How hard is it to get the rolex you want

banie01 · 24-07-2019 5:57pm

Dante Delicious Magnum wrote: »

Blackbay 58 for sale in weirs to whoever, saw it today no relationship required, one in Applebies too and a Tudor GMT Pepsi (they have IWC, Brightling, Tudor which was news to me?).

I was just about to say pretty much the same thing.
Apart from Rolex there really isn't any other brand that suffers from such a restricted supply it seems.

The vast majority of other premium brands are available at short notice/immediately via most ADs

Samsonite 187 · 24-07-2019 6:01pm

fluffer wrote: »

That's certainly one way to put it, no matter how wrong you are!

I saved many thousands on my various watch purchases over the years. All because I was in a position to shop around.
I got 5 watches from 4 different countries, 2 from ADs, 2 from independents, and 1 from a personal seller. All bar one with my name on the papers.

I thought I was doing the right thing by refusing the excessive grey market prices, and I still do. Buying from them when it makes sense, and not when it doesnt seems the prudent thing to do. After all, my dealers didnt magic those watches into their stock; they were buying them from ADs and I was getting warranties from them.

I have some leverage with a planned purchase of watches and jewellery, I'm back in Europe and I am just trying to be strategic about this and not rush.

My thinking too; but I'll see.

@AmberGold
Thanks, and I appreciate this a solid offer, but I will decline. Best of luck; I'm sure you will get more than that.

Hey dude sorry if that came across as a personal attack. It really wasn't. It was meant as an overall vent. Wasnt having a dig. I have shopped around myself.

But you do have buying power. Pick a dealer that has your two watchs for 7-9k. Buy them from the same guy. Get to know him and I'm sure he will get you a batman at list.

What are the other two you are getting?

Cyrus · 24-07-2019 6:25pm

Samsonite 187 wrote: »

If you buy from the grey market because you can get the not so popular models cheaper than you can at the authorized dealer. The don't complain when a grey dealer is more expensive for a hot watch.

That's the market that's the way it is and you have helped to create it.

I mean there is a guy here that was complaining that he couldn't get an Aquanaut at retail in Ireland. But he has just sold his GMT blue now for profit.

Shops don't what you doing that. That's why they are being so picky with who they sell to.

I have a friend who got engaged at Christmas. Went to his local Jewellers bought a ring for I think for 4k. Put his name down for a Sub date. Got it in 3 months. He had been on a wait list in London for a year and still hasn't heard anything.

He bought a Tudor GMT last week and even got a bit of discount.

Has his name down for a GMT batman told he will have it next year.

They didn't force him to buy anything he didn't want. He wanted those things he went in shot the **** with the sales guy had the bants. And built up a relationship.

Sales guy now knows him. Knows he is a good egg is not flipping his watches. Happy to sell to him.

It's not hard to get these watches at list.

That lad has his priorities right

4K ring and an 8k watch for himself

Wibbs · 24-07-2019 6:26pm

Eoin wrote: »

Maybe in the same way that a Range Rover is no longer the preserve of well off farmers / land owners but more of an aspirational/luxury purchase (and a gravel driveway is as off-road as many get). I assume that most people back then didn't own a racing chronograph or pilot watch either, as they were specific tool watches.

I think it's as likely just a reflection that life is thankfully less formal these days in general.

Oh it's part of it E. I'd say more of it is down to the reinvention of the Swiss mechanical watch as luxury and jewellery for men* and the marketing of them as a nod to a simpler age of authentic manhood.

Dante Delicious Magnum wrote: »

Paul Pluta said in a recent video (he is a genius about 5% of the time) that all watches are dress watches these days. Discuss?????

Kinda F. They always were. Hell, the wristwatch itself was a hard sell to men at first, because it was seen as a jewellery item for women. The vast majority of men's watches sold in the 20th century were dress watches in gold or gold plate and following the fashion of the time. Outside of rare periods like times of war, or actually required for your job, tool watches were the minority of sales and most of them were usually the same dress watches in steel or chrome plate and when times like wars were over the tool watches went into a drawer to make way for another dress watch in gold or gold plate. If you look at photos of pilots in WW2 on any side it's hard enough to find a "pilots watch", many just wore 30's Tank style watches(never mind that it was navigators not pilots who really needed an accurate watch).

