The End for Youghal?

loyatemu · 01-07-2019 2:25pm

marno21 wrote: »

1963. But remember in the 1960s there was a plan to demolish swathes of Cork City Centre for motorways. There wasn't a plan to build a public transport & cycling network in Cork. There wasn't large scale office developments in Cork City Centre.

what has any of that got to do with Youghal?

end of the road · 01-07-2019 2:50pm

loyatemu wrote: »

what has any of that got to do with Youghal?

his point is that times have changed since the 1960s. that because the line hasn't had a regular service since then that it should not stop it from doing so now or in the future.
youghal and the areas between that and midleton add to the already large congestion that the city faces.

hans aus dtschl · 01-07-2019 2:57pm

end of the road wrote: »

his point is that times have changed since the 1960s. that because the line hasn't had a regular service since then that it should not stop it from doing so now or in the future.
youghal and the areas between that and midleton add to the already large congestion that the city faces.

It's a fair point to make.
But Youghal is not on IÉ's radar at all at the moment.
If they can get Dunkettle/Tivoli and Kilbarry up and running they will be big wins. And these would be tiny projects by comparison to Youghal.

Cork Trucker · 10-07-2019 2:19pm

This really is terrible.

https://twitter.com/PaulByrne_1/status/1148899507926683653

Markcheese · 11-07-2019 12:44am

Theres 3 towns and villages served by the old line, less than 10 thousand people, and the train station is at the western end of youghal, (a long thin town), so many people would either drive to the station (and if you're doing that you'd stay going), or get a bus, (which could also stay going to cork),

end of the road · 11-07-2019 1:24am

Markcheese wrote: »

Theres 3 towns and villages served by the old line, less than 10 thousand people, and the train station is at the western end of youghal, (a long thin town), so many people would either drive to the station (and if you're doing that you'd stay going), or get a bus, (which could also stay going to cork),

causing more congestion and more problems. which is why the line needs to be reopened and the traffic encouraged on to rail.
over all cheaper, better, and allows the roads to be used by those who really have no other option.

Isambard · 11-07-2019 6:31am

Markcheese wrote: »

Theres 3 towns and villages served by the old line, less than 10 thousand people, and the train station is at the western end of youghal, (a long thin town), so many people would either drive to the station (and if you're doing that you'd stay going), or get a bus, (which could also stay going to cork),

In addition, many of those who would drive to Youghal Station would be to the west of the town and could just as easily drive to Midleton.

I've no objection to the principal of promoting the use of rail lines, it's just that there are many more deserving projects than this. This is a case of promoting the line just because it used to be there and people hanker after the past, all misty eyed. If investment was available for suburban rail, in the Cork area alone there are more deserving projects.

end of the road · 11-07-2019 10:56am

Isambard wrote: »

This is a case of promoting the line just because it used to be there and people hanker after the past, all misty eyed.

nope.
this is a baseless claim with no basis in reality. of course you know this already.

Cork Trucker · 11-07-2019 1:03pm

Barring the specials laid on since the line closed to regular traffic in 1963, look at how much the villages of Mogeely,Killeagh and Youghal have expanded in the last 56 years, i have personal experience of people coming from Grange/Ardmore.Kiely's Cross in Waterford who travel to and work in Apple on the Northside of the city for example, every one of them told me that combined with Apple's own dedicated shuttle service and the 202 combined, that if there were a train available they would use the service as they genuinely believe a train from Youghal to Cork Kent would be by far quicker than a car doing the same distance especially when you factor in the traffic and other potential delays you rarely get on a railway line. The government can borrow the below with ease, yet they can't for projects like extending /reopening this railway line or other projects like Dunkettle etc. In the long term this greenway will be a disaster for east Cork from Midleton to Youghal, i don't care either about the success of the Deise greenway two very different scenarios.

