Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

The_Conductor · 20-06-2019 8:43pm

Fair enough- I knew Airbnb communicated with Revenue- I wasn't aware of the extent that they did.
Thanks for clarifying.
And, no, I'm not letting property on airbnb, I've a bone to pick with a few neighbours who are though..........

LuckyLloyd · 20-06-2019 8:58pm

Already seeing housing stock hit the market recently that is definitely short term letting stock. Obvious from the photos used for sale. Good to see.

The_Conductor · 20-06-2019 9:09pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Already seeing housing stock hit the market recently that is definitely short term letting stock. Obvious from the photos used for sale. Good to see.

Thats a very short term view though.
Another way of looking at this- is that its removing short term stock from the market- which is incentivising those who are currently letting units for refugees etc- move back into the formal hotel markets- as the reduction in airbnb units pushes up overnight hotel rates.

An example of this is Hatch Hall in Dublin- which has to be vacated by the 15th of July- as its going into the hotel sector immediately (it was previously thought the residents had until next January to find alternate accommodation).

Airbnb units hitting the sale market- is simply shuffling units around- it doesn't add to our housing supply- it simply shuffles the decks and someone somewhere else ends up worse off- and someone (presumably the new purchaser) is better off..........

Chasing airbnb- when the obvious issue is a lack of new social and affordable housing units- is simply playing to the media. We need more social and affordable housing units- they don't have to be plush units in high demand areas- but we need large volumes of them- and at a constant delivery rate going forwards, we don't need distractions- we need to get delivering these units. Chasing airbnb- is a distraction.

I'm saying all of this- to play devil's advocate- I don't have a vested interest in either side of the equation.

is_that_so · 20-06-2019 10:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If one has nothing to hide and are carrying on their business legally and above board, one has nothing to hide.

True enough but still no fun.

is_that_so · 20-06-2019 10:19pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Thats a very short term view though.
Another way of looking at this- is that its removing short term stock from the market- which is incentivising those who are currently letting units for refugees etc- move back into the formal hotel markets- as the reduction in airbnb units pushes up overnight hotel rates.

An example of this is Hatch Hall in Dublin- which has to be vacated by the 15th of July- as its going into the hotel sector immediately (it was previously thought the residents had until next January to find alternate accommodation).

Airbnb units hitting the sale market- is simply shuffling units around- it doesn't add to our housing supply- it simply shuffles the decks and someone somewhere else ends up worse off- and someone (presumably the new purchaser) is better off..........

Chasing airbnb- when the obvious issue is a lack of new social and affordable housing units- is simply playing to the media. We need more social and affordable housing units- they don't have to be plush units in high demand areas- but we need large volumes of them- and at a constant delivery rate going forwards, we don't need distractions- we need to get delivering these units. Chasing airbnb- is a distraction.

I'm saying all of this- to play devil's advocate- I don't have a vested interest in either side of the equation.

It's really just "Whose turn is it to get hit by Revenue?" time. There may or may not be non-compliance. They'll do their review and move on to other targets. It's not politics even if some people couch it like that. Politics will be about the very challenging enforcement of the new rules.

guideanna · 01-07-2019 9:46am

Maybe not the correct forum so please move if applicable.

New law kicks in today restricting short term lettings on rental properties.
I feel like this law has been rushed through, government trying to put a band aid on the housing shortage by kicking the landlords yet again in the nuts because god forbid they'd actually make a few quid out of these propertied that most of them were "stuck" with during the recession, in negative equity, topping up mortgages and no one stepping in to help them then or now"
If i own a property and i decide i want to rent it to Mary one week and Tom the next week, who the hell is anyone to tell me otherwise!

The irish examiner said
"Landlords with properties in rent pressure zones will be required to register with their local council if they are renting out rooms or the entire property for less than 90 days per year. If they are doing so for more than 90 days, they will be required to apply for planning permission to do so."
PLANNING PERMISSION.....excuse me WHAT!

Taken from rte news
" It's hoped that introducing the regulations will drive more properties back into the long term rental market and, in turn, relieve some of the pressures on the rental market."
So basically the government is hanging the landlords out yet again!
Good luck to them trying to enforce this there's literally hundreds of properties onair b&b alone for Dublin.

