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Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe

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    #902
    Kimsang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭Kimsang


    I don't get why the left ranks Jewish people so low in the oppression olympics. I mean they only suffered an absolute atrocity within the last century, don't really have a place to call home, are completely surrounded by hostile neighbours and only account for .0192% of the world's population. You'd think they would be the most protected class.
    Its weird that both the far left and far right both seem to endorse antisemitism; I guess both are fans of conspiracy theories.


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    #903
    1123heavy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭1123heavy


    Kimsang wrote: »
    I don't get why the left ranks Jewish people so low in the oppression olympics. I mean they only suffered an absolute atrocity within the last century, don't really have a place to call home, are completely surrounded by hostile neighbours and only account for .0192% of the world's population. You'd think they would be the most protected class.
    Its weird that both the far left and far right both seem to endorse antisemitism; I guess both are fans of conspiracy theories.

    But you fall into the trap of believing 'the left ranks Jewish people so low in the oppression olympics', why? Just because the Daily Mail said so? Just about every paper you read is backed by a large corporation who are owned by someone with a vested interest in what their readers believe to be true.

    I am a 'left' leaning voter and I can assure you I harbour 0 ill feelings towards anybody of any faith. I know many other left leaning voters who are the same. Just because the papers say Corbyn is an anti semite, well it doesn't mean he really is.


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    #904
    Kimsang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭Kimsang


    1123heavy wrote: »
    But you fall into the trap of believing 'the left ranks Jewish people so low in the oppression olympics', why? Just because the Daily Mail said so?
    Just because the papers say Corbyn is an anti semite, well it doesn't mean he really is.

    How about the testimony of 30 whistleblowers? 4 recent additions have broken non-disclosure agreements. It looks pretty serious.
    • “The testimonies of whistleblowers confirm what we have suspected for some time. The culture and scale of antisemitism within the[labour] party has been perpetuated and exacerbated by those at the very top. Those responsible must be held accountable."
    Jewish Labour Movement Spokesperson
    The Guardian


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    #905
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Kimsang wrote: »
    I don't get why the left ranks Jewish people so low in the oppression olympics. I mean they only suffered an absolute atrocity within the last century, don't really have a place to call home, are completely surrounded by hostile neighbours and only account for .0192% of the world's population. You'd think they would be the most protected class.
    Its weird that both the far left and far right both seem to endorse antisemitism; I guess both are fans of conspiracy theories.

    The history of the left and Labour parties everywhere proves this idea false. In fact,

    MOST JEWS BY FAR ARE LEFT LEANING IN THEIR POLITICS AND ARE TRADITIONALLY LABOUR VOTERS.

    Is there an issue in the British Labour Party with some members harbouring anti Semitic views? On balance, there probably is. But, given that there's half a million Labour Party members, I find that unsurprising really.

    Does the data gathered show that it's endemic, institutionalised, or even that widespread?

    No. Not in the slightest.

    In addition, there are precious few names, being named here. There, so far has only been allegations. "Somebody said...", " Somebody did..." Who? Name the people. Somebody called me a bad name simply isn't good enough as a case. It's not good enough at all. Evidence is SORELY LACKING AT ALL LEVELS.

    IF there's anything to be drawn from the recent John Ware hatchet job (a guy who's had it in for Corbyn since Day 1 BTW), it's that these people feel that they were drummed out of Labour. That certainly isn't the way to deal with the issue on any kind of level. But that programme, as polished as it was, was very, very poor. A few minutes in and John Ware is defaming Ken Livingstone, who's remarks about Zionist meetings with the Nazis about a possible Jewish homeland is true. When a matter of actual historical fact is lied about at the beginning of your programme, you know you're on dodgy ground. The meetings between ZVD and the NASDAP resulting in the Haavara agreement happened. "Zero Tolerance" for Anti Semitism is a fine aspiration. Zero tolerance for the historical record is not. The programme didn't even mention the Haavara Agreement. Regardless of how one feels about "Red Ken", and I'm not a fan myself, he was correct. When one is attacked for stating an historical fact, that should set off alarm bells for everyone, regardless of their political leanings.

    Labour is tearing itself apart over this and the only ones that will gain from it are those on the right -> where there real anti Semites are. If the Tories were subjected to the same level of attack, I'd wager that you find many more anti Semites in their ranks and god alone knows what the count would be if UKIP were looked at. These folks are laughing uncontrollably at all this.

    At the very least, what this whole thing has provided is just how quickly rumour and allegation can be misconstrued as fact, if it's repeated often enough.