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1149247060966817792

Isambard · 11-07-2019 1:41pm

but the fact is any investment applied in other areas would yield a far better cost/benefit. Chief amongst these as far as Cork is concerned would be a Light Rail System and an enhanced semi-fast system, with new stations,on the existing main line , used by only one train each way for most of the day.

There may well be other projects nationwide looking for the same investment that would rank higher. This one seems a non starter

end of the road · 11-07-2019 2:12pm

Isambard wrote: »

but the fact is any investment applied in other areas would yield a far better cost/benefit. Chief amongst these as far as Cork is concerned would be a Light Rail System and an enhanced semi-fast system, with new stations,on the existing main line , used by only one train each way for most of the day.

There may well be other projects nationwide looking for the same investment that would rank higher. This one seems a non starter

it's far from a non-starter until the greenway construction is signed off and begins. at the moment, there is still time for lobbying for a change if it is what people want. people in cork need to get lobbying their local politicians if they believe the line should open.
congestion relieving is quite a cost benefit of it's own and in many ways and reopening this rail line would do exactly that.
there is money for any of the rail investments needed around the country, there is no worry on that score.

hans aus dtschl · 11-07-2019 2:53pm

end of the road wrote: »

it's far from a non-starter until the greenway construction is signed off and begins. at the moment, there is still time for lobbying for a change if it is what people want. people in cork need to get lobbying their local politicians if they believe the line should open.
congestion relieving is quite a cost benefit of it's own and in many ways and reopening this rail line would do exactly that.
there is money for any of the rail investments needed around the country, there is no worry on that score.

I'll start by saying I'd love if the railway to Youghal were being reopened. But it's not. And I'll be happy with a greenway as an amenity in the interim.

Once again: if the greenway was the thing that prevents a railway, how do you reconcile the Blackrock light rail plans?
If the greenway was the thing that prevents a railway, how do you reconcile the fact that there's been no effort to reopen the line over the last 30 years?
So the greenway is not the thing preventing a railway. Let's put that to bed now and discuss what is preventing a railway.

As has been discussed, some rail projects in Cork waiting for funding are as follows:
Kent Station Passing Loop
Kilbarry
Carrigtwohill West
Dunkettle P&R
These are all currently unfunded. These are all well ahead of reopening the Youghal line in terms of cost-benefit.

You guys are ideologically against the greenway and that's fine, but don't pretend to yourself that the preventing the greenway is a step towards reopening the Youghal line. You'd have to remove the encroachment on the alignment and secure funding. Both of which will not be happening for a long time to come. Possibly ever.

hans aus dtschl · 11-07-2019 3:14pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

people coming from Grange/Ardmore.Kiely's Cross in Waterford who travel to and work in Apple on the Northside of the city for example, every one of them told me that combined with Apple's own dedicated shuttle service and the 202 combined, that if there were a train available they would use the service as they genuinely believe a train from Youghal to Cork Kent would be by far quicker than a car doing the same distance especially when you factor in the traffic and other potential delays you rarely get on a railway line.

That's not very realistic. They might have said this but think about it:
They drive from Grange.
They drive past Midleton, Carrigtwohill, Glounthaune and Little Island stations.
They then put up with traffic in Dunkettle, Tivoli and across the northside, and say that the thing that stops them from getting out of their car is the lack of a Youghal train station?
Commuting long distance like from Grange Waterford to Cork is not something that our railways are best at. Providing Youghal station won't bring many of these people in, despite what they say. It was the same story with West on Track. Loads of people say "oh I'd use public transport if..." but few actually do it in the end. Unfortunately.

Cork Trucker wrote: »

In the long term this greenway will be a disaster for east Cork from Midleton to Youghal, i don't care either about the success of the Deise greenway two very different scenarios.

That depends on what constitutes a disaster in your eyes.
The people of Kilmacthomas that I've spoken to have said that it's been the best thing that's happened to the town for a long time.
You might not care about it, but I think the people of Dungarvan and Kilmacthomas certainly do.