Phileas Frog · 01-07-2019 10:15am

guideanna wrote: »

I feel like this law has been rushed through, government trying to put a band aid on the housing shortage by kicking the landlords yet again in the nuts because god forbid they'd actually make a few quid out of these propertied that most of them were "stuck" with during the recession, in negative equity, topping up mortgages and no one stepping in to help them then or now"

The new law wasn't enacted yesterday you know? Crawl out from under that rock you live under.

L1011 · 01-07-2019 10:29am

Merged to megathread

Bluefoam · 01-07-2019 10:36am

guideanna wrote: »

PLANNING PERMISSION.....excuse me WHAT!

You've always needed planning permission to change the use of a property... in this case from residential, to hotel or guesthouse. If you want to run a business you need to follow basic law. The planning rules have been in place for decades, the new legislation just helps for them to be managed more effectiovely.

As for those who feel that they can do what they wish with their homes... there are seperate rules applying to those who wish to subsidise their income by short leasing a room or their entire property, once it is their primary residence.

guideanna · 01-07-2019 11:21am

I haven't changed the I haven't changed the use of the property at all. The duration of the renting but it's certainly not run as a hotel or guesthouse.

This is the government moving the goal posts for landlords.
No help during the recession, and now trying to hit them when they know the rents are high and they are making some profits.
And when i say some, over the last 15 years i'd still be in minus figures over what i've paid out to keep the property.
I'd be considering selling now rather than return to the long term rental market.

01-07-2019 11:23am

guideanna wrote: »

I haven't changed the I haven't changed the use of the property at all. The duration of the renting but it's certainly not run as a hotel or guesthouse.

This is the government moving the goal posts for landlords.
No help during the recession, and now trying to hit them when they know the rents are high and they are making some profits.
And when i say some, over the last 15 years i'd still be in minus figures over what i've paid out to keep the property.
I'd be considering selling now rather than return to the long term rental market.

If one is running a business from the premises you have to have the proper planning permission a pay rates.

Bluefoam · 01-07-2019 11:32am

guideanna wrote: »

I haven't changed the I haven't changed the use of the property at all. The duration of the renting but it's certainly not run as a hotel or guesthouse.

This is the government moving the goal posts for landlords.

If you are running short term lets from a property that is not your primary reidence, then you are competing with hotels, but you have chosen not to adhere to the standards set for hotekls, thus giving your business an advantage and possibly effecting the quality and safety for guests.

As for the change of use... If the house/apartment/dwelling was built as a house/home under planning as a residential property & you are now using it as a business, then you absolutely 100% have changed the use under planning.

Trying to claim that because you limit you business from longer term contracts doesn't mean you aren't running a hotel is absolute bollox and you are just acting the sleeveen. The law says you are running a business, so deal with it.

The poor me attitude from landlords is sad... Either run they should run their business professionally, or if they are unable to, then they probably shouldn't be in the business to begin with. Theres too many landlords running unprofessional services and causing a negative impact on the industry... Only themselves to blame.

CoffeeBean2 · 01-07-2019 1:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If one is running a business from the premises you have to have the proper planning permission a pay rates.

Except in the case where

- you are a B&B with four or less bedrooms,
- you rent for 14 days or more at a time, less is clearly breaking the law.
- it is your PPR

Obviously renting out a PPR for up to 90 days a year is completely different then renting out a non-PPR for up to 90 days a year when it comes to planning laws!! Clearly that difference is covered in the planning laws people keep mentioning here. Oh wait, no it's not! How did that happen?

Planning is a typical dead cat strategy, or a reverse Chewbacca defense if you will.

davindub · 01-07-2019 3:14pm

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

If one is running a business from the premises you have to have the proper planning permission a pay rates.

Except in the case where

- you are a B&B with four or less bedrooms,
- you rent for 14 days or more at a time, less is clearly breaking the law.
- it is your PPR

Obviously renting out a PPR for up to 90 days a year is completely different then renting out a non-PPR for up to 90 days a year when it comes to planning laws!! Clearly that difference is covered in the planning laws people keep mentioning here. Oh wait, no it's not! How did that happen?

Planning is a typical dead cat strategy, or a reverse Chewbacca defense if you will.

