Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe

Dohnjoe · 11-07-2019 6:56pm

Tony EH wrote: »

No.

The accusation is that there is a significant problem within Labour regarding Anti Semitism.

Which is supported by labour investigators - who have since had to speak out

We are talking 30 whistleblowers (including current members). The Jewish Labour Movement will be submitting these accounts to the Equality and Human Rights Commission

Here is a direct quote from them

“The testimonies of whistleblowers confirm what we have suspected for some time. The culture and scale of antisemitism within the party has been perpetuated and exacerbated by those at the very top. Those responsible must be held accountable.”

Gringo180 · 11-07-2019 6:57pm

The BBC are a farce these days. Watched last nights Panorama as well, it was laughable how one sided it was. I thought a state broadcaster were suppose to be impartial? You would expect to see that sort of stuff in China or North Korea.

Tony EH · 11-07-2019 7:00pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Which is supported by labour investigators - who have since had to speak out

We are talking 30 whistleblowers (including current members). The Jewish Labour Movement will be submitting these accounts to the Equality and Human Rights Commission

Here is a direct quote from them

“The testimonies of whistleblowers confirm what we have suspected for some time. The culture and scale of antisemitism within the party has been perpetuated and exacerbated by those at the very top. Those responsible must be held accountable.”

It's not supported by any data at all. That's the problem. This is just cheap, empty, allegation.

0.08% is not anywhere near a significant figure. Even if that figure rose catastrophically and ended up being 2%, it STILL wouldn't be a significant figure.

There's no getting around this, no matter how many times the goalposts are shifted.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 11-07-2019 7:10pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

The BBC are a farce these days. Watched last nights Panorama as well, it was laughable how one sided it was. I thought a state broadcaster were suppose to be impartial? You would expect to see that sort of stuff in China or North Korea.

The BBC might redeem themselves by a program on the Israel lobby.

I think al jazerra have some footage.

11-07-2019 7:15pm

Child abuse was perpetrated by a relatively small minority of Catholic clergy. What was most damaging to the credibility of the Catholic Church was the years they spent trying to conceal these crimes and protect the abusers. Along with this they attempted to smear and denigrate the accusers and accuse the media and other commentators of anti Church bias.

The British Labour party are going down the same path in relation to anti-semitism. Its the medias fault, the accusers fault, its "disgruntled" ex-employees, etc. (Incidentally, or not, ex-employeees they attemted to gag with non-disclosure agreements, also used by the Church against their accusers).
They are playing into the hands of their opponents. I say this with regret. With the shambolic Tory government of recent years, Labour should be miles out in front in the polls. Instead they are below 20% in a recent poll.This is not down to anti-semitism alone, but their failure to tackle anti-semitism is one factor that damages their credibility.

Tony EH · 11-07-2019 7:19pm

1641 wrote: »

Child abuse was perpetrated by a relatively small minority of Catholic clergy.

It was actually quite widespread, took place over decades and across numerous countries and covered up for years.

It's not even comparable to the current smear campaign against the British Labour Party at all, which has yielded practically nothing.

James Brown · 11-07-2019 7:20pm

1641 wrote: »

Child abuse was perpetrated by a relatively small minority of Catholic clergy. What was most damaging to the credibility of the Catholic Church was the years they spent trying to conceal these crimes and protect the abusers. Along with this they attempted to smear and denigrate the accusers and accuse the media and other commentators of anti Church bias.

The British Labour party are going down the same path in relation to anti-semitism. Its the medias fault, the accusers fault, its "disgruntled" ex-employees, etc. (Incidentally, or not, ex-employeees they attemted to gag with non-disclosure agreements, also used by the Church against their accusers).
They are playing into the hands of their opponents. I say this with regret. With the shambolic Tory government of recent years, Labour should be miles out in front in the polls. Instead they are below 20% in a recent poll.This is not down to anti-semitism alone, but their failure to tackle anti-semitism is one factor that damages their credibility.

My word what a grossly inaccurate comparison.
First show antisemetism within the party, show Corbyn is aware of it and hiding it, (and show how they, I dunno, raped people because they were Jewish?) and we might be in the ball park.
In reality there's a concerted smear campaign by members of the the Israeli lobby, (like yourself) to attack specifically Corbyn. And as pointed out earlier this suits far right people, so they'll side with the Israeli lobby to oust any sniff of socialism and when the coast is clear they'll get back to adding Jews to their hate list.

