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The End for Youghal?

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    #392
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    Wait, are they proposing a cycleway now instead of a greenway?
    Will there be a separate proposal for a walking route?

    Look, not everybody can be tarred with the same brush, but it's interesting for me that these discussions only take on such vitriolic fervor when bicycles come into play.

    But it's a greenway. Like the one in Blackrock/Mahon or the one in Dungarvan/Kilmacthomas. It'd be one of the only routes in Youghal, Killeagh and Castlemartyr that people with wheelchairs or walking frames can freely navigate, one of the only routes that children with scooters and other balance toys can safely traverse without fear of traffic. It will likely be avoided by club cyclists etc. It is not being "hand[ed] over exclusively to bikes". Many road bike users will avoid it for that reason. Take a look at the user profile of either of the other two greenways mentioned.

    It’s amazing how kiddi bikes have nowhere to go except disused Railways. Remarkable.


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    #393
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    Isambard wrote: »
    where would these out of use derelict roads be?

    Loads of old bog roads in Donegal that cross country and would support an all terrain bicycle but I don’t see the cycle anti rail lobby racing to use them


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    #394
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    It’s amazing how kiddi bikes have nowhere to go except disused Railways. Remarkable.

    Yes I agree. It's absolutely amazing how few amenities there are in east Cork for kiddi bikes and the likes. Killeagh, Mogeely, Youghal are absolutely dominated by cars: do you know these places well?

    If anything the previous poster and I are in favour of railways, if both of our posts across multiple different forums (fora?) are anything to go by.
    If you're looking to converse with an anti-rail lobby, we're the wrong people.

    I'm in favour of light rail on the Blackrock line ASAP for instance. I'd be in favour of rail for Youghal if it managed to be higher up on IÉ's priority list. Which it's not. And in the meantime I'm in favour of ANY public capex that benefits the public of East Cork.


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    #395
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    Loads of old bog roads in Donegal that cross country and would support an all terrain bicycle but I don’t see the cycle anti rail lobby racing to use them

    Donegal's approx 800km round trip from Midleton. I'm not sure the locals would be too interested in going for a run/walk/cycle there.

    Nobody's discussing ATB's, as there's plenty forest trails for those locally.


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    #396
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    I'm in favour of light rail on the Blackrock line ASAP

    The Cork, Blackrock & Passage Rly was originally broad gauge, it could even be resurrected as a heavy rail route.

    But you are right, a light rail continuing on street through the city to UCC or Wilton, would be excellent for Cork.


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    #397
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,854 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    Yes I agree. It's absolutely amazing how few amenities there are in east Cork for kiddi bikes and the likes. Killeagh, Mogeely, Youghal are absolutely dominated by cars: do you know these places well?

    If anything the previous poster and I are in favour of railways, if both of our posts across multiple different forums (fora?) are anything to go by.
    If you're looking to converse with an anti-rail lobby, we're the wrong people.

    I'm in favour of light rail on the Blackrock line ASAP for instance. I'd be in favour of rail for Youghal if it managed to be higher up on IÉ's priority list. Which it's not. And in the meantime I'm in favour of ANY public capex that benefits the public of East Cork.

    If new rail projects were up to IE, sweet fa would be built.
    Youghal didn't bother lobbying IE as Midleton did. So they got a Greenway because they didn't really care one way or the other and IE was only too happy to wash its hands of it.


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    #398
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    Donegal's approx 800km round trip from Midleton. I'm not sure the locals would be too interested in going for a run/walk/cycle there.

    Nobody's discussing ATB's, as there's plenty forest trails for those locally.

    I gave an example of disused roads, as asked for by Isambard, and you might have noticed we’re discussing ATBs now.


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    #399
    Quackster
    Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,746 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    I gave an example of disused roads, as asked for by Isambard, and you might have noticed we’re discussing ATBs now.

    When you say disused, I assume you mean that they are closed to motorised traffic as that's what's required to provide the safe greenway experience. Perhaps you might provide precise examples of these disused roads?


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    #400
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    Quackster wrote: »
    When you say disused, I assume you mean that they are closed to motorised traffic as that's what's required to provide the safe greenway experience. Perhaps you might provide precise examples of these disused roads?