If you read the planning permission attached to a property, it might make things clearer for you.

CoffeeBean2 · 01-07-2019 4:16pm

davindub wrote: »

If you read the planning permission attached to a property, it might make things clearer for you.

I would suggest you do the same and point out where exactly does says that you can / can not rent out a house for a period of over / under 14 days for a maximum of 90 days a year (but only if it's your PPR)?

As I said, dead cat strategy.

xckjoo · 01-07-2019 4:25pm

guideanna wrote: »

I haven't changed the I haven't changed the use of the property at all. The duration of the renting but it's certainly not run as a hotel or guesthouse.

This is the government moving the goal posts for landlords.
No help during the recession, and now trying to hit them when they know the rents are high and they are making some profits.
And when i say some, over the last 15 years i'd still be in minus figures over what i've paid out to keep the property.
I'd be considering selling now rather than return to the long term rental market.

That'll help the housing supply so sounds like the law is doing what it's supposed to.

Zenify · 01-07-2019 4:28pm

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

davindub wrote: »

If you read the planning permission attached to a property, it might make things clearer for you.

I would suggest you do the same and point out where exactly does says that you can / can not rent out a house for a period of over / under 14 days for a maximum of 90 days a year (but only if it's your PPR)?

As I said, dead cat strategy.

That's why they brought this in. To help people understand exactly what is allowed in a building that doesnt have planning permission for tourist accommodation.

With the law I would always recommend to err on the side of caution. I honestly think people have some neck complaining about this. A residential house cannot be turned into a pub, a chipper or a B&B without permission, licence etc.

xckjoo · 01-07-2019 4:34pm

Dav010 wrote: »

I can’t read the article as it is a subscription piece, but Revenue automatically get all income information from Airbnb on host earnings, there are no illicit/cash payments through this platform. You probably could not find a more Revenue compliant business model. Anyone who is a host can easily print off the income statement at the end of each year, this is the same one Airbnb sends to Revenue and that is done whether the host likes it or not. So what will an audit of Airbnb hosts show that they don’t already know?

I've heard of people who organise off-the-books bookings for people once they meet them personally. Maybe it's to catch things like them

CoffeeBean2 · 01-07-2019 5:05pm

Zenify wrote: »

That's why they brought this in. To help people understand exactly what is allowed in a building that doesnt have planning permission for tourist accommodation.

You mean to say that you agree with me and that this was not a planning issue like posters keep saying it was before today? Otherwise PPR would not be able to rent out for 90 days a year.

Zenify wrote: »

A residential house cannot be turned into a pub, a chipper or a B&B without permission, licence etc.

You can turn it into a pub, you just can't charge a per pint price, this was done in Donegal. You also do *NOT* need planning permission or change of use permission to open a B&B as long as you have four or less units!

davindub · 01-07-2019 5:08pm

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

I would suggest you do the same and point out where exactly does says that you can / can not rent out a house for a period of over / under 14 days for a maximum of 90 days a year (but only if it's your PPR)?

As I said, dead cat strategy.

The most important thing is that the "permission" attached will use a particular phrase such as "dwelling", "holiday accommodation", etc. Conversely, a "holiday accommodation" cannot be used for a full time residence.

I won't explain this in detail, but if you see the word "dwelling" and the council who issued the permission defines "dwelling" as a permanent residence, then once it is being used as a permanent residence, you can avail of the B&B exemption or the short term letting exemption contained in the legislation. PS permanent residence generally means someone resides there.

The 14 days mentioned actually changes the normal accepted meaning of resides quite a bit, so that's actually an improvement for those operating short term lets.

Short term holiday accommodation has it's own permission type.

davindub · 01-07-2019 5:12pm

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

You also do *NOT* need planning permission or change of use permission to open a B&B as long as you have four or less units!

This is true, but it must still be used as a dwelling (someone must reside there). I have seen permissions granted where an B&B is operating and they sometimes restrict the use of new extensions for family use only, etc.

Don't be confusing these exemptions with general permissions, the original permission (use) must be also complied with and doesn't change.

CoffeeBean2 · 01-07-2019 5:19pm

davindub wrote: »

The 14 days mentioned actually changes the normal accepted meaning of resides quite a bit, so that's actually an improvement for those operating short term lets.

