Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe

Dohnjoe

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I'd be more likely to believe the shiny tory Blarites didn't want a return to socialism and both they and the media are playing this ruse to death.

9 MPs and 3 peers leaving the party due to anti-semitism and hundreds of outstanding complaints against Labour members. And what looks like a pretty shocking expose coming tonight. Doesn't look like a ruse - it looks like what it is, a genuinely serious problem within the party.

James Brown

Dohnjoe wrote: »

9 MPs and 3 peers leaving the party due to anti-semitism and hundreds of outstanding complaints against Labour members. And what looks like a pretty shocking expose coming tonight. Doesn't look like a ruse - it looks like what it is, a genuinely serious problem within the party.

I've yet to see any evidence of Corbyn being an antisemite.
The party has problems. The Blarites should contact the Tories for work.

ILoveYourVibes

It's kind of an indicator of the selfishness of the left and right that TOPIC and not just in this thread but in general has turned into a squabble about them between them.

Tony EH

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I've yet to see any evidence or Corbyn being an antisemite.
The party has problems. The Blarites should contact the Tories for work.

There isn't any.

And anything that has been put forward as some sort of gotcha has been very poor, to say the least.

It's nothing but a smear campaign. But a really dangerous and irresponsible one. Because real anti-semites, those on the far right, are sniggering up their sleeves.

Durag

Tony EH wrote: »

There isn't any.

And anything that has been put forward as some sort of gotcha has been very poor, to say the least.

It's nothing but a smear campaign. But a really dangerous and irresponsible one. Because real anti-semites, those on the far right, are sniggering up their sleeves.

Correct, there is no "labour anti semitism crises" I've no doubt there probably has been some anti semites in the labour party but when you look at all the islamaphobia going on in the conservatives it really makes you wonder why this is getting highlighted so much. It's funny how this was never an issue before Corbyn took over...

Even prominent Jews have come out and called this like it is - a smear campaign. Weaponising something like that benefits the actual anti semities who are right now using this "crisis' to attack socialism and show their support for Israel but only because of Israel's treatment of Muslims and minorities. They will be back attacking Jews afterwards

Danzy

That's it, it's all a big plot, nothing to see.

Dohnjoe

Tony EH wrote: »

There isn't any.

And anything that has been put forward as some sort of gotcha has been very poor, to say the least.

It's nothing but a smear campaign. But a really dangerous and irresponsible one. Because real anti-semites, those on the far right, are sniggering up their sleeves.

There is a serious problem on both fringes. I suggest taking a look at the Panorama from last night, pretty shocking stuff.

Tony EH

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There is a serious problem on both fringes. I suggest taking a look at the Panorama from last night, pretty shocking stuff.

The actual data shows a different story.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/check-evidence/

Dohnjoe

Tony EH wrote: »

The actual data shows a different story.

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/check-evidence/

Jonathan Coulter is an activist on Middle-Eastern affairs and media reform. Newsletter Editor for Liberal Democrats Friends of Palestine, 2016-2018
* Dr Alan Maddison is a former Director of Strategic Planning and associate member of JVL
* Tim Llewellyn is a former BBC Middle East Correspondent, and long-time critic of the BBC’s pro-Israel bias

Indeed. I am going on the self-evident and corroborating testimony directly from the party members and the investigators themselves as well as the emails which demonstrate high level interference in what were supposed to be impartial investigations

And don't try to turn this into a partisan thing, I am well aware of racism across the board on all sides. The evidence that there has been a serious rise of overt and internal anti-semitism within at least one of the UK's main parties is damning

Tony EH

^
:pac:

How selective of you.

There's also data from Home Office, National Centre for Social Research and The Institute for Jewish Policy Research







But, sure ignore actual data and instead concentrate on vague and nebulous accusations and claims instead.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The evidence that there has been a serious rise of overt and internal anti-semitism within at least one of the UK's main parties is damning

No. It isn't. That's the problem.

Dohnjoe

Tony EH wrote: »

But, sure ignore actual data and instead concentrate on vague and nebulous accusations and claims instead.

Not ignoring the data, but I know how data can be massaged, selectively highlighted and selectively applied by partisan types for partisan narratives (which is why I highlighted the authors)

Also people who are already biased/partisan will always try to divert/deflect from a source they want to defend onto a source they want to attack, which is another glaring problem in this debate, anti-semitism is anti-semitism regardless of source, no excuses

There is a rising problem with anti-semitism across the full spectrum, and especially the fringes. If someone wants to produce solid testimony from any other parties that's fine. I am highlighting the very obvious evidence and testimony from one UK party at the moment

Tony EH

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Not ignoring the data, but I know how data can be massaged, selectively highlighted and selectively applied by partisan types for partisan narratives (which is why I highlighted the authors)

The data above was taken from The Institute for Jewish Policy Research.