    You want me to scan in every single ordnance survey map in the country? And post the massive posts on this thread?

    Let me think about that.



    No.


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    #401
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    The priority for Youghal transit, as seen earlier.

    519Cg8qLNpL._SS500_.jpg


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    #402
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    This all seems to be a bit of a thread derailment, if you'll pardon the pun.

    I think we can break it down as follows:
    Some people are opposed to the greenway going ahead. As is their right.
    Local people are not very active in lobbying for a railway to Youghal.
    IÉ have expressed no interest in reinstating Youghal.
    The people who want the railway to be reinstated believe that Youghal will deteriorate further without it.
    Did I miss anything?


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    #403
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    The priority for Youghal transit, as seen earlier.

    519Cg8qLNpL._SS500_.jpg

    well of course it is or part of it. The purpose of a Greenway is nothing to do with mass transit. It's a leisure facility.


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    #404
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    The priority for Youghal transit, as seen earlier.

    519Cg8qLNpL._SS500_.jpg

    If the priority is youghal transit, a couple of coaches going back and forth on the n25 will sort that, ala the new Cobh express (apparently very busy) and that town has a rail link.

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #405
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Markcheese wrote: »
    If the priority is youghal transit, a couple of coaches going back and forth on the n25 will sort that, ala the new Cobh express (apparently very busy) and that town has a rail link.

    I was going to bring this up separately.
    That Cobh bus is hitting the rail passenger numbers now. I've been told anecdotally by Cobh residents that cost is a big factor.


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    #406
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Markcheese wrote: »
    If the priority is youghal transit, a couple of coaches going back and forth on the n25 will sort that, ala the new Cobh express (apparently very busy) and that town has a rail link.

    That argument could be applied to every rail route in the country outside of the Greater Dublin Area.

    ****



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    #407
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    If you're taking the long-term view, there will be a need for both a cycle and rail corridor from Cork to further East than Midleton. But I don't think rail to Youghal will precede a Mogeely/East-Midleton/Killeagh UEA. Much less chance again of it preceding the Midleton West/Waterrock UEA and Dunkettle P&R.

    If you want to talk about feeder buses to Youghal as justification for the line, then start thinking about the feeder buses to Midleton first: the reason these don't happen is that bus companies want max fare so bring pax direct to Cork. So density on the line itself is a critical factor.

    Midleton West/Waterrock UEA and Dunkettle P&R will improve profitability of the line and give IÉ some options but I still don't think they'll budge until the East Cork MD LAP includes density East of Midleton. If you want to see a Youghal line reopen then that's the route forward IMO. And it likely will be opposed by people arguing for that density to be closer to Cork.

    None of the above is going to progress much in the next 10 years. And since the long term plan is both rail and cycle corridor, why not progress one of the two now while the money and political backing are available, instead of maintaining status quo with nobody benefiting?

    All the above is just an opinion, obviously.


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    #408
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    That argument could be applied to every rail route in the country outside of the Greater Dublin Area.

    except that they are already rail routes which makes a big difference.


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    #409
    Quackster
    Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,746 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    You want me to scan in every single ordnance survey map in the country? And post the massive posts on this thread?

    Let me think about that.



    No.

    I simply want you to back up your claims with fact. 'Tis all.


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    #410
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    Quackster wrote: »
    I simply want you to back up your claims with fact. 'Tis all.

    I have. I’ve told you where to find the information. Do your own homework.

    Another thing: Robert Macfarlane in The Old Ways asserts this. Page 13 if you need to see the source. I’m sure there are clever map people who can track these if the will to stay away from the low hanging fruit of disused Railways is there.
    Many regions have their old ways, connecting place to place, leading over passes or round mountains, to church or chapel, river or sea. Not all of their histories are happy. In Ireland there are hundreds of miles of famine roads, built by the starving in the 1840s to connect nothing with nothing in return for very little, unmarked on any base maps.

    We could reclaim these for public use, or destroy more Railways.


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    #411
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    the only railways being destroyed are derelict defunct ones. The Railways that matter are the ones that are in use, that people use and depend on and who deserve a better service.