The tool watches made more inroads in the 1960's on the back of fans of sports like motor racing and diving. Even then the dress watch was the big seller. EG 60's Rolex Daytonas are rare simply because they made few enough of them because the market wasn't there and you couldn't give them away in the 80's because they didn't really look like a "proper Rolex" and didn't have a Rolex movement. Heuer were close to bankruptcy in the 60's and 70's and couldn't get arrested in markets like the US. When quartz came along it was mad expensive and what did they put the new mad expensive movements into? Not tool watches, dress watches. The first proper divers watch with a quartz movement didn't hit the market until five years after the tech came out. Though I would reckon quartz drove mechanical innovation. Quickset dates for one. Then the digitals came out and swept the world in popularity for over a decade and they were nearly always "tool watches" with loads of functions as the tech improved. Patek "I've got a world time bezel". Casio "Hold my beer"

Since the Swiss revival the dress watch expanded into the tool watch arena, near swallowed it up really. Why? One reason is the sense of "adventure" and the "authentic" attached to a tool watch. No gold wearing namby pamby olf fashioned dandy am I, oh no, I'm the hero of the office, a real man and all that. OK that's crudely wrought

but that's a lot of the marketing angle. Again Rolex were early on that case in the modern era with their 70's adverts of derring do up mountains and under the sea, though very early on they were all at it, trying to sell the "feminine" wristlet to "real men" using images and names of famous automobile drivers and biplane pilots(though again gold cases were the top of the range).

I would always rather spend my budget on something better that has already depreciated than something new. Horses for courses.

+1000. If I were in the sports Rolex market, no way would I be buying now TBH. It's way too feverish a market at the moment in my humble. With a hint of tulips. Gun to my head and I had to buy a new Rolex? I'd go for gold. Probably one of the Cellini range. Always liked them. When the market contracts - and mark me, it will - a hunk of gold has an intrinsic value and over the century of the male wristwatch a slim profile dress watch in gold with a pale face from a good name has been the most consistent fashion trend of all.

Samsonite 187 wrote: »

I really don't mean to come across as a troll or a dick.

But you really are in a situation of your own making.

If you jump from shop to shop and support grey market retailers. Then you are the cause.

:pac::pac::pac: Customers are the cause? Man, hats off to Swiss marketeers that so many people buy into this. The cause is an artificially restricted supply luxury good with artificial prices and truly genius marketing. The grey market only exists because of that.

*majority male. Women's watches weren't really affected by the so called quartz crisis and women never bought into the "mechanical is authentic" marketing the way the male market did. If you look at top end Pateks and Cartier for women mechanical tends to be in the minority and most are quartz. Convenience being a major selling point, especially for jewellery not so often worn.

Wibbs · 24-07-2019 6:34pm

Dante Delicious Magnum wrote: »

One beauty for me of having the Rolex I want is that I can get off this flipping Rolex train and buy some "interesting" watches.

+1 One of the rules of good financial sense, especially if there's s sniff of a bubble; sell when everyone else is buying, buy when everyone else is selling. Unless of course someone has always wanted Watch A and has put aside the cash and when they get it it'll be their "lifetime" watch to pass on to their kids. That's a different type of chap. If you're in the hobby though and likely to get bored six months after you swear "I'll never get rid of this"

then...

Samsonite 187 · 24-07-2019 6:44pm

Wibbs wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac: Customers are the cause? Man, hats off to Swiss marketeers that so many people buy into this. The cause is an artificially restricted supply luxury good with artificial prices and truly genius marketing. The grey market only exists because of that.

Man the supply is the same the demand has gone up.

There are 10 batman gmts on watchfinder and over 800 on chrono right now. Supply seems fine.

Two posters here the past few days have offered to sell or have already already sold theirs for 12k.

That is the cause of the grey market.

Rootsblower · 24-07-2019 7:09pm

Cyrus wrote: »

I thought you do want a Pepsi ?

I wanted the date just as well just got onto my man at watchfinder and had it in a week . Come to think of it I have built a relationship with them, my hulk , Portuguese and dj41 are all from there and they always give me excellent prices on part exchanges

Naw don’t want Pepsi,Hulk or Batman all a bit showy for me. I am using Pepsi as an example of price differential between AD and grey and what could be done with that differential.

I really like the BB58 even the fake rivets looks like a vintage sub.

