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Garda shoots himself in the foot

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245

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    #32
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Still not sure why everyone is debating the pros and cons of having a chambered round, or not. Its somewhat irrelevant without proper trigger discipline as this poor sod found out.
    Annabel Narrow Kindle wrote: »
    ..... - do you know which 226s the ASU use? Are they DAO?
    They use, afaik, the P226 and/or Walther P99c.

    Not too sure on the Walthers, but the Sigs have a decocking lever, as Grizz said, that drops the hammer without striking the firing pin. Means you can have a round chambered and still fire the pistol, albeit with a noticeable amount more force, for the first round and then she is back to a "normal" semi auto for each following round. Difference in trigger weight is from 4.5 - 5 lbs in the decoked position, to about 2lb in the cocked position.

    I've highlighted it on mine:

    6034073
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    #33
    rd1izb7lvpuksx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭rd1izb7lvpuksx


    Cass wrote: »

    Not too sure on the Walthers, but the Sigs have a decocking lever, as Grizz said, that drops the hammer without striking the firing pin.

    DAO 226s, often used by police forces, don't have decockers, hence the question.


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    #34
    parttimeadult
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭parttimeadult


    Don't suppose anyone knows which detective it was?


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    #35
    Heckler
    Registered Users Posts: 3,322 ✭✭✭Heckler


    parttimeadult wrote: »
    Don't suppose anyone knows which detective it was?

    Probably wasn't a detective and more likely a member of the ARU/ERU. What difference does it make who it was ? And we are never going to find out anyway nor should we.


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    #36
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    parttimeadult wrote: »
    Don't suppose anyone knows which detective it was?

    He's the one who can see the floor through hole in his foot.


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    #37
    .243
    Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭.243


    Chambered round or not,
    heavily trained or basic instruction on firearms,
    a finger was on the trigger,end of.


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    #38
    shootemall
    Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭shootemall


    One good thing that has come from this is the reduction in his carbon footprint


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    #39
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Annabel Narrow Kindle wrote: »
    DAO 226s, often used by police forces, don't have decockers, hence the question.

    I understand that, but An Gardai, iirc, use the standard model P226 (for those using the Sig) which has the feature.

    My Godfather used to be in Serious Crime and this was his service weapon.
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    #40
    oldgit1897
    Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭oldgit1897


    We have all been at the pistol range, where people who have never set eyes on a pistol, let alone handled or shot one have turned up with a friend or are maybe new members of the club. The first thing thats DRILLED into them is NEVER point a pistol at anyone, and the second is when you pick a pistol up, keep your finger out of the trigger guard and off the trigger, unless you intend to shoot.

    I would have assumed gun handling and safety would have been DRILLED non-stop into anyone carrying a firearm to protect the public. After all its their full time job. Sadly in typical Irish tradition, this appears not to be the case.


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    #41
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I have no doubt An Gardaí get training, and continuous training at that, otherwise they wouldn't be fit to carry a firearm in the first place. So in their defense i wouldn't say they are untrained or poorly trained.

    My opinion on this single matter is lapse of concentration coupled with, i suppose the best word i can think of is familiarity.

    When any one of us, non Gardaí, are on the range we have no choice but to continuously follow the rules because there are ROs present at all times. Any infractions of the rules carry much greater risks because of the higher volume of people in a smaller area so no range would allow us to carry a loaded pistol outside of the firing area, let alone around the range. Hell if you're caught loading ammo into a mag in the safety area you're in for a paddling.

    Gardai, due to the nature of their job, don't have this continuous "over the shoulder" supervision. Granted they are endowed with a much higher level of trust because of this absence of constant supervision, and their training should reflect that, but one lapse in concentration and an over inflated sense of "i know what i'm doing" and this is when mistakes happen.

    Problem with firearms is mistake generally involve serious injury and it's why i always say the shooting community should be applauded for our safety record which is all self policed.
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    #42
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,951 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Annabel Narrow Kindle wrote: »
    Even the Israelis don't keep their chambers clear in military or police applications. If you are in a situation where you need to carry a weapon, that second may count, and it's only as dangerous as the carrier. None of these weapons discharge themselves.

