sold with vacant possession, must be an Airbnb.

That last bit was sarcasm.

L1011 wrote: »

I'll let the poster state if they were being sarcastic rather than assuming.

Fan of Netflix · 17-07-2019 10:19pm

Some Air BnB hosts won't want the hassle of breaking the law. Others will chance it and some of them will be brought to court and made an example of.

17-07-2019 10:55pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

…. You also do *NOT* need planning permission or change of use permission to open a B&B as long as you have four or less units!

This was always my understanding - having a B&B of up to 4 rooms in your PPR was exempted development. Fire safety/food regulations was a separate thing but there was no need to apply for a change of use with the planning. Is a B&B still exempted development?

Trying to understand the new regulations around homeshares / short term lets in a PPR. Is my understanding correct?

1) The new regs only apply to RPZ's
2) Under the new regs:
house shares - no restrictions

letting for 90 days while homeowner is absent - ok

over 90 days total in a year - homeowner must get PP

short-term lets are only for 1-14 days - so the 90 day total is 6 x 14 day lets with a 1 day break between

3) Registration with council:
Form 15 to be sent by the homeowner to the local council in advance for any amount of days

Form 17 to be sent by the homeowner at the end of the year to confirm the total number of days used for short term lettings

Form 16 to be sent by the homeowner when the 90 days are exceeded
Tenants who want to Airbnb spare rooms need to get owners consent and that must be included on the Form 15

Should all Forms include a statutory declaration?

Could someone explain this (from the FAQ's on the housing.ie website)
Longer letting of 15 days or more do not fall within the scope of the new provisions and are permissible. A host can let a property to the same guest for periods of 15 days or more.

Thanks in advance.

sounds like a bureaucratic mess, in hope they have it online, I imagine they'll make a balls of it all.

Cookie_Monster · 18-07-2019 5:38am

L1011 wrote: »

A double+single bunk - double bed with a single above - is not a normal item of furniture in any circumstances but is very common in short term rental apartments.

is it, really? I would have thought it'd be more common with a LL renting to, for arguments sake, 8-10 Polish lads when the apartment is only designed for say 4.

I've never seen a 2+1 bunk in any Air B&B I've been in.

Jay Dee · 18-07-2019 1:03pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Some Air BnB hosts won't want the hassle of breaking the law. Others will chance it and some of them will be brought to court and made an example of.

You are psychic..... !!!

mrslancaster · 18-07-2019 2:00pm

I tried to get a bit more information about the Forms from the council for home-shares / short term lets. Still confusing

.

No forms or PP required for:
Home-sharing or taking a lodger has not changed and can be any length of time.
If its a short-term let of 15 days or more, then it is not considered STL and no forms need to be returned to the council as it is not covered by the new regulations - it is the same as taking a lodger.

Owners need to send the Forms to the council for:
STL is only for periods up to 14 days.
Owners can have as many 1-14 day STLs in the year as they want provided they are living in the house.
If the house is vacant, that is restricted to 90 days in total but has to be in blocks less than 14 days.

How are councils going to monitor this - it's seems unrealistic unless they get the information from the booking platform directly.
Can the likes of Airbnb share information with councils or is it only Revenue? What if the ads are not on booking platforms but guests are found some other way?

PP needed if its a second property for any STL - at least that's straightforward

.

29-07-2019 1:21pm

As expected, new legislation is being taken very seriously by both Hosts and County Councils.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/only-a-fraction-of-airbnb-landlords-register-under-new-letting-rules-1.3969974?mode=amp

LuckyLloyd · 29-07-2019 8:14pm

I’m sure that will continue

Eric Cartman · 29-07-2019 8:29pm

Dav010 wrote: »

As expected, new legislation is being taken very seriously by both Hosts and County Councils.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/only-a-fraction-of-airbnb-landlords-register-under-new-letting-rules-1.3969974?mode=amp

its like the tv licence, just asking them to call round and check... stay quiet and its much easier to avoid detection

Edgware · 29-07-2019 9:00pm

Dav010 wrote: »

As expected, new legislation is being taken very seriously by both Hosts and County Councils.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/only-a-fraction-of-airbnb-landlords-register-under-new-letting-rules-1.3969974?mode=amp

What did you expect? This is Ireland.

We will stamp out abuse in creches.Of course you will
We will stampt out drunken driving. Of course you will.

The dogs may bark but the caravans still roll on

29-07-2019 9:33pm

Edgware wrote: »

What did you expect? This is Ireland.

We will stamp out abuse in creches.Of course you will
We will stampt out drunken driving. Of course you will.

The dogs may bark but the caravans still roll on

This is what I expected.

29-07-2019 9:36pm

Of course this idiotic nanny state rule is being ignored and will continue to be.

Spanish Eyes · 30-07-2019 9:00pm

Plenty of laws, but no enforcement.

That's why people drive in the bus lanes, break the lights, let out their properties on AB+B outside the rules and so on.

All talk, no action really.

Cannot be be beyond the powers of Councils to look up AirBB and see if they have applied for PP where relevant.

awec · 30-07-2019 9:21pm

The rule has been out what, one month?

Some people are getting a little bit too excited in their attempts to try and poke holes.

