Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

Bluefoam · 02-07-2019 1:43pm

Nermal wrote: »

How about we let the consumer decide? Sometimes when I'm travelling I want a hotel, sometimes I want an AirBNB. Who are you to tell me I can't make that decision?

I'm not telling you what to do. The law is... same way it tells you not to speed outside a school or rape someone... The people elect the government in order to legislate. Don't blame me coz your having a hissy fit...

02-07-2019 1:44pm

A look on airbnb for listings suggests that there is very little heed being paid to these ridiculous new rules as I knew would be the case.

Bluefoam wrote: »

If you are running short term lets from a property that is not your primary reidence, then you are competing with hotels, but you have chosen not to adhere to the standards set for hotekls, thus giving your business an advantage and possibly effecting the quality and safety for guests.
.

Aside from interfering in LLs business this rule (if people actually heed it) will have a big impact on people who stay in Airbnb. They offer a lot more options than hotels do and from what I can see among friends and family most now stay in Airbnb’s in Ireland and abroad rather than hotels as it’s much more practical. A lot of people are going to be put out it Airbnb’s are cracked down on.

Graham · 02-07-2019 2:05pm

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

from what I can see among friends and family most now stay in Airbnb’s in Ireland and abroad rather than hotels as it’s much more practical.

Hence the need for legislation in many cities.

Zenify · 02-07-2019 4:04pm

Nermal wrote: »

Bluefoam wrote: »

If you are running short term lets from a property that is not your primary reidence, then you are competing with hotels, but you have chosen not to adhere to the standards set for hotekls, thus giving your business an advantage and possibly effecting the quality and safety for guests.

How about we let the consumer decide? Sometimes when I'm travelling I want a hotel, sometimes I want an AirBNB. Who are you to tell me I can't make that decision?

Many of the standards relate to things like fire safety. Consumers dont care about things like that, but when something goes wrong they say how were they allowed to run a business with such poor standards. Think about the clubs with no fire exits.

machalla · 02-07-2019 5:14pm

Zenify wrote: »

Many of the standards relate to things like fire safety. Consumers dont care about things like that, but when something goes wrong they say how were they allowed to run a business with such poor standards. Think about the clubs with no fire exits.

Do fire safety standards for short term/guest lettings differ significantly from long term letting?

Has there been new amendments added to increase the safety standards of short term lets as opposed to long term lets? I don't recall it being mentioned.

Samuel T. Cogley · 02-07-2019 5:16pm

In fairness in a long term let you get to know the building and escape routes better than if you're just in for a night or two. However I do see the fire regs argument as a bit of a non-runner.

Pkiernan · 02-07-2019 5:41pm

Does this arbitrary expansion of the RPZ zone automatically restrict Air BnB in those locales?

Kilkenny pubs will lose a lot of money so.

Claw Hammer · 02-07-2019 5:45pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

Does this arbitrary expansion of the RPZ zone automatically restrict Air BnB in those locales?

Yes. It will be a long summer.

the_syco · 02-07-2019 8:11pm

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/no-grace-period-as-airbnb-hosts-who-flout-rules-from-today-face-prison-38268582.html

New short-term letting regulations introduced today could result in those who flout the rules being fined €5,000 or jailed for six months.

Have seen violent offenders get less, if any jail time compared to this.

guideanna wrote: »

I'm not running a business, i'm renting out my property, same as i've always done. They are changing the goalposts, not me!

Well now, I doubt you're running a charity?

utmbuilder · 03-07-2019 3:05am

In fairness everyone has the complete Dublin list with GPS of airbnbs , it's going to get messy for hosts very messy and when you have assets at stake people are going to be leaned if not today soon.

03-07-2019 5:04am

utmbuilder wrote: »

In fairness everyone has the complete Dublin list with GPS of airbnbs , it's going to get messy for hosts very messy and when you have assets at stake people are going to be leaned if not today soon.

Do you think that enforcement of the legislation involves DCC checking GPS locations and sending out fines? Seriously.