    On your first paragraph, agreed. On your second, I'll defer to your knowledge - do you know which 226s the ASU use? Are they DAO?

    Actually,they do.They developed the very unique method of Israeli point and shoot and carry.They carry all safties OFF and on an empty chamber. It was developed from their Mossad"Kidon"[Bayonet] hit teams.If you had to bump off someone out foregin,you might have ended up with any sort of a yoke to do the job,so you didnt have time for long weapons fammilarisation,so it was easier to just disengage all safties and carry empty chamber.Practise ,a draw and racking while bringing up onto target while just pointing the gun like you would your index finger and you would be surprised how quick you can get.

    Needless to say,utterly different situation from leisurely punching of paper on a range that isnt going to shoot back at you,from 20foot or less.

    Last SIG I eyeballed on the ASU down here in Limerick ,was a 226 with hammer.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #43
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,951 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    [
    QUOTE=Cass;110740638]I have no doubt An Gardaí get training, and continuous training at that, otherwise they wouldn't be fit to carry a firearm in the first place. So in their defense i wouldn't say they are untrained or poorly trained.

    Not when they have apprently 11 of these fine ranges.Made in NI and cost apparently £1.3 million a pop:eek: http://www.generalranges.com .So you would think that alright.But then you can have "All the gear and no idea !" too unfortuneatly.

    Gardai, due to the nature of their job, don't have this continuous "over the shoulder" supervision. Granted they are endowed with a much higher level of trust because of this absence of constant supervision, and their training should reflect that, but one lapse in concentration and an over inflated sense of "i know what i'm doing" and this is when mistakes happen.

    Might be something to this as well.
    If you consider some disasters like the bank robbery at Athy in the late 1980s.The Abbeyleix bank heist Dec 2001 where one of their own was killed by "friendly fire".

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #44
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Cass wrote:
    Problem with firearms is mistake generally involve serious injury and it's why i always say the shooting community should be applauded for our safety record which is all self policed.


    I 100% agree with this post. Sure, there is the odd mistake made - crossing a fence with a loaded gun, that kind of thing - but range safety, with RCOs AND careful disciplined shooters means that dangerous mistakes are a real rarity.


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    #45
    AbdulAbhaile
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭AbdulAbhaile


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »

    Might be something to this as well.
    If you consider some disasters like the bank robbery at Athy in the late 1980s.The Abbeyleix bank heist Dec 2001 where one of their own was killed by "friendly fire".

    Didn't a suspect get shot in the face relatively recently by a negligent discharge.

    How can these issues be resolved or is it just part and parcel for armed police?


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    #46
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Happens over here in mainland yUK as well. A few years back a police officer was shot dead in the driver's seat of his patrol car by another police officer demonstrating a 12g windshield-penetrating 'training' round. Yet another involved an indoor classroom incident where the officer demonstrating a .44 magnum revolver loaded a live round and fatally shot another police officer on a 'firearms familiarisation course'.

    And the locker room of at least one police station in the Met area has a locker with more than one keyhole....


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    #47
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,951 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    AbdulAbhaile wrote: »
    Didn't a suspect get shot in the face relatively recently by a negligent discharge.

    How can these issues be resolved or is it just part and parcel for armed police?

    Think it is P&P of police life.Plenty of cases globally of negligent discharges ,and bulue on blue incidents happening every year,so it is unfair just to pick on AGS.We only do because they are our locals and that they are mostly still,an unarmed police force.So it proably strikes home abit stonger for us.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #48
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Interesting there was a delay in the reporting of a raid where firearm was recovered in Limerick on Wednesday.


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    #49
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Chiparus wrote: »
    Interesting there was a delay in the reporting of a raid where firearm was recovered in Limerick on Wednesday.

    I'm guessing that it depends who ;lost it' in the fust place, eh? :cool:


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    #50
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Chiparus wrote: »
    Interesting there was a delay in the reporting of a raid where firearm was recovered in Limerick on Wednesday.