If 14 days now mean that someone resided in a location, does that also mean that an owner could 'reside' in their second property for just over 14 days, claim it to be their new PPR, and then avail of the 90 days short term letting allowed to PPR?

Fian · 01-07-2019 6:15pm

i had posted this in another thread at some stage but i don't think it has been posted in this thread yet. In any case here are the regulations:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2019/si/235/made/en/print

davindub · 01-07-2019 6:16pm

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

If 14 days now mean that someone resided in a location, does that also mean that an owner could 'reside' in their second property for just over 14 days, claim it to be their new PPR, and then avail of the 90 days short term letting allowed to PPR?

No, the PPR is a different meaning than dwelling and the general meaning of PPR is "one main" residence, it is likely to mean the nominated PPR (as held by Revenue) of the landlord. There are reporting issues to the local council as well. But the most compelling reason not to switch PPR for this reason, is that even if possible, would be the loss of the PPR exemption from CGT.

The regs are here http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2019/si/235/made/en/pdf, you can see a few qualifying terms regarding compliance with the original planning permission.

beejee · 01-07-2019 6:16pm

Another "race to the bottom", hyper-capitalist, tech company in the firing line (years late)

"disrupter" is code word for making a complete disaster of things and then riding off into the sunset with bags of money.

These tech "ideas" need to be nuked from orbit before more people become trapped and reliant on them.

Fian · 01-07-2019 6:20pm

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

If 14 days now mean that someone resided in a location, does that also mean that an owner could 'reside' in their second property for just over 14 days, claim it to be their new PPR, and then avail of the 90 days short term letting allowed to PPR?

PPR = Principal private residence. If they move in on a permanent basis they could claim it was their PPR immediately, no need to wait 14 days. If they move in intending to remain for 14 days only obviously it would not be their PPR. It would be their residence for those 14 days but not their "principal" residence.

They would of course then lose the CGT PPR on their previous PPR down the line if they sold it. They could only claim PPR relief for the periods which it was their PPR + the year of sale.

01-07-2019 6:24pm

xckjoo wrote: »

I've heard of people who organise off-the-books bookings for people once they meet them personally. Maybe it's to catch things like them

There is no “off the books” with Airbnb. The only way to book a rental is by paying for it with your card or by PayPal. That is why this type of legislation may well result in more cash bookings through other platforms such as Facebook/booking.com. The benefit of Airbnb for Revenue is that records of all payments automatically go to Revenue.

As has been posted many times, the legislation is pointless and toothless unless there is enforcement. DCC confirmed last week that NO additional staff had been employed nor assigned prior to this law coming into effect.

L1011 · 01-07-2019 6:36pm

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

If 14 days now mean that someone resided in a location, does that also mean that an owner could 'reside' in their second property for just over 14 days, claim it to be their new PPR, and then avail of the 90 days short term letting allowed to PPR?

PPR flipping like that is going to come back and bite you hard when selling the properties. Full CGT on everything sound fun?

Zenify · 01-07-2019 6:54pm

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

You can turn it into a pub, you just can't charge a per pint price, this was done in Donegal. You also do *NOT* need planning permission or change of use permission to open a B&B as long as you have four or less units!

You may be able to do it with a roundabout of the law but I dont think it is right. I wouldn't buy a house in the middle of a residential area and feel like I am entitled to turn it into a pub just because I own it. Then complaining when the law is made more clear about not being allowed to do it.

I was quoting B&B in my post referring to the current short term let rules.

drunkmonkey · 01-07-2019 8:16pm

Does this only apply to AirBnb, booking.com etc?

As in if you have a property rental company looking after your holiday home under contract you don't fall foul of these new rules. They don't advertise your home on these platforms.

Graham · 01-07-2019 8:20pm

It's the type of letting that matters, not the advertising venue/platform.

drunkmonkey · 01-07-2019 8:48pm

Holiday rental beside the sea side looked after by a holiday home rental company. The estate was built as holiday homes.