Enforcement requires that 2 person teams from DCC physically have to be on site to “catch” guests in the property to prove a law has been broken. How does that work in an apartment complex? Do they stand in the hall all day or ask every single person entering the building who they are? DCC haven’t even got the personnel yet according to a newspaper article last week.

LuckyLloyd · 03-07-2019 8:22am

Dav010 wrote: »

Do you think that enforcement of the legislation involves DCC checking GPS locations and sending out fines? Seriously.

Enforcement requires that 2 person teams from DCC physically have to be on site to “catch” guests in the property to prove a law has been broken. How does that work in an apartment complex? Do they stand in the hall all day or ask every single person entering the building who they are? DCC haven’t even got the personnel yet according to a newspaper article last week.

Those neighbouring constantly short term let Apartments will report very accurately. I’m sure that will help DCC in their work.

03-07-2019 8:36am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Those neighbouring constantly short term let Apartments will report very accurately. I’m sure that will help DCC in their work.

As has been posted many times, and links provided to interviews with person in charge of enforcement for DCC, reports by neighbors are considered hearsay and not enough to secure an enforcement order. Neighbors might report, but DCC staff still have to catch the guests in the property to prove a short let exists. Do you think they are going to have a time machine to take them there at the precise time guests are entering/leaving? Or do you think 2 DCC staff are going to sit there for hours? I guarantee all Hosts will be telling guests, do not answer the doorbell.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-city-council-seeks-400-000-to-set-up-taskforce-to-crack-down-on-airbnbs-1.3708469?mode=amp

Samuel T. Cogley · 03-07-2019 8:39am

Personally if I was the various CoCos I'd just make a booking and show up.

03-07-2019 8:43am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Personally if I was the various CoCos I'd just make a booking and show up.

Brilliant, DCC pays for an illegal act. Say the property is being put on Airbnb by a tenant, DCC will have paid the tenant, but trying to prosecute the property owner who may have no knowledge of it. They can’t prosecute the tenant, and the tenant will have made a tidy profit.

Many Hosts will not let for less than 2 nights, DCC pays €600 to see if there is an illegal short term let. Anyone who uses Airbnb knows you pay the full amount in advance.

LuckyLloyd · 03-07-2019 9:26am

Dav010 wrote: »

As has been posted many times, and links provided to interviews with person in charge of enforcement for DCC, reports by neighbors are considered hearsay and not enough to secure an enforcement order. Neighbors might report, but DCC staff still have to catch the guests in the property to prove a short let exists. Do you think they are going to have a time machine to take them there at the precise time guests are entering/leaving? Or do you think 2 DCC staff are going to sit there for hours? I guarantee all Hosts will be telling guests, do not answer the doorbell.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-city-council-seeks-400-000-to-set-up-taskforce-to-crack-down-on-airbnbs-1.3708469%3fmode=amp

If they *know* - to a high degree of accuracy - which property is the problem property this just becomes a matter of political will, legislative sanction and competence. The first two are there, you’re betting against the civil servants figuring it out on the third bit.

Up to people to decide whether they roll the dice ultimately. There will be pressure to bring the first landmark case in within the next three months. Where there’s will and incentive there’s certainly a way.

But everyone is entitled to take their chances. Maybe you’ll get lucky

Graham · 03-07-2019 9:26am

Mod Warning

If you'd like to continue to discuss ways of circumventing the law, this is not the appropriate thread.

There will be no additional on thread warnings.

GalwayGaillimh · 03-07-2019 10:02am

Can CCTV from apartment complex be used to prove short term letting going on?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 03-07-2019 10:17am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If they *know* - to a high degree of accuracy - which property is the problem property this just becomes a matter of political will, legislative sanction and competence. The first two are there, you’re betting against the civil servants figuring it out on the third bit.

Up to people to decide whether they roll the dice ultimately. There will be pressure to bring the first landmark case in within the next three months. Where there’s will and incentive there’s certainly a way.

But everyone is entitled to take their chances. Maybe you’ll get lucky

Yeah, surely a few example cases would be deemed to be worth whatever the outlay is.