11-07-2019 7:36pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

My word what a grossly inaccurate comparison.
First show antisemetism within the party, show Corbyn is aware of it and hiding it, (and show how they, I dunno, raped people because they were Jewish?) and we might be in the ball park.
In reality there's a concerted smear campaign by members of the the Israeli lobby, (like yourself) to attack specifically Corbyn. And as pointed out earlier this suits far right people, so they'll side with the Israeli lobby to oust any sniff of socialism and when the coast is clear they'll get back to adding Jews to their hate list.

Now you are being ridiculous. Nobody is suggesting anything about rape in the Labour party. The comparison is with the way the Labour Party is adressing the issue of anti-semitism. And it is the same way that the Catholic Church attempted to deal with abuse accusations - blame the accusers, blame the media, anti-church bias, etc. etc. It is the same, tactic by tactic.
Plenty in the Church said the accusations were the work of the "devil". Substitute that with "the Israeli lobby" or "Mossad" and you have the current Labour leadership ball game. Just because the far right anti-semites are obnoxious it doesn't excuse the cover being given to far left anti-semites.

James Brown · 11-07-2019 7:45pm

1641 wrote: »

Now you are being ridiculous. Nobody is suggesting anything about rape in the Labour party. The comparison is with the way the Labour Party is adressing the issue of anti-semitism. And it is the same way that the Catholic Church attempted to deal with abuse accusations - blame the accusers, blame the media, anti-church bias, etc. etc. It is the same, tactic by tactic.
Plenty in the Church said the accusations were the work of the "devil". Substitute that with "the Israeli lobby" or "Mossad" and you have the current Labour leadership ball game. Just because the far right anti-semites are obnoxious it doesn't excuse the cover being given to far left anti-semites.

I was pointing out the ridiculousness of your comparison.
Basically you're saying covering up instead of dealing will cause big trouble down the line. That would be a fair assessment. However if there's little or nothing to address the Israeli lobby can cry inaction, and go on their merry way smearing anyone critical of Israeli policy. The Israelis use antisemetism anytime anyone is critical of Israel. This is known so don't try make it blaming the accusers because the accusers aren't representatives of the Jewish faith but shills for Israel.

Dohnjoe · 11-07-2019 7:57pm

Tony EH wrote: »

It's not supported by any data at all. That's the problem. This is just cheap, empty, allegation.

I agree but only to an extent, the UK is not (on the scale of things) a very anti-semitic country

Polls on these subjects are .. complex. For example, if you poll people on whether they are racist, most, if not all, will, through a series of responses claim they aren't racist. Yet if questions change to whether they have ever witnessed racist comments by people they knew, friends, family, colleagues - the numbers can reverse - contradicting each other

Data has a certain levels of accuracy and certain limits depending on the subject and nature of the issue

As for the climate within an organisation, it's hard to put a dataset on that. If the climate is not conducive to rooting out e.g. anti-semitism, if in fact, it goes in reverse to those principles - then we have an issue. That certainly appears to be the case in Labour at the moment. It's certainly not a "few disgruntled employees", we have portions of the labour investigative team with other labour members corroborating their views. The leaked mails also support these views.

Am waiting for the outcome of the EHCR investigation

Tony EH · 11-07-2019 8:04pm

The data gathered by The Institute for Jewish Policy Research isn't a "poll". It's an amalgamation of the accusations levelled at the party. This wasn't straw poll or street questionnaire.

It was simply the results of an investigation.

What's at the centre of this brouhaha, is a lot of accusation and very little substance. The thing is, anybody can make an allegation. They're cheap. But, it doesn't add up to much if there is nothing to back it up and so far, the evidence gathered doesn't back up the allegation.

And when there's way more spurious allegation than there is hard fact, even though it STILL adds up to an incredibly paltry figure, everyone should be suspicious.

Dohnjoe · 11-07-2019 8:15pm

Tony EH wrote: »

The data gathered by The Institute for Jewish Policy Research isn't a "poll". It's an amalgamation of the accusations levelled at the party. This wasn't straw poll or street questionnaire.

Yeah I've read it, it's a poll containing questions to determine how anti-Israel or anti-semitic the poll recipients were

We have no data on the climate within a particular party

What's at the centre of this brouhaha, is a lot of accusation and very little substance. The thing is, anybody can make an allegation. They're cheap. But, it doesn't add up to much if there is nothing to back it up and so far, the evidence gathered doesn't back up the allegation.

And when there's way more spurious allegation than there is hard fact, even though it STILL adds up to an incredibly paltry figure, everyone should be suspicious.