When I went about the sub I’m receiving soon I bought the wife’s bracelet first and there was a lot of watch talk between myself and the sales assistant. About a week later they called and said they would have a sub for me in a month. I commented to them that when we were shooting the breeze about watches(not just Rolex) it felt like an interview they agreed and basically they want to get a feel for the person that they are not just gonna flip the watch.They also want to sell to local customers as in Irish people. They told me that they get constant calls from the U.S,China and India looking for SS Rolex.

Oafley Jones · 24-07-2019 7:12pm

Cyrus wrote: »

The 58 isn’t bad if only they didn’t have those rivets

I wouldn’t bother having one if I already had a sub. Sorry if it offends any one but the Tudor gmt is a shambles and is only sought after because people can’t get a blro .

And if you ask me, the jubilee belongs on the date just , looks wrong on the gmt

Outside of the initial rush, I don't think the GMT is actually moving much at all. BB58 isn't that hard to come by either.

Wibbs · 24-07-2019 7:18pm

Samsonite 187 wrote: »

Supply seems fine.

If the supply was fine there's be no grey market. The demand has gone up over the last couple of years because of a few factors; increased move of the luxury wristwatch into the mainstream would be one. Sites like Hodinkee would be drivers there, youtube another. Rolex marketing has always been top of the heap, so Rolex as a brand has been the "luxury Swiss watch"(a marketing term itself) most known in the public consciousness for about the last 30 years, so they naturally got the lions share of attention when it went more mainstream.

The grey market relies on the optimism in the market especially when it gets feverish. In the general market the item starts to grow in value beyond the intrinsic(with any luxury good that's kinda outa the gate, but all the big names have raised their prices over the last two decades). The "greater fools" theory holds that in an overly confident and fast growing market you will always find another buyer who will pay more for the item. Then you have the belief in the future investment potential. The idea that prices are rising and always have in the past(they haven't and this time it isn't different), so will continue and you better get in while you can. When that hits a critical mass of participants in the market as more and more head in the one direction the confidence goes through the roof, as does the scramble to buy and the price rises again. Add in the mainstream media noticing the trend, some even taking out loans to buy into the trend(though watch collectors selling off all their other pieces to buy is more in play so far). By the by, that lot above is a near picture perfect uphill part of the curve of an asset bubble...

CantGetNoSleep · 24-07-2019 7:19pm

How hard is it to get an Explorer II from an AD?

Cyrus · 24-07-2019 7:24pm

Rootsblower wrote: »

Naw don’t want Pepsi,Hulk or Batman all a bit showy for me. I am using Pepsi as an example of price differential between AD and grey and what could be done with that differential.

I really like the BB58 even the fake rivets looks like a vintage sub.

When I went about the sub I’m receiving soon I bought the wife’s bracelet first and there was a lot of watch talk between myself and the sales assistant. About a week later they called and said they would have a sub for me in a month. I commented to them that when we were shooting the breeze about watches(not just Rolex) it felt like an interview they agreed and basically they want to get a feel for the person that they are not just gonna flip the watch.They also want to sell to local customers as in Irish people. They told me that they get constant calls from the U.S,China and India looking for SS Rolex.

Personally I’m not into massaging the ego of a shop assistant

Interview my backside

Rootsblower · 24-07-2019 7:27pm

Cyrus wrote: »

Personally I’m not into massaging the ego of a shop assistant

Interview my backside

Didn’t massage anyone’s ego just talkin watches with them.

893bet · 24-07-2019 9:43pm

Dante Delicious Magnum wrote: »

I want is that I can get off this flipping Rolex train and buy some "interesting" watches.

This.

I profited recently from the madness (covered some of my losses over the last few years)....But I would much prefer to have been just able to get my money back or lose a little even.....and be able to walk into a shop and pick up another one with having to try and flirt with the salesperson or build a “relationship”. No point selling high if you then have to buy high! The current situation only suits those who can get a steady stream at retail price and sell for profit regularly. Watches are not scarce. Only scarce at retail. Much of the demand is false and will disappear given the right conditions. Global slow down will see a rapid shift when dealers dump stock.

Rolex have I would guess 8 or 9 models trading above retail (2 x blnr, chnr, blro, all steel Daytona, hulk, standard sub, new yaughtmaster, etc). Basel next year will see another one or two.....it can’t continue....it will settle.