4ensic15 · 03-07-2019 10:20am

GalwayGaillimh wrote: »

Can CCTV from apartment complex be used to prove short term letting going on?

All tghe CCTV would show people with bags entering and leaving the entrace lobbies of apartment blocks. A prosecution case would require proof beyond reasonable doubt. Just because people are seen going into an apartment block does not mean short term letting is going on. The way child porn is prosecuted is that evidence is obtained of payment for porn and that IP address of the computer is at a particular location. Then the computer is seized. In a planning prosecution an enforcement notice has to be served on the landlord telling him to stop letting on short term. If he continues a prosecution must be brought. If the neighbours are prepared to swear that they constantly see people coing in an out with suitcases on a frequent basis, particularly if there is CCTV footage showing same and if there is evidence of advertising of a unit equivalent in specification at that address, the prosecution may well be made out.

TSQ · 03-07-2019 10:30am

Well, at least most of the ex-Airbnb units going back into short term rental will be of a high quality of decor and fit-out. Will be interesting to see how many actually come onto the domestic tenancy market. One landlord with over 20 units has expressed intention of moving to long trem letting (interviewed in Indo i think) while landlords with just one property seem to be selling up. Notice a lot of 3 and 6 month lettings offered on Daft recently ... ex Airbnb landlords?

Fan of Netflix · 03-07-2019 1:29pm

How can we report the rogue landlords now breaking the law ? Gardai or DCC planning section? A quick glance at AirBnB shows many ignoring this new law. I'm going to make it my business to report as many of these criminals lowlifes as possible. They have profited at the expense of fellow citizens too long.

And this time I hope 6 months in prison means 6 months.

03-07-2019 1:45pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

They have profited at the expense of fellow citizens too long.
.

Absolute rubbish, it is not, nor has it ever been the responsibility of property owners to provide accommodation for their fellow citizens. All property investors want profit, it is not philanthropy, without investors, there is no rental sector.

Graham · 03-07-2019 1:51pm

TSQ wrote: »

Notice a lot of 3 and 6 month lettings offered on Daft recently ... ex Airbnb landlords?

I expect there to be quite a few of that type of rental appearing over the next few weeks.

Traditionally aimed at the corporate letting market, it will be interesting to see if the demand is there to soak up the sudden additional capacity.

Fan of Netflix · 03-07-2019 1:56pm

Dav010 wrote: »

All property investors want is profit

You have unwittingly hit the nail on the head there. No care about society or the harm being done to families and young people. All about the €€€. You would fit in well with the thugs evicting people during the famine.

Thankfully the state has now made these activities illegal. I do hope dearly these rogue landlords see the inside of Mountjoy. Their vile greed is a stain on this great country.

03-07-2019 2:07pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

You have unwittingly hit the nail on the head there. No care about society or the harm being done to families and young people. All about the €€€. You would fit in well with the thugs evicting people during the famine.

Thankfully the state has now made these activities illegal. I do hope dearly these rogue landlords see the inside of Mountjoy. Their vile greed is a stain on this great country.

Nothing unwitting about it, rental is all about profit. It would be extremely naive to think otherwise.

03-07-2019 3:57pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

You have unwittingly hit the nail on the head there. No care about society or the harm being done to families and young people. All about the €€€. You would fit in well with the thugs evicting people during the famine.

Thankfully the state has now made these activities illegal. I do hope dearly these rogue landlords see the inside of Mountjoy. Their vile greed is a stain on this great country.

Why should they care? They are operating a business to make money not a charity to house people.

Nonsense like “vile greed”’is just that, nonsense. They are running a business to better their lot same as any business owner does but for some unknown reason they are treated totally different by some people like yourself.

Graham · 03-07-2019 4:01pm

Mod Note

Hop down off the old soap-boxes there please folks before somebody slips and hurts themselves.

If it's not clear from the above, dial back on the rabid/heated come-backs please.

Samuel T. Cogley · 03-07-2019 4:58pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

And this time I hope 6 months in prison means 6 months.

