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The End for Youghal?

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    #422
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Cobh passenger figures aren't even vaguely light last time I checked.


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    #423
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    I suspect without knowing that the Cobh trains are quite popular for commuting given they follow a more direct route than the road and take you almost to the City centre regardless of congestion.


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    #424
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,066 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Lads, the rail figures were released not long ago.

    Cobh is still a great line and I suspect still very profitable, but usage from Cobh itself is dropping because of the bus competing with it. It is relatively expensive end to end, and that's a factor. Most of the cruise ships are met by fleets of buses which is another factor.

    But that line's not going away any time soon. I don't think anyone's suggesting it is.

    Again, this is all beside the point of the thread.
    Which was to discuss whether the Midleton to Youghal greenway was the end of the Youghal line. And I still don't think it is.


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    #425
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    Lads, the rail figures were released not long ago.

    Cobh is still a great line and I suspect still very profitable, but usage from Cobh itself is dropping because of the bus competing with it. It is relatively expensive end to end, and that's a factor. Most of the cruise ships are met by fleets of buses which is another factor.

    But that line's not going away any time soon. I don't think anyone's suggesting it is.

    Again, this is all beside the point of the thread.
    Which was to discuss whether the Midleton to Youghal greenway was the end of the Youghal line. And I still don't think it is.
    Cobb line is profitable - pull the other one.

    ****



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    #426
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,066 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Cobb line is profitable - pull the other one.

    ???
    I just said I believe it is. That's what I wrote in my post. What did you read it as?

    Wait, do you think it's not profitable?
    If so, do you mean for the exchequer or for IÉ? It's one of IÉ's better performing routes. I'll happily agree that as far as the exchequer is concerned, pretty much nothing but DART is profitable: it's all subvented. So are the bus routes though. So is pretty much all public transport.


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    #427
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Cobb line is profitable - pull the other one.

    Exactly!
    No railway is profitable, no road is profitable.

    There are rare exceptions to this and every rule, the two toll bridges in Dublin come to mind.


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    #428
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,066 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    tabbey wrote: »
    Exactly!
    No railway is profitable, no road is profitable.

    There are rare exceptions to this and every rule, the two toll bridges in Dublin come to mind.

    If you mean for the exchequer they all have a cost-benefit ratio. And plenty of the PPP's are profitable for the companies that build. That's why they're progressed.
    So going down the road of discussing the specific cost for every project is something of a waste of time. Discussing the relative cost is what's important.

    Coming back to the Youghal line, the relative cost of reinstating the Youghal line is high, particularly in comparison with other Cork-area proposed rail projects.


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    #429
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    ohographite wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that the Cobh line should be closed now that Cobh has buses(I would not agree with this idea)?

    Gawd no, but it says something when a town with a crap road in and out, but a modern 2line regular railservice, has a new unsubsidised bus service that's busy (on the same route as the train)

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #430
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Isambard wrote: »
    I suspect without knowing that the Cobh trains are quite popular for commuting given they follow a more direct route than the road and take you almost to the City centre regardless of congestion.

    Its not a particularly high speed line, the route the train and road take are almost the same, the train wouldnt have traffic at tivoli to contend with, but the bus carries on to patricks quay.. (next to patricks bridge, so 10 mins walk further on than the train),

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #431
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    the route is very different as the Train cuts the corner on the viaduct and the bus has to negotiate the bridge at Fota, not to mention the Dunkettle interchanges et al. The routes are chalk and cheese if you pardon the pun.


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    #432
    ExoPolitic
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    I used the 40 bus the other day between waterford and cork, and the amount of people boarding in youghal was insane, we spent at least 10 minutes at the stop so the driver could collect all the fares and issue tickets, and we left people behind. This was on a weekday at about 11am...


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    #433
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    ExoPolitic wrote: »
    I used the 40 bus the other day between waterford and cork, and the amount of people boarding in youghal was insane, we spent at least 10 minutes at the stop so the driver could collect all the fares and issue tickets, and we left people behind. This was on a weekday at about 11am...

    So stick on more coaches..Or better yet, get the same crowd who are doing Cobh direct bus (without subsidy I think) onto the route..
    If there's regular passenger numbers there it shouldn't be a problem..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #434
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    ExoPolitic wrote: »
    I used the 40 bus the other day between waterford and cork, and the amount of people boarding in youghal was insane, we spent at least 10 minutes at the stop so the driver could collect all the fares and issue tickets, and we left people behind. This was on a weekday at about 11am...

    I think you may overexaggerate , the bus capacity would be around 50, add ten people left behind and subtract however many were already on the bus and you don't get to an insane number. Not enough to justify spending 100 million or so on a rail line.