I sold as I didn’t really like the watch in the end. I have concluded I don’t really like most of the Rolex “sports” range. The profit was only an added bonus. Looking for smaller, more discrete trinkets to waste invest my hard earned cash.

Always Tired · 24-07-2019 11:40pm

A few posts here seem to lend credence to the 'rolex are for douches' maxim

2shea · 25-07-2019 8:05am

The AD where I bought my 214270 in 2018,

Have told me they can get me a 2019 Sub no date, brand new in 6~10 weeks

Very happy about that.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 25-07-2019 9:21am

Always Tired wrote: »

A few posts here seem to lend credence to the 'rolex are for douches' maxim

yeah....I get that and its a real shame. I love Rolex, I love the watches and classic timeless designs. They are the Porsche 911 of the car world. You simply cannot go wrong.

I have strong thoughts on watch collecting especially in this "mid tier" level. I think that spending 12k or 20k or 8k on a watch is a lot of money, and I certainly am not going to grovel or interview with to some pointy shoes salesman who has never had that much cash in their bank account at one time. What I expect is this

Me : "I want a GMT2 Pepsi please"
Salesman : "OK sir, that is a very popular watch, we have a waiting list for that, At the moment the wait time is 12 months. Please leave a 2 grand non transferable deposit and your name will be put on the list number 54 and we will call you as soon as it is in"
Me: "Thats a long wait, but that sounds fair, here take my money"
Salesman "in the mean time Sir can I interest you in this Tudor......."

Instead what happens is that we all bicker and vie for favour with the AD. The AD treat us like an endless stream of suckers. Lads get perfectly nice but perfectly standard models and think they have won the lottery. Lads that have saught after or expensive models feel depressed that they are not getting offered the latest and greatest at list by the AD, they are cross that they can be very loyal to Rolex but unless they are loyal to a specific AD thats no good. The AD can now ring you and tell you you can have what was classically a dog of the range and you will jump for joy at the privilege.

People on the outside think that Rolex fanboi's are gullable and stupid...which is somewhat understandable and somewhat takes the shine off such a purchase.

fret_wimp2 · 25-07-2019 9:57am

Dante Delicious Magnum wrote: »

I certainly am not going to grovel or interview with to some pointy shoes salesman who has never had that much cash in their bank account at one time.
.

Wow.

whats in the sales mans account is irrelevant.
If you think this deeply about all the sales people you deal with, how do you buy anything?

I get what the sales guy is doing, he's leveraging his position of relative power in this situation to make extra sales/profits/commission. Making hay and all that. Its annoying, but i can see the angle.
If he has a product that is not desirable, we are all not rushing in to offer list price for it, he has to take a hit.

But his bank balance has as much to do with his as the price of turnips in china, or however the saying goes.

Wibbs · 25-07-2019 10:36am

The general principles of buying and selling go out the window with certain luxury goods. The customer fighting for the right to buy being one. That's generally in play to help with the rarity idea, but at the moment with the recent demand for Rolex gone mainstream it's gone a bit nuts.

Rootsblower · 25-07-2019 10:42am

Dante Delicious Magnum wrote: »

yeah....I get that and its a real shame. I love Rolex, I love the watches and classic timeless designs. They are the Porsche 911 of the car world. You simply cannot go wrong.

I have strong thoughts on watch collecting especially in this "mid tier" level. I think that spending 12k or 20k or 8k on a watch is a lot of money, and I certainly am not going to grovel or interview with to some pointy shoes salesman who has never had that much cash in their bank account at one time. What I expect is this

Me : "I want a GMT2 Pepsi please"
Salesman : "OK sir, that is a very popular watch, we have a waiting list for that, At the moment the wait time is 12 months. Please leave a 2 grand non transferable deposit and your name will be put on the list number 54 and we will call you as soon as it is in"
Me: "Thats a long wait, but that sounds fair, here take my money"
Salesman "in the mean time Sir can I interest you in this Tudor......."

Instead what happens is that we all bicker and vie for favour with the AD. The AD treat us like an endless stream of suckers. Lads get perfectly nice but perfectly standard models and think they have won the lottery. Lads that have saught after or expensive models feel depressed that they are not getting offered the latest and greatest at list by the AD, they are cross that they can be very loyal to Rolex but unless they are loyal to a specific AD thats no good. The AD can now ring you and tell you you can have what was classically a dog of the range and you will jump for joy at the privilege.