Not a chance.

machalla · 03-07-2019 5:04pm

6 months in prison and potentially €5,000 in fines for running a short term let property without planning permission.

0 months in prison and €0 cost for non payment of rent over a sustained period.

That seems to be quite a variation in treatment of delinquent tenants and delinquent property owners based on that.

Fan of Netflix · 03-07-2019 5:08pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Not a chance.

Let them squirm in court and take the chance. They are criminals breaking the law, they should be treated as such. Don't like it then time to sell up and stop being a rogue landlord.

3DataModem · 03-07-2019 5:09pm

machalla wrote: »

That seems to be quite a variation in treatment of delinquent tenants and delinquent property owners based on that.

If we're not careful we'll end of in a situation where neither the government nor private sector want to build enough rentable properties to keep up with demand.

Oh, wait.

Samuel T. Cogley · 03-07-2019 5:11pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Let them squirm in court and take the chance. They are criminals breaking the law, they should be treated as such. Don't like it then time to sell up and stop being a rogue landlord.

Hows that going for the rental market?

handlemaster · 03-07-2019 5:12pm

machalla wrote: »

6 months in prison and potentially €5,000 in fines for running a short term let property without planning permission.

0 months in prison and €0 cost for non payment of rent over a sustained period.

That seems to be quite a variation in treatment of delinquent tenants and delinquent property owners based on that.

Agreed. The landlord that runs her business well is against the wall when tenants dont want to pay. But rent out a property on short term lease and your in court faster than an anti landlord Irish indepedant printing press.

LuckyLloyd · 03-07-2019 5:14pm

Constantly short term letting your property means you’re no longer a landlord. You’re an unlicensed hotelier.

Fan of Netflix · 03-07-2019 5:15pm

machalla wrote: »

6 months in prison and potentially €5,000 in fines for running a short term let property without planning permission.

0 months in prison and €0 cost for non payment of rent over a sustained period.

That seems to be quite a variation in treatment of delinquent tenants and delinquent property owners based on that.

Rogue landlords have harmed this country and it's people enough. They had a good run. Even Fine Gael the landlord party have had enough of their activities. The gig is up time to enjoy their ill gotten gains and quit while their ahead. Like drug dealers, the greed of the Irish landlord will be their undoing.

03-07-2019 5:27pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Rogue landlords have harmed this country and it's people enough. They had a good run. Even Fine Gael the landlord party have had enough of their activities. The gig is up time to enjoy their ill gotten gains and quit while their ahead. Like drug dealers, the greed of the Irish landlord will be their undoing.

At the risk of feeding you, if LLs quit, in your opinion who will provide the properties to rent? Most owners who register with Airbnb do so for higher profits, but also significantly, because they no longer want to rent to tenants.

Samuel T. Cogley · 03-07-2019 5:29pm

Dav010 wrote: »

At the risk of feeding you, if LLs quit, in your opinion who will provide the properties to rent?

Professional LL's. You'll have all the choice you want. Share a kitchen with 42 people for €1500 a month or rent an apartment for €500 or more a week.

Fan of Netflix · 03-07-2019 5:29pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Hows that going for the rental market?

Eoghan Murphy has made the decision, that the AirBnB trickery is now illegal and coming to an end. I'm sure the gombeen landlords will now be looking into their next crooked scheme and how they can bend the rules.

This is why they are seen with contempt by ordinary people and the young people of Ireland. Profiting off the misery of the youth of Ireland is not something I would engage myself. It was enough that their generation had to bankrupt the country and saddle the youth with a mountain of debt. Now they must take it all until theres nothing left. Shame on them.

Samuel T. Cogley · 03-07-2019 5:31pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Eoghan Murphy has made the decision, that the AirBnB trickery is now illegal and coming to an end. I'm sure the gombeen landlords will now be looking into their next crooked scheme and how they can bend the rules.

This is why they are seen with contempt by ordinary people and the young people of Ireland. Profiting off the misery of the youth of Ireland is not something I would engage myself. It was enough that their generation had to bankrupt the country and saddle the youth with a mountain of debt. Now they must take it all until theres nothing left. Shame on them.