    The EHRC is looking into the matter at present, so we'll see what they bring to the table. They may find some more actual data on the matter and not just more "he said, she said...", which is, practically, worthless.


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    #906
    Kimsang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭Kimsang


    Tony EH wrote: »
    MOST JEWS BY FAR ARE LEFT LEANING IN THEIR POLITICS AND ARE TRADITIONALLY LABOUR VOTERS.
    The EHRC is looking into the matter at present, so we'll see what they bring to the table.

    Indeed, but it is a bit disingenuous. The Labour party received 673 complaints about antisemitism between April 2018 and January 2019 alone, an average of more than two complaints per day. Ninety-six Labour members were suspended for antisemitism during that time period, and 12 were outright expelled.

    Almost 40 percent of Jews say they would “seriously consider” leaving the country if Labour wins the next parliamentary election.

    I would argue when right wingers play identity politics, they are rightfully called out as disgusting and foul. But identity politics has become so ingrained in the left, they are slower to call out their bull$***ers in the form of Corbyn.

    Recent antisemitic remarks by Rep. Ilhan Omar also highlight this point, and how the media and other politicians reacted.
    Chelsea Clinton was blamed for the NZ attacks because she spoke out against antisemitism.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/6/18251639/ilhan-omar-israel-anti-semitism-jews


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    #907
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Kimsang wrote: »
    Indeed, but it is a bit disingenuous.

    It's not "disingenuous" at all. It's a matter of fact. Labour parties have always been more well disposed to Jews than parties of other persuasions.
    Kimsang wrote: »
    The Labour party received 673 complaints about antisemitism between April 2018 and January 2019 alone

    Complaints are easy. Allegations are easy. I could make a complaint against you tomorrow. It's a simple thing to do.

    But, those complaints and allegations have to be backed up with proof and without proof, they're just existing in a vacuum and so far that proof has been very thin on the ground.


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    #908
    Kimsang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭Kimsang


    Tony EH wrote: »
    It's not "disingenuous" at all. It's a matter of fact. Labour parties have always been more well disposed to Jews than parties of other persuasions.
    .
    Whats disingenuous is ignoring this part

    Almost 40 percent of Jews say they would “seriously consider” leaving the country if Labour wins the next parliamentary election.


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    #909
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Kimsang wrote: »
    Whats disingenuous is ignoring this part

    Almost 40 percent of Jews say they would “seriously consider” leaving the country if Labour wins the next parliamentary election.

    Frankly, I find that absurd hyperbole and not even remotely reflective of any kind of reality.


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    #910
    Kimsang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭Kimsang


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Frankly, I find that absurd hyperbole and not even remotely reflective of any kind of reality.

    How can a fact be hyperbolic?


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    #911
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Kimsang wrote: »
    How can a fact be hyperbolic?

    Hyperbolic statements are not facts.

    This is merely a "percentage" put forward from 'The Jewish Chronicle', that's the only fact here.

    Next week, that statistic could be different. Another publication could show another statistic entirely.


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    #912
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭1641


    Tony EH wrote: »
    The history of the left and Labour parties everywhere proves this idea false. In fact,

    MOST JEWS BY FAR ARE LEFT LEANING IN THEIR POLITICS AND ARE TRADITIONALLY LABOUR VOTERS.

    Is there an issue in the British Labour Party with some members harbouring anti Semitic views? On balance, there probably is. But, given that there's half a million Labour Party members, I find that unsurprising really.
    ....

    Labour is tearing itself apart over this and the only ones that will gain from it are those on the right -> where there real anti Semites are. If the Tories were subjected to the same level of attack, I'd wager that you find many more anti Semites in their ranks and god alone knows what the count would be if UKIP were looked at. These folks are laughing uncontrollably at all this.
    ....
    The EHRC is looking into the matter at present, so we'll see what they bring to the table. They may find some more actual data on the matter and not just more "he said, she said...", which is, practically, worthless.


    Yes, the Labour Party was traditionally the "home" of British Labour voters. No doubt there was also the occasional anti-semite in the party, as there are everywhere. However, the problem of explicit anti-semitism on a more widespread scale only became an issue with the influx of new hard left members around the time of Corbyn's ledership campaign. There was a hisrory of anti-semitism there, as there has been in much hard left politics. Whether Corbyn is personally anti-semite I don't know. But those surrounding him harbour them. I wouldn't say they are his groupies, as they are probablyy using him more than he is using them.


    Yes, the Tories are benefitting but that is down to Labour not dealing with it.


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    #913
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    1641 wrote: »
    However, the problem of explicit anti-semitism on a more widespread scale only became an issue with the influx of new hard left members around the time of Corbyn's ledership campaign.

