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Garda shoots himself in the foot

  • 19-07-2019 10:26am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭ shootemall


    Oops !
    He must not have attended a safety course in his local rfd


«1345

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,334 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    I'm sorry,but after listening to so many sanctiminious statements in district courts from Garda ballistics and cheif supers about only "qualified and well trained Army or Gardai should have access to large capacity high caliber handguns or "assault rifles"!" This is just too funny and a self fullfiling prophesy.:P:D:D:D:D:D:D

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/probe-launched-after-garda-accidentally-shoots-himself-in-the-foot-38327400.html

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Zero trigger discipline.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 10,853 Mod ✭✭✭✭ MarkR


    Shot while on duty. He'll be on the pigs back. Forgive the pun.


  • Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭ markad1


    Reminds me of this


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,334 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭ shootemall


    I imagine the stick he will get will be more painful
    Than his “foot injury” (received in the line of duty of course)


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,066 ✭✭✭✭ Odyssey 2005


    shootemall wrote: »
    I imagine the stick he will get will be more painful
    Than his “foot injury” (received in the line of duty of course)

    I'm sure the compensation will dull the pain.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭ Topgear on Dave


    Shot himself in the foot in the car. F**k me.

    Spinning about with his weapon cocked, eejit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,143 ✭✭✭ Auguste Comte


    Shot himself in the foot in the car. F**k me.

    Spinning about with his weapon cocked, eejit.

    Highly trained professional eejit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭ mattser


    Cass wrote: »
    Zero trigger discipline.

    Seeing as you're a shooting mod, would you care to elaborate on your curt reply.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭ shootemall


    mattser wrote: »
    Seeing as you're a shooting mod, would you care to elaborate on your curt reply.

    Oh oh cass ur in big trouble now ,


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 40,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    mattser wrote: »
    Seeing as you're a shooting mod, would you care to elaborate on your curt reply.

    "Finger on wood" is one of the first rules every civilian firearms owner learns, right after "The gun is always loaded". It's a corollary to the longer-winded rule that once fired, the shooter cannot stop or direct a bullet so you must always know where the barrel is pointing and you always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire (and you don't load the firearm until the last possible practical moment, but you also don't rely on your assumption that the chamber is empty).

    You do not normally sit in a car with a loaded firearm in your hands, especially when specialist units have special storage facilities in the back of their marked vehicles, because doing so leads to negligent discharges like this one.

    Precisely what happened would be very interesting to know; I have almost no doubt that we will never find out, in the same way that we will never find out the precise details of the actions of the garda from a specialist firearms unit who allegedly placed his firearm in said special storage in the vehicle whose open/closed status is displayed to the driver by indicator light, only for said loaded submachine gun to go bouncing down the road outside of the car without any warning, to be picked up by a member of the general public before the gardai could recover it, and subsequently hand it in at the nearest garda station.


    And yes, we're being overly fussy about the standards we hold armed police to - they are armed police. Their firearms are intended to shoot people, members of the general public, a group which you and I are members of. It is in everyone's best interest to demand that AGS are held to a high standard, in the same way that AGS demand firearms owners are held to a high standard, but in this case we have more cause. Someone being injured by a civilian firearm is an astonishingly rare event in this country; but AGS firearms are actually intended to be used as weapons against other people. It's a greater level of risk and demands a higher standard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭ mattser


    Sparks wrote: »
    "Finger on wood" is one of the first rules every civilian firearms owner learns, right after "The gun is always loaded". It's a corollary to the longer-winded rule that once fired, the shooter cannot stop or direct a bullet so you must always know where the barrel is pointing and you always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire (and you don't load the firearm until the last possible practical moment, but you also don't rely on your assumption that the chamber is empty).

    You do not normally sit in a car with a loaded firearm in your hands, especially when specialist units have special storage facilities in the back of their marked vehicles, because doing so leads to negligent discharges like this one.

    Precisely what happened would be very interesting to know; I have almost no doubt that we will never find out, in the same way that we will never find out the precise details of the actions of the garda from a specialist firearms unit who allegedly placed his firearm in said special storage in the vehicle whose open/closed status is displayed to the driver by indicator light, only for said loaded submachine gun to go bouncing down the road outside of the car without any warning, to be picked up by a member of the general public before the gardai could recover it, and subsequently hand it in at the nearest garda station.


    And yes, we're being overly fussy about the standards we hold armed police to - they are armed police. Their firearms are intended to shoot people, members of the general public, a group which you and I are members of. It is in everyone's best interest to demand that AGS are held to a high standard, in the same way that AGS demand firearms owners are held to a high standard, but in this case we have more cause. Someone being injured by a civilian firearm is an astonishingly rare event in this country; but AGS firearms are actually intended to be used as weapons against other people. It's a greater level of risk and demands a higher standard.