Why do you think so many are wanting to bend the rules given rents have never been higher?

Jamsiek · 03-07-2019 6:14pm

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

Why should they care? They are operating a business to make money not a charity to house people.

Nonsense like “vile greed”’is just that, nonsense. They are running a business to better their lot same as any business owner does but for some unknown reason they are treated totally different by some people like yourself.

This is why I support limiting and in some cases banning Airbnb particularly where housing shortages are at their worst.
We can't rely on people to act on their own initiative so sometimes it's up to the powers that be to look after the interests of the public.

marieholmfan · 03-07-2019 6:42pm

machalla wrote: »

6 months in prison and potentially €5,000 in fines for running a short term let property without planning permission.

0 months in prison and €0 cost for non payment of rent over a sustained period.

That seems to be quite a variation in treatment of delinquent tenants and delinquent property owners based on that.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

handlemaster · 03-07-2019 8:08pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

machalla wrote: »

6 months in prison and potentially €5,000 in fines for running a short term let property without planning permission.

0 months in prison and €0 cost for non payment of rent over a sustained period.

That seems to be quite a variation in treatment of delinquent tenants and delinquent property owners based on that.

Rogue landlords have harmed this country and it's people enough. They had a good run. Even Fine Gael the landlord party have had enough of their activities. The gig is up time to enjoy their ill gotten gains and quit while their ahead. Like drug dealers, the greed of the Irish landlord will be their undoing.

Doesnt make much sence. So the counter arguement is tenants are all social deliquents who damage properry and dont pay rent.

Eric Cartman · 03-07-2019 8:11pm

if anyone for one second thinks this will end in a prison sentence for anyone caught less than 3 times doing this then youre living in a fantasy world. Even then id go as far as to say that perhaps 1 person in my lifetime will go to prison for this and that will be over a continued refusal to pay the fine.

And that person will probably rent out their PPR on airbnb for the 6 months theyre inside.

TSQ · 03-07-2019 8:50pm

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Eoghan Murphy has made the decision, that the AirBnB trickery is now illegal and coming to an end. I'm sure the gombeen landlords will now be looking into their next crooked scheme and how they can bend the rules.

This is why they are seen with contempt by ordinary people and the young people of Ireland. Profiting off the misery of the youth of Ireland is not something I would engage myself. It was enough that their generation had to bankrupt the country and saddle the youth with a mountain of debt. Now they must take it all until theres nothing left. Shame on them.

You are hilarious. Obviously enjoy getting a rise out of folks. The rest of you, just chill, cant you see he is just taking the proverbial.

Gael23 · 03-07-2019 10:01pm

I’m sure unscrupulous landlords won’t be long at finding a way aro7nd the law

the_syco · 04-07-2019 9:44am

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Thankfully the state has now made these activities illegal. I do hope dearly these rogue landlords see the inside of Mountjoy. Their vile greed is a stain on this great country.

Eh, no. The government has quite happily let the LL's with the ball for all social tenants but with very little protection.

Jamsiek wrote: »

This is why I support limiting and in some cases banning Airbnb particularly where housing shortages are at their worst.
We can't rely on people to act on their own initiative so sometimes it's up to the powers that be to look after the interests of the public.

It's because of "powers" that LL's are leaving the market in their droves.

Gael23 wrote: »

I’m sure unscrupulous landlords won’t be long at finding a way aro7nd the law

Such as not letting their houses and ignoring any vacant property tax?

GGTrek · 04-07-2019 1:43pm

<SNIP>

Graham · 04-07-2019 2:17pm

Mod Note

GGTrek, there is no need to use the deliberately inflammatory/trolling labels for other posters or groups of posters whether they align politically to the left or right of you. It adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

You will get no further warnings.

the_syco · 04-07-2019 4:35pm

TSQ wrote: »

Well, at least most of the ex-Airbnb units going back into short term rental will be of a high quality of decor and fit-out.

If they've been "off" the market for X amount of years, I wonder will this then mean that they can start letting them out at whatever the funk price they want the new market price?

Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

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