    There has been nothing to prove this though.

    Without actual proof, that statement is just a load of words.

    If anti Semitism in the Labour was so rife as some would have us believe, there would be copious amounts of real evidence available (I'm not talking about mere "claims").

    Yet, so far, what's been put forward has been incredibly anaemic.

    Maybe, at the heart of all this there are genuine cases to be investigated and if there is fault found, then action should be taken. Perhaps Labour could be quicker to look into the cases as well - but investigating something based on "someone said something, something, something, to me once in 2015..." is an extremely difficult prospect, indeed, and not something that's solved overnight.


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    #914
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭1641


    Tony EH wrote: »
    There has been nothing to prove this though.

    Without actual proof, that statement is just a load of words.

    If anti Semitism in the Labour was so rife as some would have us believe, there would be copious amounts of real evidence available (I'm not talking about mere "claims").

    Yet, so far, what's been put forward has been incredibly anaemic.

    Maybe, at the heart of all this there are genuine cases to be investigated and if there is fault found, then action should be taken. Perhaps Labour could be quicker to look into the cases as well - but investigating something based on "someone said something, something, something, to me once in 2015..." is an extremely difficult prospect, indeed, and not something that's solved overnight.[/QUOTE


    You seem to want evidence of someone in leadership declaring "we are now anti-semitic" or running out with a knife and sticking it in a Jew. There is evidence of a pattern of behaviour that would have been unthinkable until a few years ago, eg, newly elected MP Lisa Forbes liking a Facebook post saying that Theresa May had "a Zionist slave master's agenda". Many if not all Jewish MPs reporting that they have faced anti-semitic attacks at party meetings, etc. The Williamson and Liningstone sagas. Are these all being prompted by "the Tory Media"? There have been plenty of other examples reported.

    As for investigations, these are fundamental to the criticisms that have been raised, ie, that the new left in the leadership office have interferred in investigations - slowing down processes, changing terms of reference, packing new members in committees, etc. It is not good enough for the Labour leadership office to blame "disaffected members" , "the media", etc. This has been the tactic of every organization that has attempted to avoid scrutiny.
    As you say, British Jews have largely been Labour voters traditionally. How did Labour do in Jewish areas in the recent local elections? Look at the conclusions of this recent Survation poll: https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/antisemitism-is-the-key-election-issue-for-28-per-cent-of-jews-1.481849.


    There is no point in the leadership blaming others furiously about this. They should address the isssues thoroughly, openly and speedily. However, I suspect that there is a significant cabal that does not want it addressed - for obvious reasons.


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    #915
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    1641 wrote: »
    You seem to want evidence of someone in leadership declaring "we are now anti-semitic" or running out with a knife and sticking it in a Jew.

    That's just silly nonsense.

    I want the claims backed up. So far we just have claims and claims are cheap.


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    #916
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,390 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Tony EH wrote: »
    That's just silly nonsense.

    I want the claims backed up. So far we just have claims and claims are cheap.

    Calm down Eichmann,

    Look at groups like Labour Against Anti Semitism, who compiled a large dossier for the EHRC in Britain and who daily tweet about the latest anti Semitic outrages in Labour.


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    #917
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,799 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Danzy wrote: »
    Calm down Eichmann,

    Look at groups like Labour Against Anti Semitism, who compiled a large dossier for the EHRC in Britain and who daily tweet about the latest anti Semitic outrages in Labour.

    The EHRC has also warned them that if they withhold info they may be committing a criminal offence. They can't be jerked around like an internal investigation - will be interesting the see the results of this


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    #918
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,390 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    The EHRC has also warned them that if they withhold info they may be committing a criminal offence. They can't be jerked around like an internal investigation - will be interesting the see the results of this

    The threshold for the EHRC to launch an investigation like this is quite high as well.

    They take it seriously because it is so unusual.


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    #919
    Tokyo
    Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,655 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tokyo


    Danzy wrote: »
    Calm down Eichmann...

    Mod: Rein it in. Next comment like that will earn you an infraction.


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    #920
    1641
    Registered Users Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭1641


    British Labour's anti-semitism woes continue:
    "Today in a letter to the Observer, a group of leading Jewish figures express their “bewilderment and disgust” over the handling of antisemitism by Labour, which is already the subject of an investigation by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission. Howard Jacobson, Simon Sebag Montefiore, Sir Simon Schama, Neil Blair, Tracy-Ann Oberman and Rabbi Julia Neuberger say the EHRC inquiry “is not a matter of housekeeping but a taint of international, historic shame”.