People on the outside think that Rolex fanboi's are gullable and stupid...which is somewhat understandable and somewhat takes the shine off such a purchase.

Totally agree but as others said it’s AD,s using their leverage to sell less desirable products. I had a sub date on the wrist in an AD in Tenerife in 2016 and could have got an 8% discount to boot. Didn’t have the cash in the bank would have had to use credit card and payback. I have the cash now but I don’t feel bad about spending a bit extra on the wife as I still spent less than if I went grey market plus it’s my name on the card(which is important to me sorry Cyrus)

It’ll be a brave new world for AD’s when the next recession rolls around. I for hope to use said recession to drive the advantage in my direction.

Cienciano · 25-07-2019 10:53am

Dante Delicious Magnum wrote: »

yeah....I get that and its a real shame. I love Rolex, I love the watches and classic timeless designs. They are the Porsche 911 of the car world. You simply cannot go wrong.

Imagine that 911 was going for double the normal retail value and people were still queuing up to buy them.

The idea of buying one now is crazy imho. I can see why retailers are doing what they're doing, they have bills to pay.

Rootsblower · 25-07-2019 10:58am

Cienciano wrote: »

Imagine that 911 was going for double the normal retail value and people were still queuing up to buy them.

The idea of buying one now is crazy imho. I can see why retailers are doing what they're doing, they have bills to pay.

911 GT can’t be bought unless you have previous history with the dealer I’ve read online

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 25-07-2019 1:56pm

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

Wow.

whats in the sales mans account is irrelevant.
If you think this deeply about all the sales people you deal with, how do you buy anything?

I get what the sales guy is doing, he's leveraging his position of relative power in this situation to make extra sales/profits/commission. Making hay and all that. Its annoying, but i can see the angle.
If he has a product that is not desirable, we are all not rushing in to offer list price for it, he has to take a hit.

But his bank balance has as much to do with this situation as the price of turnips in china, or however the saying goes.

Hey now, hold your outrage and dont quote me out of context, we have fallen out before with you doing that.

The suggestion I was countering clearly was that in order for you to be deemed worthy of getting a stupid watch, the person working in the AD is interviewing you and you are licking their arse to ingratiate yourself. They are judging if you are worthy.

My point is that these sales people are not in a position to do that (I tried to phrase it more humorously assuming I am dealing with friends here and not the easily offended) either from a watch knowledge point of view nor do they value the watches in the same way as we do, they see us as stupid sheep following the trends. We are having a conversation about grey dealers versus AD and old versus new, so my point obviously is that I would rather deal with a grey market dealer with a nice watch on his wrist (money where mouth is, and all the Indy dealers I deal with all have lovely watches themselves and a deep knowledge) and a good knowledge of watches who can advise me on a purchase, than the average AD young fella that not interested in me because I am not Asian. Last time I bought new in a AD the fellow got fired a few week later so where was my good will then? My wife bought much much jewellery off a sales assistant in one AD over the years and she has since retired...wheres my kudos now...?

When I buy anything of value, I want the person selling it to have at least two of the following things. AD's have none as far as I can see, maybe if I licked upped more? But I would rather pay the grey market difference or get something else.

1. The Item to sell.
2. The knowledge on the item.
3. The will to sell it to me

I refer to the design of Rolex being akin to a 911 (unchanging, recognisable and timeless) rather than the business model. You can have any model Porsche you want if you have the cash except the limited edition 911 R, you will wait for RS cars too especially when they are just released but generally supply is grand if you have the cash. In Ireland we get good allocation that is never really totally sold due to the VRT robbery...so if you have 500k you can have a GT2

fret_wimp2 · 25-07-2019 2:11pm

Dante Delicious Magnum wrote: »

Hey now, hold your outrage and dont quote me out of context, we have fallen out before with you doing that.

The suggestion I was countering clearly was that in order for you to be deemed worthy of getting a stupid watch, the person working in the AD is interviewing you and you are licking their arse to ingratiate yourself. They are judging if you are worthy.