All we need is for a few chancers to be taken to the cleaners and things will improve. Give it time.

30-07-2019 9:36pm

awec wrote: »

The rule has been out what, one month?

Some people are getting a little bit too excited in their attempts to try and poke holes.

All we need is for a few chancers to be taken to the cleaners and things will improve. Give it time.

Rule? Surely you mean law.

No one is trying to poke holes in the legislation, they are literally ignoring it, that goes for both property owners, and Council staff.

awec · 30-07-2019 9:41pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Rule? Surely you mean law.

No one is trying to poke holes in the legislation, they are literally ignoring it, that goes for both property owners, and Council staff.

Nah, the usual suspects are on here trying to convince us all how terrible this legislation is.

We progressed from how it's terrible for tourists, to how it's outrageous that property owners do not have free reign to do whatever they like, to how it's now terrible because after 1 month there isn't total compliance and the courts aren't packed out the door with cases.

Give it time. Someone (or hopefully many) will be made an example of, and we'll see an improvement.

I don't think anyone out there really expected the legislation to solve the problem in 1 month.

30-07-2019 10:45pm

awec wrote: »

Nah, the usual suspects are on here trying to convince us all how terrible this legislation is.

We progressed from how it's terrible for tourists, to how it's outrageous that property owners do not have free reign to do whatever they like, to how it's now terrible because after 1 month there isn't total compliance and the courts aren't packed out the door with cases.

Give it time. Someone (or hopefully many) will be made an example of, and we'll see an improvement.

I don't think anyone out there really expected the legislation to solve the problem in 1 month.

Maybe not, but considering this was announced over 6 months ago, not to even have the staff in place to enforce it pretty much says all there is to say about it’s importance.

Pretty much no one is bothering about this. I think the legislation is terrible, one of many terrible laws regarding residential tenancies, but I’m not trying to convince you.

awec · 30-07-2019 11:07pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Maybe not, but considering this was announced over 6 months ago, not to even have the staff in place to enforce it pretty much says all there is to say about it’s importance.

Pretty much no one is bothering about this. I think the legislation is terrible, one of many terrible laws regarding residential tenancies, but I’m not trying to convince you.

No it doesn't.

This is just wishful thinking on your part. It's government, things always move slowly.

There could have been thousands of fines issued last month and the same people would still be trying to convince us all that forcing residential property to be used for residential purposes is terrible for people seeking residential accommodation.

Enforcement will come. It will be terrible politics for there not to be. Everyone, bar the chancers who have been taking advantage, wants to see this enforced. There is literally no downside, the people who will complain know they haven't a leg to stand on.

30-07-2019 11:37pm

awec wrote: »

Enforcement will come. It will be terrible politics for there not to be. Everyone, bar the chancers who have been taking advantage, wants to see this enforced. There is literally no downside, the people who will complain know they haven't a leg to stand on.

The vast majority of people either don’t care or don’t want this enforced from my experience. I think it’s being forgotten how many people use Airbnb and the lack of this option will p*ss off a lot of people.

30-07-2019 11:40pm

awec wrote: »

No it doesn't.

This is just wishful thinking on your part. It's government, things always move slowly.

There could have been thousands of fines issued last month and the same people would still be trying to convince us all that forcing residential property to be used for residential purposes is terrible for people seeking residential accommodation.

Enforcement will come. It will be terrible politics for there not to be. Everyone, bar the chancers who have been taking advantage, wants to see this enforced. There is literally no downside, the people who will complain know they haven't a leg to stand on.

Eh, thousands of fines? Go back a few pages and you will see a report where last month DCC confirmed they had no staff assigned to this. Also, go back a few more pages and you will see a link to an interview with DCC head of planning where he outlined the procedure for enforcement and difficulties with it. How could there possibly be any fines, never mind thousands, if there is no staff and no court records of prosecutions?

Bad politics comes like rain in Ireland. Mind boggling.

awec · 31-07-2019 8:06am

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

The vast majority of people either don’t care or don’t want this enforced from my experience. I think it’s being forgotten how many people use Airbnb and the lack of this option will p*ss off a lot of people.

I think you’re suffering from a bout of delusion.

awec · 31-07-2019 8:07am

Dav010 wrote: »

Eh, thousands of fines? Go back a few pages and you will see a report where last month DCC confirmed they had no staff assigned to this. Also, go back a few more pages and you will see a link to an interview with DCC head of planning where he outlined the procedure for enforcement and difficulties with it. How could there possibly be any fines, never mind thousands, if there is no staff and no court records of prosecutions?

Bad politics comes like rain in Ireland. Mind boggling.

I think my post just flew right over your head there...

31-07-2019 8:08am

awec wrote: »

I think you’re suffering from a bout of delusion.

No matter how much you would want to be right, the facts confirmed my CoCos say otherwise, people are ignoring it.

31-07-2019 8:11am

awec wrote: »

I think my post just flew right over your head there...

No, I think your contained a lot of wishful thinking, speculation and an attempt to scaremonger. None of it accurate, the Councils, the people in charge of enforcement, have confirmed people are ignoring it and they have no staff nor resources to do what you want.

There could be, there wasn’t, there won’t be any time soon, there never might be.

Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

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