    Separately 20 Labour MPs, all members of the Tribune Group, issued a statement expressing their shock at report of the party’s handling of cases and how individual employees have been treated. “We support former employees in speaking out and commend their bravery in doing so,” the MPs say.“The Labour Party has always and always will support whistleblowers in coming forward when they are concerned about wrongdoing. Today a poll reveals that a third of voters believe that Labour is now an antisemitic party. The YouGov poll, for the anti-racist Hope Not Hate campaign, found that 42% of voters believed antisemitism is a “genuine and serious issue” in Labour.

    It has also emerged that a group of Labour peers have discussed the idea of resigning en masse should the party not take more decisive action to tackle antisemitism and be more transparent about the party’s disciplinary processes."
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/13/whistleblowers-to-sue-labour-as-antisemitism-row-deepens


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    #921
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,390 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Another whistle blower coming forward today, this time he is from the Corbyn camp.


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    #922
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,999 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    1641 wrote: »
    British Labour's anti-semitism woes continue:
    "Today in a letter to the Observer, a group of leading Jewish figures express their “bewilderment and disgust” over the handling of antisemitism by Labour, which is already the subject of an investigation by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission. Howard Jacobson, Simon Sebag Montefiore, Sir Simon Schama, Neil Blair, Tracy-Ann Oberman and Rabbi Julia Neuberger say the EHRC inquiry “is not a matter of housekeeping but a taint of international, historic shame”.



    Just a bunch of Blairites and right-wing Tories, I suppose.

    Nothing to see here.


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    #923
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,799 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Labour MP Emily Thornberry has now weighed in: ""I think that we shouldn't be going for the messengers, we should be looking at the message. I think that is what is important."

    She also said: "nobody can pretend there isn't an ongoing problem"


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    #924
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Labour in UK, and Social Democrats in Sweden.
    Who could guess they'd turn out to be the baddies.


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    #925
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,390 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    biko wrote: »
    Labour in UK, and Social Democrats in Sweden.
    Who could guess they'd turn out to be the baddies.

    Anyone who listened to what many of their activists or senior members said outside of press releases.

    😎


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    #926
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,023 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    biko wrote: »
    Labour in UK, and Social Democrats in Sweden.
    Who could guess they'd turn out to be the baddies.




    An opinion piece by a right wing website mischaracterising statements and actions to a particular agenda. I'm sure there probably are a few anti-semites in the SD, but I wouldn't take that article without with a large pinch of salt.


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    #927
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Odhinn wrote: »
    An opinion piece by a right wing website mischaracterising statements and actions to a particular agenda. I'm sure there probably are a few anti-semites in the SD, but I wouldn't take that article without with a large pinch of salt.

    huffpost ? seriously ? theyre well regarded as heavily biased on the left.


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    #928
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,023 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    huffpost ? seriously ? theyre well regarded as heavily biased on the left.




    True. I got confussed - was thinking of Breitbart. It's still a crock though.


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    #929
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,175 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Being critical of the Israeli state should not be considered anti semitism.


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    #930
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,390 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Being critical of the Israeli state should not be considered anti semitism.

    No, nor should even advocating armed resistance to Israel's occupation.

    It is the classic Jew baiting that has made this a problem for Labour.

    Continuously turning a blind eye and having to be forced to concede small steps is what makes it verge on existential for them.


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    #931
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,984 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Being critical of the Israeli state should not be considered anti semitism.

    Neither should anti Zionism.

    But there are those who wish to see both defined as anti Semitism.

    One can be against a certain political view like Zionism and can be critical of a nation's policies, like those of Israel, without hating the people of that nation or those that reside elsewhere. But there are those that want to package everything under the banner of anti Semitism and they do so because it's a powerful attack tool to destroy reputations, score political points and shield one's own nefarious actions.

    The mere accusation is enough to cause ripples (as we have seen) and often that's all that's needed, because the accusation conjures up all kinds of mental images in a single second, as people are primed to react in a certain why once that accusation is made.

    This is why Corbyn's Labour is under attack at the moment. This is political in nature. There is no altruistic angle going on here. The attacks that are levelled against Labour are done so because their political opponents want to see the party weakened. People like Margaret Hodge, who produced 200 claims as "proof" of Labour's institutionalised anti Semitism problem. A large number for one person to gather. Except that only 10% of those claims had anything at all to do with Labour party members. So why is she inflating that number with claims of Anti Semitism that have nothing to do with Labour? If the was, indeed, such a voluminous problem, why would she have to pad out her package?

    And this has been the problem since the beginning of all this. There have been copious claims, but very little in the way of verifiable data to support the idea that anti Semitism is endemic within the party.


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