My point is that these sales people are not in a position to do that (I tried to phrase it more humorously assuming I am dealing with friends here and not the easily offended)

back at ya, this isnt the first time in the past week you have measured worth based on money. I wasnt easily offended last time, i was justly offended that you insinuated that my dads watches he may or may not leave me are worthless.

here, youre taking a situation and making it petty by insinuating that your not going to partake in the interview process partly because of how much the sales man may be worth.

Call it humor, call it out of context but its clear how you measure people and things.

funkyouup · 25-07-2019 2:20pm

Please do the world a favour and lock this heap of ****e.

username?! · 25-07-2019 3:23pm

For Porsche, I can understand their business model. You can buy any entry level model with ease, but our "better, more expensive, exclusive" models are only for repeat customers.

Rolex has done the opposite here, the "entry level" sports watches are the hardest to find. People are drooling over a SS piece that is worth 8k but ignoring PM pieces that cost 4 times as much.

What they are doing, is making "entry" into the Rolex world harder for the "ordinary person" who wants to buy 1 or 2 watches in their lifetime. This was "confirmed" to me when I asked the question about the shortage to an AD in Dublin who responded by telling me Rolex are unhappy with the clientele that are purchasing SS models.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 25-07-2019 3:39pm

Firstly I never insulted your dads watches, I did rightly guess that you had not been left watches as you saw no value in them beyond your own death. Good you were waiting in the long grass to attack me rather than the arguement...

Secondly worth is always monetary, value is not. And when it comes to discussions on buying Rolex new and used money does come I to it. And the old adage is buy the seller.

Thirdly I am not insinuating I will not partake in an interview process to buy unnecessary luxury goods. I am overtly saying it. I will not.

If talking money is too crass I would suggest the "how hard is it to get the Rolex you want" thread will anger you.

Wibbs · 25-07-2019 4:05pm

username?! wrote: »

For Porsche, I can understand their business model. You can buy any entry level model with ease, but our "better, more expensive, exclusive" models are only for repeat customers.

Rolex has done the opposite here, the "entry level" sports watches are the hardest to find. People are drooling over a SS piece that is worth 8k but ignoring PM pieces that cost 4 times as much.

Yup, but like I said U, Rolex are absolute masters of marketing and considering that the Swiss watch industry marketing overall is in the top bracket anyway, it takes some genius to be king among kings. Plus the SS models have the wider profit margin for Rolex and other makers so there's that too. Just like there is a bigger profit margin with mechanical over quartz, so generally speaking brands would much rather sell you a mechanical rather than quartz and an SS model than an 18kt gold model.

What they are doing, is making "entry" into the Rolex world harder for the "ordinary person" who wants to buy 1 or 2 watches in their lifetime.

Indeed U, though I suspect that the vast bulk of the current demand is coming from existing watch hobbyists, especially the newer folks to the field, rather than the chap or chappess buying the one lifetime watch. There would be the Asian market too, but IIRC that has contracted from a peak a couple of years ago.

This was "confirmed" to me when I asked the question about the shortage to an AD in Dublin who responded by telling me Rolex are unhappy with the clientele that are purchasing SS models.

Bless. And a bit odd considering that their gold models still have the old sniff of being bought by car salesmen and wideboys with gold teeth. I would have thought their SS models are much more the ordinary more discerning chap with some extra spending money clientele base? Though I would take AD's tales with a pinch of salt.

username?! · 25-07-2019 4:12pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Though I would take AD's tales with a pinch of salt.

100% agree. I'm just repeating what their thought process was, on that given second.

Anyway, my search for a SubDate at retail continues...

fret_wimp2 · 25-07-2019 4:23pm

Dante Delicious Magnum wrote: »

Firstly I never insulted your dads watches, I did rightly guess that you had not been left watches as you saw no value in them beyond your own death. Good you were waiting in the long grass to attack me rather than the arguement...

Secondly worth is always monetary, value is not. And when it comes to discussions on buying Rolex new and used money does come I to it. And the old adage is buy the seller.

Thirdly I am not insinuating I will not partake in an interview process to buy unnecessary luxury goods. I am overtly saying it. I will not.

If talking money is too crass I would suggest the "how hard is it to get the Rolex you want" thread will anger you.

You were called on it by more than just me. maybe everyone in that thread except you was wrong. its the only possible conclusion.

Wibbs · 25-07-2019 4:25pm

OK folks, not this again please.

How hard is it to get the rolex you want

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