Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

I can't believe it, it looks like they're actually going to get it through very soon https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2018/140/?tab=debates

Delighted as a neighbour to an airbnb but I feel very sorry for all the tourists.

The government should have had this legislation in place much earlier and by the same token all short term rental sites should have properly warned their customers that this was potentially on the way.

Samuel T. Cogley

They'll be zero enforcement for the first 90 days anyway as proving it wasn't previously a PPR will be more difficult than simply seeing an ad on a website.

Samuel T. Cogley

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

They'll be zero enforcement for the first 90 days anyway as proving it wasn't previously a PPR will be more difficult than simply seeing an ad on a website.

Reviews going back months and years would prove it surely

4ensic15

Deleted User wrote: »

Reviews going back months and years would prove it surely

They are not admissible as evidence in court. the person who wrote the review would have to come to court and give evidence.

Pkiernan

Only 9 days left until the end of homelessness guys.

All those evil Air BnB'ers who took our homes will be gone.

Bluefoam

Pkiernan wrote: »

Only 9 days left until the end of homelessness guys.

All those evil Air BnB'ers who took our homes will be gone.

Lol. Your animosity is amusing

LuckyLloyd

I definitely feel way less sorry for the tourists than I do those contributing full time to our economy looking for somewhere to rent in the city.

It would be bizarre to favour the wants of Tourists over the needs of residents.

Fian

Looking at the version of this bill as it was passed by the Dail:

==

2 year period between rent reviews was extended until 1 January 2022, had been scheduled to automatically drop before then. could easily be extended again before that date is reached unless RPZs are extended nationwide.

==

Error in section 19(5) has been corrected so that properties which were first let out after 25 Dec 2016 will now have the RPZ limits applied to them. Currently if a property was not rented before this date it was permanently outside of the RPZ 4% per annum limit, this has been fixed. Hopefully this will not have too much impact on new supply/building, we will see.

==

Section 8(2) is the big one:

(2) Notwithstanding subsection (5) of section 24A of the Act of 2004 or any order made
thereunder, the period specified in any such order to be the period during which an
area shall stand prescribed as a rent pressure zone shall expire on 31 December 2021.


This would appear to extend all RPZs to 31 December 2021 but also cause all RPZs to expire on 31 December 2021, unless primary legislation is enacted to prevent this from occurring in the interim. It would appear to be no longer open to a Minister to extend the RPZs by order beyond this date. Only the Oireachtas can do so and only by amending the legislation. Of course there is plenty of time to bring in such legislation before that date is reached.

==

the legislation also changes the criteria for RPZs by excluding the dublin area from the "national average" the area is compared to for the purpose of qualifying as an RPZ.

Pkiernan

Bluefoam wrote: »

Lol. Your animosity is amusing

What animosity?

How could I have anything but praise for this law which will free up 2000 homes in Dublin, thereby ending homelessness in the capital.

Everyone's a winner!

Bluefoam

Pkiernan wrote: »

What animosity?

How could I have anything but praise for this law which will free up 2000 homes in Dublin, thereby ending homelessness in the capital.

Everyone's a winner!

Your disingenuous comment humours me also.

Graham

Mod Note

Pkiernan quit the trolling.

FAILSAFE 00

Who is going to police it though?

My guess is they'll keep going until the slap on the wrist and then make the change.

Bluefoam

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Who is going to police it though?

My guess is they'll keep going until the slap on the wrist and then make the change.

The sites (such as AirBNB) will be expected to provide details to the revenue... You'll just get a tax bill and a court order in the post.

Graham

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Who is going to police it though?

My guess is they'll keep going until the slap on the wrist and then make the change.

I understand DCC are already beginning to resource for the enforcement.

Is this covered by the up-to €5k and 6 months sized slap on the wrist?

Dav010

Bluefoam wrote: »

The sites (such as AirBNB) will be expected to provide details to the revenue... You'll just get a tax bill and a court order in the post.

Actually this is incorrect.

Airbnb already provide Revenue with details of Host earnings, that however is not enough to prosecute. In fact the person in DCC responsible for enforcement stated that a listing/booking/payment/review, nor anything else on the site is enough to enforce the new legislation. The enforcement personnel literally have to catch the guests in the act, take their details and then enforce. There is a link earlier in the thread to his interview.


Here is the interview:

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/1122/1012709-airbnb-dublin/

machalla

Graham wrote: »

I understand DCC are already beginning to resource for the enforcement.

Is this covered by the up-to €5k and 6 months sized slap on the wrist?

Knowing public recruitment policies this could take months to fill any vacant roles. Especially over the summer period.

Claw Hammer

Isn't it going to be an offence to advertise or host the advertisement of an unlicenced property?

Dav010

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Isn't it going to be an offence to advertise or host the advertisement of an unlicenced property?

Can you prove who is advertising?

Claw Hammer

Dav010 wrote: »

Can you prove who is advertising?

Very easily i the case of well known platforms. All that has to be done is make a booking and have payment accepted, then trace then follow the money.