Which ethno-religious group would that organisation be partisan toward, I wonder. Hmmmmm.

The facts of the matter are these. There were:

1106 allegations logged
433 were by people with no association with the Labour party
220 dismissed due to lack of any evidence

Which Leaves 453 cases to be investigated and the nature of those have yet to be fully determined. That's roughly 0.08%

Which destroys any accusation that there is a significant problem with anti-Semitism within the British Labour party.

Igotadose

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Not ignoring the data, but I know how data can be massaged, selectively highlighted and selectively applied by partisan types for partisan narratives (which is why I highlighted the authors)

Also people who are already biased/partisan will always try to divert/deflect from a source they want to defend onto a source they want to attack, which is another glaring problem in this debate, anti-semitism is anti-semitism regardless of source, no excuses

There is a rising problem with anti-semitism across the full spectrum, and especially the fringes. If someone wants to produce solid testimony from any other parties that's fine. I am highlighting the very obvious evidence and testimony from one UK party at the moment

And you're spot on, looking into "Dr. Alan Maddison" the source of the graphic above. He's got a history of obfuscation.

http://www.danielallington.net/2017/11/antisemitism-and-the-misuse-of-statistics/

Further, that organization, "Jewish Voice for Labour" is a thinly-disguised pro-Palestinian propaganda outfit: https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/jewish-voice-for-labour-secretary-glyn-secker-tells-pro-palestine-rally-that-jews-are-in-the-gutter-1.484043

Tony EH

^

I suppose The Institute for Jewish Policy Research must be as well.

:pac:

Igotadose

Tony EH wrote: »

^

I suppose The Institute for Jewish Policy Research must be as well.

:pac:

No, but we can't trust a summary of their data by some pro-Palestinian apologist, like DohnJoe mentioned, which is what "Jewish Voice for Labor" is.

Tony EH

Igotadose wrote: »

No, but we can't trust a summary of their data by some pro-Palestinian apologist, like DohnJoe mentioned, which is what "Jewish Voice for Labor" is.

More unfounded smears.

The data is there to see and it doesn't support the accusation that there's a serious problem within Labour to do with Anti Semitism.

Danzy

Maybe the general member is not anti Semitic, maybe the problem in concentrated in the party structures, representatives and more full on activists.

mynamejeff

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There is a serious problem on both fringes. I suggest taking a look at the Panorama from last night, pretty shocking stuff.

I watched that Panorama , seemed like a parade of emotionally fragile people who have been sacked or forced to resign making allegations to camera in dark rooms with mood music without any real proof .

i have very little interest in UK politics but even i could see it was a very weak effort

Tony EH

mynamejeff wrote: »

I watched that Panorama , seemed like a parade of emotionally fragile people who have been sacked or forced to resign making allegations to camera in dark rooms with mood music without any real proof .

i have very little interest in UK politics but even i could see it was a very weak effort

Made by ex Sun Journo and noted Corbyn hater, John Ware.

No reason to be sceptical at all about that show.

Danzy

Tony EH wrote: »

Made by ex Sun Journo and noted Corbyn hater, John Ware.

No reason to be sceptical at all about that show.

John Wares wife is Jewish, so there will be some animosity between himself and Corbyn.

He has done great documentaries on legal injustices which contributed to those cases being overturned.

Tony EH

Danzy wrote: »

John Wares wife is Jewish, so there will be some animosity between himself and Corbyn.

He has done great documentaries on legal injustices which contributed to those cases being overturned.

His wife's ethnicity or religion has nothing to do with anything.

He's done done hatchet jobs on Corbyn before.

Dohnjoe

Tony EH wrote: »

The data above was taken from The Institute for Jewish Policy Research.

Which ethno-religious group would that organisation be partisan toward, I wonder. Hmmmmm.

The facts of the matter are these. There were:

1106 allegations logged
433 were by people with no association with the Labour party
220 dismissed due to lack of any evidence

Which Leaves 453 cases to be investigated and the nature of those have yet to be fully determined. That's roughly 0.08%

Which destroys any accusation that there is a significant problem with anti-Semitism within the British Labour party.