Absolutely, anyone can make up an allegation, it's gets exponentially more difficult the more people come out, put their necks on the line - with their allegations corroborating each other. Especially those on teams deliberately set up to investigate impartially - they all sat round on their lunch break and decided to torpedo their own party for no reason? all of them?

Would like some evidence for any speculated answer to that also

The leaked emails also support them - extreme ineptness from the top at best, direct interference at worst

Tony EH · 11-07-2019 8:34pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Yeah I've read it, it's a poll

You're mixing up two different items.

I am talking about the accusational data gathered that resulted in the 0.08% figure of anti Semitic clams against the Labour Party, not the nationwide study they did to determine the level of Anti Semitism in Britain.

12-07-2019 8:26am

I see that old reliable of the rabid right and former home of Seamus Milne, The Guardian, has got on board the bandwagon of smearing the non-racist, non-anti-semitic home of virtue and righteousness, the Corbynista Labour Party:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jul/11/labour-antisemitism-30-whistleblowers-to-give-evidence-to-ehrc

Danzy · 12-07-2019 10:01am

1641 wrote: »

I see that old reliable of the rabid right and former home of Seamus Milne, The Guardian, has got on board the bandwagon of smearing the non-racist, non-anti-semitic home of virtue and righteousness, the Corbynista Labour Party:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jul/11/labour-antisemitism-30-whistleblowers-to-give-evidence-to-ehrc

They are all Jewish plotters or Mossad bought, to say such things exist in Labour.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 12-07-2019 3:06pm

1641 wrote: »

I see that old reliable of the rabid right and former home of Seamus Milne, The Guardian, has got on board the bandwagon of smearing the non-racist, non-anti-semitic home of virtue and righteousness, the Corbynista Labour Party:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jul/11/labour-antisemitism-30-whistleblowers-to-give-evidence-to-ehrc

The guardian has been majority hostile to Corbyn from the beginning, as has most of the free and unbiased British press.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 12-07-2019 3:06pm

Well, that worked.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1149680897240817665?s=21

James Brown · 12-07-2019 4:01pm

1641 wrote: »

I see that old reliable of the rabid right and former home of Seamus Milne, The Guardian, has got on board the bandwagon of smearing the non-racist, non-anti-semitic home of virtue and righteousness, the Corbynista Labour Party:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jul/11/labour-antisemitism-30-whistleblowers-to-give-evidence-to-ehrc

Do you genuinely believe Corbyn, if elected Prime Minister, would engage in antisemitic policy and even if he did, he would be allowed to or get away with it?
It's not credible.

What's more likely is a move to smear any party or politician decent enough to criticise Israel. If Ireland was more important to Israel we'd be hearing how Coveney is an antisemite.

Oh wait....:)

Israel gives Irish ambassador severe dressing down for ‘anti-Semitic’ Dáil Bill
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/israel-gives-irish-ambassador-severe-dressing-down-for-anti-semitic-d%C3%A1il-bill-1.3770529

markodaly · 12-07-2019 4:04pm

Corbyn is like Tommy Robinson, says they are not Anti-Muslim but their actions state otherwise.

James Brown · 12-07-2019 4:07pm

markodaly wrote: »

Corbyn is like Tommy Robinson, says they are not Anti-Muslim but their actions state otherwise.
...

Actions like what?

Gringo180 · 12-07-2019 4:08pm

markodaly wrote: »

Corbyn is like Tommy Robinson, says they are not Anti-Muslim but their actions state otherwise.

Shoe me evidence of Corbyn saying anything remotely Anti-Semetic?

Robert Mugabe is a scumbag and should be in the Hague does that make me a rascist?

markodaly · 12-07-2019 4:10pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Actions like what?

Endorsing and defending a clearly overt anti-Semitic mural like the one I posted.

Odhinn · 12-07-2019 4:13pm

markodaly wrote: »

Endorsing and defending a clearly overt anti-Semitic mural like the one I posted.

...how's that mural anti semetic....? I've seen dozens of anti-semetic cartoons and caricatures and that one doesn't fit the bill.

James Brown · 12-07-2019 4:14pm

markodaly wrote: »

Endorsing and defending a clearly overt anti-Semitic mural like the one I posted.

Corbyn regrets defending London mural he now says is anti-Semitic

“I sincerely regret that I did not look more closely at the image” in question when he defended the artist’s artistic freedom in 2012.