    Unless and until you do, you are only guessing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭ Annabel Narrow Kindle


    Shot himself in the foot in the car. F**k me.

    Spinning about with his weapon cocked, eejit.


    If you can't carry a weapon loaded and ready to fire, you shouldn't be carrying a weapon at all. Many police forces, including some Garda units, use striker-fired pistol where decocking isn't an option once loaded.

    Sparks wrote: »
    You do not normally sit in a car with a loaded firearm in your hands, especially when specialist units have special storage facilities in the back of their marked vehicles, because doing so leads to negligent discharges like this one.


    Pistols are routinely carried on the body by plain-clothes Gardaí - you often see the telltale bulge under their jackets. I would hope they're carrying loaded, and ready to fire, otherwise they're not much use.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 40,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    If you can't carry a weapon loaded and ready to fire, you shouldn't be carrying a weapon at all.
    First off, you do not walk around _all the time_ with a firearm loaded and ready to fire.
    Secondly, that whole "condition one" nonsense is not standard practice in the majority of the world's police forces.
    Thirdly, we're not talking about plain-clothes gardai, we're talking about a dedicated armed support unit that use marked cars and are in uniform.
    Fourthly, we're talking about armed police who are trained to fire at members of the public, in urban areas, not on a firing range with danger areas and safeguards. Demanding higher standards isn't onerous, it's sensible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭ shootemall


    Gsoc will get to the bottom of this ,
    I can’t see him getting in to much trouble it was obviously self defense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭ Annabel Narrow Kindle


    Sparks wrote: »
    First off, you do not walk around _all the time_ with a firearm loaded and ready to fire.
    Secondly, that whole "condition one" nonsense is not standard practice in the majority of the world's police forces.
    Thirdly, we're not talking about plain-clothes gardai, we're talking about a dedicated armed support unit that use marked cars and are in uniform.
    Fourthly, we're talking about armed police who are trained to fire at members of the public, in urban areas, not on a firing range with danger areas and safeguards. Demanding higher standards isn't onerous, it's sensible.


    Garda weapons are always loaded when they're carried, and members of ASUs routinely carry their sidearms. I have never come across a member of a police force that carries a weapon unloaded - it does not happen.


    SOPs vary on whether to carry with a round chambered, but anyone who carries a weapon should be capable of carrying a weapon with a round chambered safelty.



    Obviously an ND is not up to standard. That's the issue - not that an armed Garda was in fact armed.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 40,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    Garda weapons are always loaded when they're carried, and members of ASUs routinely carry their sidearms. I have never come across a member of a police force that carries a weapon unloaded - it does not happen.
    I think we are differing on whether or not it is normal for a Garda to go around _all the time_ with a round _in the chamber_. (Hence the "condition one" mention above)
    Having rounds in the magazine with the bolt closed and an empty chamber (for fire-on-bolt-closed firearms) is a very different thing to having the safety catch be the one thing between you and a new hole in your boot.
    SOPs vary on whether to carry with a round chambered, but anyone who carries a weapon should be capable of carrying a weapon with a round chambered safelty.
    We are, thankfully, nowhere near the level of mayhem and anarchy that would justify Gardai walking around with a loaded firearm with a round chambered _all the time_. It's Dublin, not Mega City One.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭ meathstevie


    Sparks wrote: »
    "Finger on wood" is one of the first rules every civilian firearms owner learns, right after "The gun is always loaded". It's a corollary to the longer-winded rule that once fired, the shooter cannot stop or direct a bullet so you must always know where the barrel is pointing and you always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire (and you don't load the firearm until the last possible practical moment, but you also don't rely on your assumption that the chamber is empty).

    You do not normally sit in a car with a loaded firearm in your hands, especially when specialist units have special storage facilities in the back of their marked vehicles, because doing so leads to negligent discharges like this one.

    Precisely what happened would be very interesting to know; I have almost no doubt that we will never find out, in the same way that we will never find out the precise details of the actions of the garda from a specialist firearms unit who allegedly placed his firearm in said special storage in the vehicle whose open/closed status is displayed to the driver by indicator light, only for said loaded submachine gun to go bouncing down the road outside of the car without any warning, to be picked up by a member of the general public before the gardai could recover it, and subsequently hand it in at the nearest garda station.


    And yes, we're being overly fussy about the standards we hold armed police to - they are armed police. Their firearms are intended to shoot people, members of the general public, a group which you and I are members of. It is in everyone's best interest to demand that AGS are held to a high standard, in the same way that AGS demand firearms owners are held to a high standard, but in this case we have more cause. Someone being injured by a civilian firearm is an astonishingly rare event in this country; but AGS firearms are actually intended to be used as weapons against other people. It's a greater level of risk and demands a higher standard.