Dav010

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Very easily i the case of well known platforms. All that has to be done is make a booking and have payment accepted, then trace then follow the money.

That is incorrect, read the link above, the person responsible in DCC for enforcement stated that a booking/payment is not enough evidence to secure a prosecution, the person may not actually have stayed there and the Host may not be the property owner, it could be a tenant.

Claw Hammer

Dav010 wrote: »

That is incorrect, read the link above, the person responsible in DCC for enforcement stated that a booking/payment is not enough evidence to secure a prosecution, the person may not actually have stayed there and the Host may not be the property owner, it could be a tenant.

The bank of the advertising host can be traced. If it is an offence to advertise an unlicenced property the person or company who hosted the ad will have to show that there was a licence attached to the property they were advertising. The idea is that people who want to do short term letting won't be able to use the well known platforms since the platform will be at risk of prosecution if they host the ad.

Dav010

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The bank of the advertising host can be traced. If it is an offence to advertise an unlicenced property the person or company who hosted the ad will have to show that there was a licence attached to the property they were advertising. The idea is that people who want to do short term letting won't be able to use the well known platforms since the platform will be at risk of prosecution if they host the ad.

Have you read that article, or are you just ignoring it? I’m inclined to think Mr Shakespeare in his capacity as the person tasked with enforcement, knows more than you.

Do you think DCC are going to trace bank accounts, and banks are just going to hand over that information?

Unless the law has changed, advertising alone is not an offence and before you prosecute, you must first prove who is breaking the law, and that a law has been broken. If the guest does not stay, no offence has taken place, that is what Mr Shakespeare said, they must physically confirm the guest stayed, advertising/payment is not enough. It is not an offence for a 10 year old to pay for an alcoholic drink in a bar, on the other hand it is an offence for the owner to serve alcohol to the 10 year old.

3DataModem

My understanding of the planning laws (which this falls under) is that the complainant (DCC in this case) will have to demonstrate a breach unambiguously.

E.g.
Putting a barbers pole on your front room is not a planning violation. Cutting hair in your front room is not a planning violation. Taking a few quid from friends and friends-of-friends for materials for cutting hair in your front room is not a planning violation. However running a barber shop business from your front room IS a planning violation. Seeing people getting hair cut, seeing a pole, seeing money change hands, etc... might not be enough.

Perhaps an advertisement on Airbnb will be deemed enough, but there are plenty of large scale operators with money for lawyers, and that will tie up the 400k budget of the DCC for a long time.

We shall see what happens.

Claw Hammer

Dav010 wrote: »

Have you read that article, or are you just ignoring it? I’m inclined to think Mr Shakespeare in his capacity as the person tasked with enforcement, knows more than you.

Do you think DCC are going to trace bank accounts, and banks are just going to hand over that information?

Unless the law has changed, advertising alone is not an offence and before you prosecute, you must first prove who is breaking the law, and that a law has been broken. If the guest does not stay, no offence has taken place, that is what Mr Shakespeare said, they must physically confirm the guest stayed, advertising/payment is not enough. It is not an offence for a 10 year old to pay for an alcoholic drink in a bar, on the other hand it is an offence for the owner to serve alcohol to the 10 year old.

That relates to the current planning laws. There is to be a new offence of advertising. There is already an offence of advertising without citing the BER in the case of long term lets.

Dav010

Claw Hammer wrote: »

That relates to the current planning laws. There is to be a new offence of advertising. There is already an offence of advertising without citing the BER in the case of long term lets.

Where are you seeing that advertising alone will be an offence without proof of occupation? What if a tenant advertises or an ad is placed maliciously?

FAILSAFE 00

It sounds great but policing it will be a whole different ball game.

It will be interesting to watch over the coming weeks/months. We should see a drop in Airbnb listings if its working. I am highly skeptical.

Claw Hammer

Dav010 wrote: »

Where are you seeing that advertising alone will be an offence without proof of occupation? What if a tenant advertises or an ad is placed maliciously?

That advertising proposal is being studied. A tenant would have to provide proof of licensing to advertise. The idea is to kill Air bnb by choking off the advertising. Only very gullible people would book on an unregulated site an the hosts of the sites would not want to face prosecution. The current planning laws make prosecution difficult. The idea is to create an offence which is easy to prosecute.

Dav010

Claw Hammer wrote: »

That advertising proposal is being studied..

Ah, it’s being studied? Earlier you posted “That relates to the current planning laws. There is to be a new offence of advertising”

So in relation to advertising, the current legislation applies and a “study” might change this in the future. Can you provide a link to this study?, it would be an interesting piece of legislation.

GalwayGaillimh

Looks like July the 1st will be the end of it

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/airbnb-asks-for-delay-to-tighter-rules-on-lettings-v399lg6zd

dealhunter1985

GalwayGaillimh wrote: »

Looks like July the 1st will be the end of it

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/airbnb-asks-for-delay-to-tighter-rules-on-lettings-v399lg6zd

link is gated
can you copy and paste the article?