    This? From Friday.
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    #51
    ct5amr2ig1nfhp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,019 ✭✭✭ct5amr2ig1nfhp


    I fully expect that Garda to get a nice 6 figure compensation claim. Including extended leave for PTSD.


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    #52
    The pigeon man
    Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭The pigeon man


    Cass wrote: »
    This? From Friday.

    Interesting they found two .22 calibre pistols. I wonder were pistols once legally held by someone else. It wouldn't be the ideal calibre for criminal activity, unless they wanted something quiet.


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    #53
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,254 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Cass wrote: »
    This? From Friday.

    The raid was on Wednesday, but not reported until Friday- which is unusual I would have thought.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/drugs-ammunition-and-guns-seized-in-louth-tallaght-and-limerick-1.3961916?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-and-law%2Fdrugs-ammunition-and-guns-seized-in-louth-tallaght-and-limerick-1.3961916


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    #54
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,459 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    That's iust when the papers ran it, they were on the Garda FB page before then.


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    #55
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,951 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    To add insult to injury... Just found out..The Garda that shot himself in the foot,was a Garda firearms instructor!!:eek::rolleyes:

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #56
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    'Don't do as I do, just do as I tell you....'


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    #57
    Hobosan
    Registered Users Posts: 582 ✭✭✭Hobosan


    tac foley wrote: »
    'Don't do as I do, just do as I tell you....'

    Yep, advising people not to shoot themselves in in the foot the whole time. Bloody hypocrites.


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    #58
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    Annabel Narrow Kindle wrote: »
    If you can't carry a weapon loaded and ready to fire, you shouldn't be carrying a weapon at all. Many police forces, including some Garda units, use striker-fired pistol where decocking isn't an option once loaded.
    Pistols are routinely carried on the body by plain-clothes Gardaí - you often see the telltale bulge under their jackets. I would hope they're carrying loaded, and ready to fire, otherwise they're not much use.
    Annabel Narrow Kindle wrote: »
    If you have reason to be carrying a weapon (outside of training), there should be a round in the chamber. If not, the weapon is as much a liability as a defence. Some organisations in Ireland do not follow this rule, and some do.
    As it should be, if they have reason to be armed at all.
    You're making a lot of assumptions. If they aren't carrying with a round in the chamber, they are liable to be disarmed in ambush, and are better off unarmed. No personnel should ever be travelling with a weapon locked in their vehicle without also carrying a sidearm - otherwise it would be trivial to disarm them.


    I probably shouldnt be replying, but this sounds like Walter Mitty fantasist nonsense, the highlighted and the rest, as a former member of the Defense Forces, what you are saying sounds like tripe, what organisations? how many times have you heard of the Gardai being ambushed? I cant say what the Gardai are doing regarding how they carry their firearms, although this and other incidents Ive come across gives me little regard for their firearm handling skills, mainly your suggestion that its necessary to be going around with a chambered round. Plain and simple I hope they arent going about like that, especially with their tendency for NDs.


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    #59
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    AbdulAbhaile wrote: »
    Didn't a suspect get shot in the face relatively recently by a negligent discharge.

    How can these issues be resolved or is it just part and parcel for armed police?


    One Garda got shot by a colleague armed with a shotgun, not sure if thats the incident you're referring to? I looked it up after and could find no record of it reported, but I recal it was online.
    Issues resolved? Id say with training, which leads to how is the training? I'd question that, it seems like its lax if they are managing what they do. You would think that a trained professional would only be putting their finger on the trigger in certain circumstances, training at the range and then oly what they are trained for. Whatever their training is, it doesnt sound like it leads to a very disciplined force (the element that handle firearms) or regard for firearms handling.


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    #60
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    To add insult to injury... Just found out..The Garda that shot himself in the foot,was a Garda firearms instructor!!:eek::rolleyes:



    This little piggy went to market.
    This little piggy stayed home.
    This little piggy had roast beef. ...
    And this little piggy wasn't there any more because his owner couldn't use basic common sense procedures


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    #61
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    To add insult to injury... Just found out..The Garda that shot himself in the foot,was a Garda firearms instructor!!:eek::rolleyes:

    The latch on the boot of the gun must have been faulty. :D


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