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    #412
    Cork Trucker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Isambard wrote: »
    the only railways being destroyed are derelict defunct ones. The Railways that matter are the ones that are in use, that people use and depend on and who deserve a better service.

    Bar the tourist season I’ll never understand how Cobh still has trains when there’s a Cobh Connect bus service that is very successful


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    #413
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Markcheese wrote: »
    If the priority is youghal transit, a couple of coaches going back and forth on the n25 will sort that, ala the new Cobh express (apparently very busy) and that town has a rail link.

    a couple of coaches going back and forward won't sort it.
    not by a long shot.
    they will just add to the congestion and be more space wasting road transport which we need to reduce as part of our climate emergency declaration.
    Isambard wrote: »
    the only railways being destroyed are derelict defunct ones. The Railways that matter are the ones that are in use, that people use and depend on and who deserve a better service.





    the railways that matter are both the ones in use and the ones with potential for reopening which must be protected.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #414
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    well if you like, but then would not a line of some sort to Bandon or Macroom via Ballincollig be of more use than one from Midleton to Youghal?

    Deciding the priorities is the difficult bit and the Youghal line comes well down the list imo


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    #415
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,627 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Isambard wrote: »
    well if you like, but then would not a line of some sort to Bandon or Macroom via Ballincollig be of more use than one from Midleton to Youghal?

    Deciding the priorities is the difficult bit and the Youghal line comes well down the list imo

    Well on the bandon or macroom line you're over 50 years too late. Hindsight is a wonderful thing in fairness. I've no doubt that the powers that be would love to have the west cork railway as an asset to use now. The Midleton to youghal section is far far more viable, if not in the short then most definitely the long term given that Midleton is open and connected to the national network.


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    #416
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    end of the road wrote: »
    road transport which we need to reduce as part of our climate emergency declaration.

    Empty, heavy diesel railcars are far more likely to be stopped under those rules than modern buses.


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    #417
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    Well on the bandon or macroom line you're over 50 years too late. Hindsight is a wonderful thing in fairness. I've no doubt that the powers that be would love to have the west cork railway as an asset to use now. The Midleton to youghal section is far far more viable, if not in the short then most definitely the long term given that Midleton is open and connected to the national network.

    well you could say the same of Harcourt St or Broadstone and yet....

    The Youghal line isn't more viable, it's just easier and cheaper.


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    #418
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    L1011 wrote: »
    Empty, heavy diesel railcars are far more likely to be stopped under those rules than modern buses.

    only if we have powers that be with old mindsets.
    if we have ones with modern ones, the diesel railcars will be filled and if needing replacing, will be replaced by alternative power sources.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #419
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    end of the road wrote: »
    only if we have powers that be with old mindsets.
    if we have ones with modern ones, the diesel railcars will be filled and if needing replacing, will be replaced by alternative power sources.

    One bus will leave a 2 car railcar quite empty.

    Lightly used railway lines are never more environmentally friendly than buses, particularly diesel. Clearly heavily used lines are, particularly electrified.


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    #420
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    L1011 wrote: »
    One bus will leave a 2 car railcar quite empty.

    not always. it may depend on the offerings of both.
    even then in some cases the 1 bus replacing the 2 car unit may actually end up killing pt in the area or areas altogether.
    L1011 wrote: »
    Lightly used railway lines are never more environmentally friendly than buses, particularly diesel.

    they actually probably are tbh when every possible factor is taken into account.
    while a 2 car unit will use more fuel, fuel is only a tiny part in the whole running, and it's emissions are smaller compared to the bus over all, as while the bus itself will have smaller emissions, it generally gets caught in the traffic congestion and travels along with other traffic, so we nd up with collective pollution, via the collective smog/emissions.
    L1011 wrote: »
    Clearly heavily used lines are, particularly electrified.

    of course. that will be a given.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #421
    ohographite
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭ohographite


    L1011 wrote: »
    One bus will leave a 2 car railcar quite empty.

    Lightly used railway lines are never more environmentally friendly than buses, particularly diesel. Clearly heavily used lines are, particularly electrified.

    Are you suggesting that the Cobh line should be closed now that Cobh has buses(I would not agree with this idea)?


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