Isambard · 12-07-2019 7:30am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

That's not very realistic. They might have said this but think about it:
They drive from Grange.
They drive past Midleton, Carrigtwohill, Glounthaune and Little Island stations.
They then put up with traffic in Dunkettle, Tivoli and across the northside, and say that the thing that stops them from getting out of their car is the lack of a Youghal train station?
Commuting long distance like from Grange Waterford to Cork is not something that our railways are best at. Providing Youghal station won't bring many of these people in, despite what they say. It was the same story with West on Track. Loads of people say "oh I'd use public transport if..." but few actually do it in the end. Unfortunately.

That depends on what constitutes a disaster in your eyes.
The people of Kilmacthomas that I've spoken to have said that it's been the best thing that's happened to the town for a long time.
You might not care about it, but I think the people of Dungarvan and Kilmacthomas certainly do.

nailed it twice. Truly great post.

When the much talked of new North Ring from the new much talked of new Dunkettle interchange to the much talked about M20,is built, access from the East to Apple by car will become much easier and thus it would be even less likely they'd take the train, even if they extended it out to Grange!

XPS_Zero · 13-07-2019 10:27am

You guys seem to be talking PAST each other rather than TO each other.

To the pro-reopen folks: I think they are saying what I'm saying, that sure theres a case to be made to open that rail line, but when money becomes available for more infrastructure projects borrowed or thru taxation bumps, it will have to go to finite places, and suburban Cork, Cork Luas, Dublin Luas extensions, Metro and DART Expansion are far better 'bang for your buck' projects than this would be.

end of the road · 13-07-2019 2:18pm

we are well aware of what is being said.
however it is irrelevant to the situation youghal and places between it and midleton and further on are going to face in terms of traffic congestion in the coming years which needs resolving.
any sort of road scheme to sort it out (i believe a motor way is planned) is probably a long way off, and anyway it takes billions that could deliver maybe even all of the proposed rail projects in cork which would benefit the city as a whole.
there is plenty of money for anything that needs doing in the country.

marno21 · 13-07-2019 2:27pm

end of the road wrote: »

we are well aware of what is being said.
however it is irrelevant to the situation youghal and places between it and midleton and further on are going to face in terms of traffic congestion in the coming years which needs resolving.
any sort of road scheme to sort it out (i believe a motor way is planned) is probably a long way off, and anyway it takes billions that could deliver maybe even all of the proposed rail projects in cork which would benefit the city as a whole.
there is plenty of money for anything that needs doing in the country.

A minor correction; there’s a motorway planned but going by current timelines it’ll be opening between 2035 and 2040 unless it’s moved up the queue.

Quackster · 13-07-2019 3:14pm

end of the road wrote: »

There is plenty of money for anything that needs doing in the country.

Considering we're 200 billion euro in debt, I'd beg to differ.

Isambard · 13-07-2019 3:32pm

Quackster wrote: »

Considering we're 200 billion euro in debt, I'd beg to differ.

me too and when Brexit kicks in we'll be in a worse position again.

dowlingm · 13-07-2019 11:46pm

To me the rationale for looking at a Youghal reopen is to do so in concert with three things:

1. A significant investment in Youghal as an urban centre with development focused on the railway station (such as at the Greyhound Stadium, given the likely decline of that activity over the next decade). The station lands themselves look pretty large which could potentially be reduced for a simple terminus with some parking. Might also have potential to attract Belmond business given it's a town with a long leisure history and reasonable proximity to places like Ballymaloe, Castlemartyr resort, Stephen Pearse pottery in Shanagarry etc.
2. A park and ride east of Killeagh to capture traffic from Waterford that doesn't want to haul all the way into the city, possibly in conjunction with a relief road.
3. Re-working the public transport network. While intercity express bus will need to continue for connections to/from Ardmore, Dungarvan and Waterford, what East Cork could use is redirection of some of the local bus services through the JLT towards CUH/CIT (and maybe an airport service if there was demand for it), with rail service operating as a spine for service to and from the City Centre/Tivoli.

tabbey · 14-07-2019 2:22pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Might also have potential to attract Belmond business given it's a town with a long leisure history and reasonable proximity to places like Ballymaloe, Castlemartyr resort, Stephen Pearse pottery in Shanagarry etc.