This prompted Corbyn’s expression of regret, in which he added that the contents of the mural “are deeply disturbing and anti-Semitic. I wholeheartedly support its removal.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/corbyn-regrets-defending-london-mural-he-now-says-is-anti-semitic/

He defended the artistic right of the painter and withdrew support when a Jewish colleague said she found it antisemetic. He's a monster... :rolleyes:
What else?

Gringo180 · 12-07-2019 4:15pm

markodaly wrote: »

Endorsing and defending a clearly overt anti-Semitic mural like the one I posted.

The Rockefellers in the above mural are not Jewish?

Danzy · 12-07-2019 4:22pm

Odhinn wrote: »

...how's that mural anti semetic....? I've seen dozens of anti-semetic cartoons and caricatures and that one doesn't fit the bill.

Your digging yourself a hole with that post a chara.

Dig up.

12-07-2019 4:32pm

Odhinn wrote: »

...how's that mural anti semetic....? I've seen dozens of anti-semetic cartoons and caricatures and that one doesn't fit the bill.

If you can't see that the mural is anti-semitic then you are in serious denial. Corbyn has devoted his whole life to left/Trot politics so he can't plead ignorance, even if some others hide behind it :

"During the 1920s and 1930s the Protocols were a key element of the Nazi propaganda programme – at least 23 editions were published by the party in the two decades that preceded the outbreak of the second world war in 1939. The domination of the world by hooknosed men wielding power and money? There is more than a visual connection in this mural to antisemitism – the messaging is full-blown Nazi too." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/28/antisemitism-open-your-eyes-jeremy-corbyn-labour

And how about lauding Raed Salah and inviting him for tea at the Commons. Salah of:

“We have never allowed ourselves to knead [the dough for] the bread that breaks the fast in the holy month of Ramadan with children's blood. Whoever wants a more thorough explanation, let him ask what used to happen to some children in Europe, whose blood was mixed in with the dough of the [Jewish] holy bread.”

Oh Sorry. You can't see anything anti-semitic about that?

Corbyn gives good sound bites about anti-semitism. But they don't match his actions.

James Brown · 12-07-2019 4:34pm

1641 wrote: »

If you can't see that the mural is anti-semitic then you are in serious denial. Corbyn has devoted his whole life to left/Trot politics so he can't plead ignorance, even if some others hide behind it :

"During the 1920s and 1930s the Protocols were a key element of the Nazi propaganda programme – at least 23 editions were published by the party in the two decades that preceded the outbreak of the second world war in 1939. The domination of the world by hooknosed men wielding power and money? There is more than a visual connection in this mural to antisemitism – the messaging is full-blown Nazi too." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/28/antisemitism-open-your-eyes-jeremy-corbyn-labour

And how about lauding Raed Salah and inviting him for tea at the Commons. Salah of:

“We have never allowed ourselves to knead [the dough for] the bread that breaks the fast in the holy month of Ramadan with children's blood. Whoever wants a more thorough explanation, let him ask what used to happen to some children in Europe, whose blood was mixed in with the dough of the [Jewish] holy bread.”

Oh Sorry. You can't see anything anti-semitic about that?

Corbyn gives good sound bites about anti-semitism. But they don't match his actions.

So you're just going to skip over responses and get back on song? Fair enough.
You'll miss Corbyn when he's gone and your far right pals turn attention back on the Jews. Israel might likely do okay though. It's always the everyday folk take the brunt.

markodaly · 12-07-2019 4:46pm

Odhinn wrote: »

...how's that mural anti semetic....? I've seen dozens of anti-semetic cartoons and caricatures and that one doesn't fit the bill.

Not Anti-Semitic?

Lets have another look.

Talk about a Jewish New World Order.
Jews being the 'enemy of humanity'
Jews depicted with big hooked noses, and beards sitting around a monopoly board, I guess they must like the money?
Jews being depicted as the puppet masters of capitalism and crushing the poor.
And of course, the all-seeing eye, a conspiracy theory symbol that "Jews run the world"

Goebbels would have been proud of this work. Elders of Zion all over this.

If you cannot see this mural as Anti-Semitic, then the problem is really with you.

markodaly · 12-07-2019 4:51pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

He defended the artistic right of the painter and withdrew support when a Jewish colleague said she found it antisemetic. He's a monster... :rolleyes:
What else?

Corbyn found it anti-Semitic when he looked a 'bit' closer.

What else? His meeting with Hamas and calling them his friends is highly questionable.

Hamas is like ISIS, a deeply reactive conservative Islamic right-wing group who will likely kill gays as much as Jews. If an MP invited actual Nazis to a meeting they too would be rightly condemned.

Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe

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