    Not wanting to divulge any actual detail Sparks but routinely carrying a firearm with a round chambered in accordance with service SOP's is standard practice with some law enforcement people on this island.

    I agree with you that ND's, especially ones leading to injury, need to be subjected to close scrutiny not so much from a blame game point of view as from a public safety point of view.

    If the individual made a booboo that's what it is, he/she received plenty of punishment already and will no doubt receive plenty of sniggering as well. If there's a general shortfall in training or handling procedures there's a public safety issue.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 40,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    Not wanting to divulge any actual detail Sparks but routinely carrying a firearm with a round chambered in accordance with service SOP's is standard practice with some law enforcement people on this island.
    But not the ones riding around in marked cars. The entire point of them is that they don't spend all their time with rounds in the chamber; they're called in to known situations instead of being surprised in the middle of the day without any time to be more prepared.
    If there's a general shortfall in training or handling procedures there's a public safety issue.
    This. Times several million.
    This time, the bullet went through the shooter's foot.
    Last time, it went into the grounds of aras an uachtarain, or into a fellow Garda's femoral artery (thankfully a blank so it was just all the shrapnel). The number of NDs caused by acting the eejit should never rise above zero.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭ Annabel Narrow Kindle


    Sparks wrote: »
    I think we are differing on whether or not it is normal for a Garda to go around _all the time_ with a round _in the chamber_. (Hence the "condition one" mention above)
    Having rounds in the magazine with the bolt closed and an empty chamber (for fire-on-bolt-closed firearms) is a very different thing to having the safety catch be the one thing between you and a new hole in your boot.



    We are, thankfully, nowhere near the level of mayhem and anarchy that would justify Gardai walking around with a loaded firearm with a round chambered _all the time_. It's Dublin, not Mega City One.


    If you have reason to be carrying a weapon (outside of training), there should be a round in the chamber. If not, the weapon is as much a liability as a defence. Some organisations in Ireland do not follow this rule, and some do.


    Not wanting to divulge any actual detail Sparks but routinely carrying a firearm with a round chambered in accordance with service SOP's is standard practice with some law enforcement people on this island.


    As it should be, if they have reason to be armed at all.

    Sparks wrote: »
    But not the ones riding around in marked cars. The entire point of them is that they don't spend all their time with rounds in the chamber; they're called in to known situations instead of being surprised in the middle of the day without any time to be more prepared.


    You're making a lot of assumptions. If they aren't carrying with a round in the chamber, they are liable to be disarmed in ambush, and are better off unarmed. No personnel should ever be travelling with a weapon locked in their vehicle without also carrying a sidearm - otherwise it would be trivial to disarm them.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    mattser wrote: »
    Seeing as you're a shooting mod, would you care to elaborate on your curt reply.
    Not sure what my being a Mod has to do with my ability to reply to a thread/post, but seeing as you ignored the comments calling the Garda in question names, and mocking him, and quoted me while highlighting i'm a Mod i assume you have an axe to grind so i'll oblige (i've used pictures so there is no more confusion on your part)

    Trigger discipline

    6034073

    Zero trigger discipline

    6034073

    Proper trigger control explained

    6034073

    If all else fails this should explain it

    6034073
    mattser wrote: »
    Unless and until you do, you are only guessing.
    Triggers don't pull themselves.
    shootemall wrote: »
    I can’t see him getting in to much trouble it was obviously self defense.
    Heh, heh. Should plant a knife on his foot, and claim self defense. :D

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 40,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    You're making a lot of assumptions
    Professionalism being the primary one. ARUs are supposed to operate as support units. They are not supposed to be wandering around high-risk areas listening to their spotify playlist, getting surprised and having to defend themselves with no warning. So the need to have an immediately ready to fire firearm to hand isn't supposed to exist if they're fulfilling their role correctly. Their operating regieme is to give them that time to operate the slide of their firearm before having to fire back, not to make their lives easier, but to lower the risk to the public caused by making a dogs breakfast of the job. This idea that they're wandering about Dublin about to be attacked by ninja drug dealers at any moment is not only stupid, it's a public safety risk.

    And frankly, given the hoops *we* have to jump through to mitigate risks to the public, I see no argument here that says public safety should be disregarded by armed police when we've seen far too many demonstrations of what happens when you do that both in this country and in others with consequences ranging from potential injuries to completely innocent people being shot multiple times due to mistaken identity or faulty threat evaluation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭ mattser


    Cass wrote: »
    Not sure what my being a Mod has to do with my ability to reply to a thread/post, but seeing as you ignored the comments calling the Garda in question names, and mocking him, and quoted me while highlighting i'm a Mod i assume you have an axe to grind so i'll oblige (i've used pictures so there is no more confusion on your part)

    Trigger discipline

    6034073

    Zero trigger discipline

    6034073

    Proper trigger control explained

    6034073

    If all else fails this should explain it

    6034073

    Triggers don't pull themselves.