Belmond actually bring their clients to the Midleton distillery, but by bus from Cork, rather than bringing the train into Midleton Station, where they might need a second loco rather than runaround.

Isambard · 14-07-2019 5:01pm

dowlingm wrote: »

To me the rationale for looking at a Youghal reopen is to do so in concert with three things:

1. A significant investment in Youghal as an urban centre with development focused on the railway station (such as at the Greyhound Stadium, given the likely decline of that activity over the next decade). The station lands themselves look pretty large which could potentially be reduced for a simple terminus with some parking. Might also have potential to attract Belmond business given it's a town with a long leisure history and reasonable proximity to places like Ballymaloe, Castlemartyr resort, Stephen Pearse pottery in Shanagarry etc.
2. A park and ride east of Killeagh to capture traffic from Waterford that doesn't want to haul all the way into the city, possibly in conjunction with a relief road.
3. Re-working the public transport network. While intercity express bus will need to continue for connections to/from Ardmore, Dungarvan and Waterford, what East Cork could use is redirection of some of the local bus services through the JLT towards CUH/CIT (and maybe an airport service if there was demand for it), with rail service operating as a spine for service to and from the City Centre/Tivoli.

Park and Ride bus you presumably mean? There are three or four opportunities now to join the train, as pointed out the other day, rail isn't an option now for most of those drivers and nothing would change that with rail extended for almost ll of them.

dowlingm · 14-07-2019 11:20pm

tabbey wrote: »

Belmond actually bring their clients to the Midleton distillery, but by bus from Cork, rather than bringing the train into Midleton Station, where they might need a second loco rather than runaround.

Presumably Midleton was designed with a simple commuter service in mind before Belmond was a thing. I wonder how much room would be needed for a runaround track. Only a 90m platform at Midleton too.

Isambard wrote: »

Park and Ride bus you presumably mean? There are three or four opportunities now to join the train, as pointed out the other day, rail isn't an option now for most of those drivers and nothing would change that with rail extended for almost ll of them.

Point would be to optimise park and ride access with direct ramps off the N25, not make them schlep through Midleton.

The other thing would be to maximise speed - this is a flat and straight alignment so between Midleton and Youghal I'd be looking for services to be operating accordingly. If I read the Network Statement 2019 correctly, line speed is 50mph Cork-Glounthaune-Cobh and 60mph Glounthaune-Midleton. Apart from hoping for a lift to 60 west of Glounthaune as part of a Tivoli station project, it would be nice to see something nearer 70 east of Midleton to give a clear advantage to train over road (and therefore park-ride).

marno21 · 14-07-2019 11:27pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Presumably Midleton was designed with a simple commuter service in mind before Belmond was a thing. I wonder how much room would be needed for a runaround track. Only a 90m platform at Midleton too.

Point would be to optimise park and ride access with direct ramps off the N25, not make them schlep through Midleton.

The other thing would be to maximise speed - this is a flat and straight alignment so between Midleton and Youghal I'd be looking for services to be operating accordingly. If I read the Network Statement 2019 correctly, line speed is 50mph Cork-Glounthaune-Cobh and 60mph Glounthaune-Midleton. Apart from hoping for a lift to 60 west of Glounthaune as part of a Tivoli station project, it would be nice to see something nearer 70 east of Midleton to give a clear advantage to train over road (and therefore park-ride).

Electrification west of Midleton would be a massive help there also with the amount of stations both existing and planned.