The issue is the accusation that there has been an increase in anti-semitism in that party in the last few years as well as the parties handling of that increase and anti-semitism in general

Zero tolerance from the leadership toward anti-semitism appears to be contradicted by leaked emails

The independence of investigators compromised by more senior members as per leaked emails and testimony from members of those teams themselves

We all know there are people who have (quite rightly) a firm stance against the Israel government, but the problem is there is an overlap with those on the fringe who are also anti-Israel and/or anti-semitic. Corbyn's election led to a massive influx of these people joining the party - so it's unsurprising that there's been a resulting increase in anti-semitism in that party

The issue is not just that it's present, it's that the party is not applying the promised zero tolerance policy towards it

quokula

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The issue is the accusation that there has been an increase in anti-semitism in that party in the last few years

Statistically, that accusation is false. According to all polling and analysis, there has been a drop in anti-semitic beliefs within Labour over the past few years. There has been an increase in spurious anti-semitic complaints which proved false however.

as well as the parties handling of that increase and anti-semitism in general

Zero tolerance from the leadership toward anti-semitism appears to be contradicted by leaked emails

The independence of investigators compromised by more senior members as per leaked emails and testimony from members of those teams themselves

We all know there are people who have (quite rightly) a firm stance against the Israel government, but the problem is there is an overlap with those on the fringe who are also anti-Israel and/or anti-semitic. Corbyn's election led to a massive influx of these people joining the party - so it's unsurprising that there's been a resulting increase in anti-semitism in that party

The issue is not just that it's present, it's that the party is not applying the promised zero tolerance policy towards it

As for the rest, the party could do better in their disciplinary process but a big part of it was the huge increase in spurious politically motivated claims creating a backlog that they struggled to deal with. And the press have successfully created ridiculous double standards that pressures the leadership to get involved whenever it is politically useful for their opponents (e.g. tons of headlines saying Corbyn should override the disciplinary board and kick out Chris Williamson), but mercilessly attacks the leadership if they ever do show signs of getting involved.

RoyalCelt

The sooner catholics, Jews, protestants, Muslims etc stop believing in their fairy tales the better. At this stage it's embarrassing looking at these religiously motivated groups especially if they're under the age of 30. Grow up.

Tony EH

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The issue is the accusation that there has been an increase in anti-semitism in that party in the last few years...

No.

The accusation is that there is a significant problem within Labour regarding Anti Semitism.

The data, however shows this is not the case. Even if the claims logged were doubled and every single one of them were upheld, it would constitute and EXTREME minority of Labour membership.

The issue comes down to WHY are these claims being made and WHO benefits from a fractured or destroyed Labour Party.

markodaly

Tony EH wrote: »

^

I suppose The Institute for Jewish Policy Research must be as well.

:pac:

Well the IHRA was critical of the fact that the Labour party watered down the definition of Anti-Semitism during their 2018 adoption of new anti-semitism code of ethics.
They subsequently relented and adopted the full IHRA definition.

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

Going by the above, there are lots of people here who would have questions to answer.

LuckyLloyd

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There is a serious problem on both fringes. I suggest taking a look at the Panorama from last night, pretty shocking stuff.

It wasn’t shocking at all. It merely confirmed that there is an attempt to conflate criticism of the Israeli state and the advocacy of a two state solution in Palestine with anti semitism. And also that there is a real fear of a two state solution advocate becoming PM amongst pro Israel Jews (pro Israel being a key nuance).

James Brown

Danzy wrote: »

Maybe the general member is not anti Semitic, maybe the problem in concentrated in the party structures, representatives and more full on activists.

"If ifs and buts were candy and nuts... Uh, how does the rest of that go?" - Homer Simpson.

Seem to be scraping the barrel for 'evidence' now.

1641

How shocking does this sound? Would it be evidence of racism - or at least giving succour to racism ?

“Theresa May defended and offered her support to an EDL spokeman who has a history of proclaiming racist anti-black slurs, including that “African people use the blood of white children in their cooking pots”. She subsequently invited the spokesman to have tea with her in the House of Commons. Challenged on the outrageousness of this, she said “Well, he never said anything racist to me”.

Of course, this never happened. But substitute Jeremy Corbyn for Theresa May, and Raed Salah for the “EDL spokeman” and you have it. This is Raed Salah who declared (among many other things) that:

“We have never allowed ourselves to knead [the dough for] the bread that breaks the fast in the holy month of Ramadan with children's blood. Whoever wants a more thorough explanation, let him ask what used to happen to some children in Europe, whose blood was mixed in with the dough of the [Jewish] holy bread.”

Not alone did he offer him enthusiastic support but Mr Corbyn invited Mr Salah for tea in the Commons and declared that “he did not at any stage utter any antisemitic remarks to me”.
So that’s all right then?

Tony EH

markodaly wrote: »

Well the IHRA was critical of the fact that the Labour party watered down the definition of Anti-Semitism during their 2018 adoption of new anti-semitism code of ethics.
They subsequently relented and adopted the full IHRA definition.

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

Going by the above, there are lots of people here who would have questions to answer.

The Labour party didn't "water" anything down. They were concerned about the number of times the "State of Israel" was mentioned in that list.

And they're right to be so.

It's no secret that the likes of Bibi and the Likud are desirous to have criticism of Israel conflated to mean anti Semitism.