    Heh, heh. Should plant a knife on his foot, and claim self defense. :D

    No axe at all.
    Thanks for the elongated version.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,184 ✭✭✭✭ BattleCorp


    If you have reason to be carrying a weapon (outside of training), there should be a round in the chamber. If not, the weapon is as much a liability as a defence.

    It takes a second to rack the firearm. Stupid to be going around 100% of the time with a round in the chamber. Dangerous and unnecessary.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭ tac foley


    'The officer, stationed in the south-west of the country, was injured after his weapon discharged while he was in a garda patrol vehicle.'

    1. The weapon did NOT 'discharge', it WAS 'discharged'. The trigger was activated to do this.

    2. The word 'garda' gets a capital 'G'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,334 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Pistols are routinely carried on the body by plain-clothes Gardaí - you often see the telltale bulge under their jackets. I would hope they're carrying loaded, and ready to fire, otherwise they're not much use.

    Nothing wrong with that.Provided you have correct trigger disipline and saftey drilled into you.In this case I feel that maybe a drop leg holster might have some part to play here too.


    Ref Decocking and striker fired issued sidearms.
    Not in this case.ASU use the SIG/SAUER 226.Which has a decocking mechanism..

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,073 ✭✭✭✭ Larbre34


    Why is there an assumption that it was his pistol that discharged? Far more likely to be the MP7 he would have had on his lap inside the vehicle no?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭ John_Rambo


    Regarding the gun that fell out of the boot of the cop car in Dublin city.... I reckon it was on the roof of the car.

    Every year I drive similar vehicles on undulated, soft sand bumpy beaches with the boot open with lots of gear in the back, surf boards half in, half out, wetsuits, leashes, harnesses, cameras, big bags etc... the only things that escape are light things that catch the wind like raincoats & empty holdalls. Not heavy items. And I presume those guns are heavy.

    Even if the boot of a 90k vehicle did "pop" open, I doubt a heavy thing like a gun would fall out from driving over the LUAS lines or catch the wind.

    Edit.. as above, I don't think we'll ever find out what happened.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭ Annabel Narrow Kindle


    Sparks wrote: »
    Professionalism being the primary one. ARUs are supposed to operate as support units. They are not supposed to be wandering around high-risk areas listening to their spotify playlist, getting surprised and having to defend themselves with no warning. So the need to have an immediately ready to fire firearm to hand isn't supposed to exist if they're fulfilling their role correctly. Their operating regieme is to give them that time to operate the slide of their firearm before having to fire back, not to make their lives easier, but to lower the risk to the public caused by making a dogs breakfast of the job. This idea that they're wandering about Dublin about to be attacked by ninja drug dealers at any moment is not only stupid, it's a public safety risk.

    And frankly, given the hoops *we* have to jump through to mitigate risks to the public, I see no argument here that says public safety should be disregarded by armed police when we've seen far too many demonstrations of what happens when you do that both in this country and in others with consequences ranging from potential injuries to completely innocent people being shot multiple times due to mistaken identity or faulty threat evaluation.


    I think you're conflating two issues here. I think restrictions on firearms in Ireland are too stringent, but that has no impact on the protocols required to safely and effectively carry a weapon in a professional role. My gut tells me that you have never carried a weapon in a professional capacity or a contested environment, as I believe you would learn first hand very quickly the benefits of carrying a weapon ready-to-fire, if you carry one at all.


    For the record, I don't think that the hoops which legal firearms owners are required to jump through are reasonable or even aimed at safety. Civilians are perfectly capable of handling weapons, carried for the purpose of self defence, safely - i have been one such person in other countries.


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    It takes a second to rack the firearm. Stupid to be going around 100% of the time with a round in the chamber. Dangerous and unnecessary.


    Even the Israelis don't keep their chambers clear in military or police applications. If you are in a situation where you need to carry a weapon, that second may count, and it's only as dangerous as the carrier. None of these weapons discharge themselves.


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with that.Provided you have correct trigger disipline and saftey drilled into you.In this case I feel that maybe a drop leg holster might have some part to play here too.


    Ref Decocking and striker fired issued sidearms.
    Not in this case.ASU use the SIG/SAUER 226.Which has a decocking mechanism..


    On your first paragraph, agreed. On your second, I'll defer to your knowledge - do you know which 226s the ASU use? Are they DAO?


This discussion has been closed.
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