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    #435
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Markcheese wrote: »
    So stick on more coaches..Or better yet, get the same crowd who are doing Cobh direct bus (without subsidy I think) onto the route..
    If there's regular passenger numbers there it shouldn't be a problem..

    or reopen the line.
    more coaches already adding to the congestion is a waste of everyone's time and as we can see over decades is not a viable transport solution for cities.
    if operators like cobh connect wanted to operate to youghal, they would probably be doing it already.
    Isambard wrote: »
    I think you may overexaggerate , the bus capacity would be around 50, add ten people left behind and subtract however many were already on the bus and you don't get to an insane number. Not enough to justify spending 100 million or so on a rail line.

    where are you getting 100000000 from? if it's where i think it is (ennis athenry) one line costing that amount does not equate to every reopening costing the same.
    the bus capacity and the usage of bus services to youghal has to be irrelevant in terms of whether the line should or shouldn't reopen given they are both different markets and the characteristics in terms of the usage of both. the line reopening or not can only stand on it's own merrit.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #436
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    end of the road wrote: »
    or reopen the line.
    more coaches already adding to the congestion is a waste of everyone's time and as we can see over decades is not a viable transport solution for cities.
    if operators like cobh connect wanted to operate to youghal, they would probably be doing it already.



    where are you getting 100000000 from? if it's where i think it is (ennis athenry) one line costing that amount does not equate to every reopening costing the same.
    the bus capacity and the usage of bus services to youghal has to be irrelevant in terms of whether the line should or shouldn't reopen given they are both different markets and the characteristics in terms of the usage of both. the line reopening or not can only stand on it's own merrit.

    If it could be built for 100 million I'd be amazed, largely single track? 3 stations, and about 18km of track, I don't know how many level crossings, a few extra train sets...
    Its not that big a population in youghal, killagh and mogeely, and on the Cork side the connectivity isn't great... If there's a 100 million odd available for public transport in and around cork, brilliant, there's tons of worth while projects that'd benefit more people than reopening the old youghal line.

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #437
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Markcheese wrote: »
    If it could be built for 100 million I'd be amazed, largely single track? 3 stations, and about 18km of track, I don't know how many level crossings, a few extra train sets...
    Its not that big a population in youghal, killagh and mogeely, and on the Cork side the connectivity isn't great... If there's a 100 million odd available for public transport in and around cork, brilliant, there's tons of worth while projects that'd benefit more people than reopening the old youghal line.

    ennis athenry is i believe a hell of a lot longer then 18 km so i would think reopening to youghal could be done for a lot less then 100000000.
    new rolling stock is being bought anyway as the country as a whole is short of it so that wouldn't be a specific cost in terms of reopening the youghal line as the cork suburban is likely to receive the current diesels from the dublin suburban which add up to a lot more units. even if those diesels are split between cork and limerick there would still be a few more then currently as i would imagine it won't be a 50 50 split.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #438
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    100 million was a guess, however, it's some years since 103 million was spent on the WRC and that would cost more today, plus new lines have, I believe, to be electric, adding more cost . 103 Million is probably an under estimate


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    #439
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,986 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Isambard wrote: »
    100 million was a guess, however, it's some years since 103 million was spent on the WRC and that would cost more today, plus new lines have, I believe, to be electric, adding more cost . 103 Million is probably an under estimate

    who has said that new lines have to be electric? i am aware that statement has been posted a few times on here but where has it come from?
    unless there are plans for electrification of the network as a whole (unlikely) or at least, electrification within the area of any reopening that would ever be given the go ahead, then there are no reasons for such a blanket rule as you will just end up with an electrified island within a diesel area and diesels still running under the wires, or a micro electric fleet specifically to serve that 1 line.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #440
    ExoPolitic
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭ExoPolitic


    Isambard wrote: »
    I think you may overexaggerate , the bus capacity would be around 50, add ten people left behind and subtract however many were already on the bus and you don't get to an insane number. Not enough to justify spending 100 million or so on a rail line.

    No, there was a loading on the coach before they joined of about 1/3rd full. I distinctly remember because it took so long!

    Also there is Dublin Coach and BE plying this route, both unsubsidised, to who ever said about more coaches etc. It can do with more coaches, and the competition is there.


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    #441
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Cork County Council have tendered for clearance and fencing of the line between Midleton and Youghal stations.

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/154321/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE


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    #442
    ontheditch2
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ontheditch2


    end of the road wrote: »
    or reopen the line.
    more coaches already adding to the congestion is a waste of everyone's time and as we can see over decades is not a viable transport solution for cities..

    Really? I don't think you understand how public transport actually alleviates traffic problems and congestion. 1 extra coach an hour probably takes 20 cars off the road.


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