Isambard · 15-07-2019 8:06am

dowlingm wrote: »

Presumably Midleton was designed with a simple commuter service in mind before Belmond was a thing. I wonder how much room would be needed for a runaround track. Only a 90m platform at Midleton too.

Point would be to optimise park and ride access with direct ramps off the N25, not make them schlep through Midleton.

The other thing would be to maximise speed - this is a flat and straight alignment so between Midleton and Youghal I'd be looking for services to be operating accordingly. If I read the Network Statement 2019 correctly, line speed is 50mph Cork-Glounthaune-Cobh and 60mph Glounthaune-Midleton. Apart from hoping for a lift to 60 west of Glounthaune as part of a Tivoli station project, it would be nice to see something nearer 70 east of Midleton to give a clear advantage to train over road (and therefore park-ride).

Loads of room next to the existing headshunt for a loop.

Still not sure if you mean train P&R or bus P&R. A rail P&R could be achieved quite simply at Glounthane or Little Island or the new station suggested at the Tunnel.No need for a new line to Killeagh then.I think your suggestion is a disguised "might as well carry on to Youghal then "

Lord Glentoran · 15-07-2019 8:29am

XPS_Zero wrote: »

You guys seem to be talking PAST each other rather than TO each other.

To the pro-reopen folks: I think they are saying what I'm saying, that sure theres a case to be made to open that rail line, but when money becomes available for more infrastructure projects borrowed or thru taxation bumps, it will have to go to finite places, and suburban Cork, Cork Luas, Dublin Luas extensions, Metro and DART Expansion are far better 'bang for your buck' projects than this would be.

Isn’t it odd that in the case of roads this “debate” simply doesn’t happen. In that world, the empty M18/M17 that addresses none of the congestion issues in Galway was a priority over the M20. Go figure.

hans aus dtschl · 15-07-2019 8:38am

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Isn’t it odd that in the case of roads this “debate” simply doesn’t happen. In that world, the empty M18/M17 that addresses none of the congestion issues in Galway was a priority over the M20. Go figure.

I'm not sure if you're saying that rail is the only thing getting a raw deal? If so that's not necessarily true.

You'll see people on the Galway bypass thread (saying "this is the only road people outside Galway constantly object to") the N20 thread ("this is the only road constantly being delayed/rerouted") and others with a similar mindset to you.

In any case, I'll put it to you that rail's slightly more sensitive to cost-efficiency because the company charged with running our rail network is semi-state.

Lord Glentoran · 15-07-2019 10:04am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're saying that rail is the only thing getting a raw deal? If so that's not necessarily true.

You'll see people on the Galway bypass thread (saying "this is the only road people outside Galway constantly object to") the N20 thread ("this is the only road constantly being delayed/rerouted") and others with a similar mindset to you.

In any case, I'll put it to you that rail's slightly more sensitive to cost-efficiency because the company charged with running our rail network is semi-state.

Well nobody wants to hand roads over exclusively over to bikes. There’s the difference.

Isambard · 15-07-2019 10:25am

where would these out of use derelict roads be?

hans aus dtschl · 15-07-2019 10:29am

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Well nobody wants to hand roads over exclusively over to bikes. There’s the difference.

Wait, are they proposing a cycleway now instead of a greenway?
Will there be a separate proposal for a walking route?

Look, not everybody can be tarred with the same brush, but it's interesting for me that these discussions only take on such vitriolic fervor when bicycles come into play.

But it's a greenway. Like the one in Blackrock/Mahon or the one in Dungarvan/Kilmacthomas. It'd be one of the only routes in Youghal, Killeagh and Castlemartyr that people with wheelchairs or walking frames can freely navigate, one of the only routes that children with scooters and other balance toys can safely traverse without fear of traffic. It will likely be avoided by club cyclists etc. It is not being "hand[ed] over exclusively to bikes". Many road bike users will avoid it for that reason. Take a look at the user profile of either of the other two greenways mentioned.

The End for Youghal?

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