L1011 · 01-07-2019 10:02pm

That may have appropriate planning already particularly if built for tax reliefs back in the day. Dig up the planning file

drunkmonkey · 01-07-2019 10:31pm

At the top of the notices there's a paragraph "this property is subject to the provisions prohibiting letting, subletting or subdivision specified in section 12", and something about section 45, that whole paragraph is cancelled with a line, dated and reference on it.

Graham · 01-07-2019 10:33pm

In your case drunkmonkey, I'd be booking a quick chat with a solicitor to confirm on way or another.

drunkmonkey · 01-07-2019 10:48pm

Looks promising based on the strikeout.

Bluefoam · 02-07-2019 9:12am

Holiday home probably refers to a second residential property/secondary home & probably not intended for the short term rental or hotel market...

Hence:

"this property is subject to the provisions prohibiting letting, subletting or subdivision specified in section 12"

Just a guess... If you plan to let it out to short term rentals, you should probaly engage your solicitor and a good architect to advise you on the planning & potentoial to apply to change it if necessary.

drunkmonkey · 02-07-2019 10:17am

That section about letting is noted as cancelled with a big line through it.
I'll get it checked out but I'd assume it being cancelled means it's not subject to the regulation sepecifed. The estate is mainly holiday homes but some are resedential. It was built as a holiday home on day one. Hopefully it shouldn't need to get planning as the original use isn't changing.

Graham · 02-07-2019 10:20am

Is the property in an RPZ?

drunkmonkey · 02-07-2019 10:24am

No not in a pressure zone.

xckjoo · 02-07-2019 10:42am

Dav010 wrote: »

There is no “off the books” with Airbnb. The only way to book a rental is by paying for it with your card or by PayPal. That is why this type of legislation may well result in more cash bookings through other platforms such as Facebook/booking.com. The benefit of Airbnb for Revenue is that records of all payments automatically go to Revenue.

As has been posted many times, the legislation is pointless and toothless unless there is enforcement. DCC confirmed last week that NO additional staff had been employed nor assigned prior to this law coming into effect.

I meant situations like you book once through AirBnB and the owner tells you to contact them directly if you ever need to stay again. Cash in hand, no AirBnB involved after the first stay. I've also heard of people being told to cancel the AirBnB booking and they'd do it for cheaper, but that might not be possible anymore.

Graham · 02-07-2019 10:49am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

No not in a pressure zone.

Go and read the new rules. Your local CoCo may have guidelines.

Here are the ones from DCC

Summary of the new regulations and what they mean.
Background.
The Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government has introduced new Regulations which allow for the use of a “house” for the purposes of Short Term Letting, in a rent pressure zone, in restricted circumstances provided statutory notifications are sent to the relevant Local Authority.
http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-planning/new-short-term-letting-regulations-planning-and-development-amendment

Emphasis added

My understanding is the regulations were tailored so as not to interfere with traditional holiday letting areas. Get independent, qualified legal advice.

Nermal · 02-07-2019 10:52am

Bluefoam wrote: »

If you are running short term lets from a property that is not your primary reidence, then you are competing with hotels, but you have chosen not to adhere to the standards set for hotekls, thus giving your business an advantage and possibly effecting the quality and safety for guests.

How about we let the consumer decide? Sometimes when I'm travelling I want a hotel, sometimes I want an AirBNB. Who are you to tell me I can't make that decision?

TSQ · 02-07-2019 10:53am

xckjoo wrote: »

I meant situations like you book once through AirBnB and the owner tells you to contact them directly if you ever need to stay again. Cash in hand, no AirBnB involved after the first stay. I've also heard of people being told to cancel the AirBnB booking and they'd do it for cheaper, but that might not be possible anymore.

I cant imagine there would be enough repeat business from tourists to make this viable. I mean, most tourists “do” Dublin once and then go somewhere else the following year. Different if you have a rural or beach property where families will spend a couple of weeks of the school hols, but none of the rent pressure zones most affected by the new rules fall into this category.

Graham · 02-07-2019 10:54am

Nermal wrote: »

How about we let the consumer decide? Sometimes when I'm travelling I want a hotel, sometimes I want an AirBNB. Who are you to tell me I can't make that decision?

The legislation has restricted that decision for you.

theguzman · 02-07-2019 11:16am

I own a house which is outside of a Rent Pressure Zone, I am planning to list it on airbnb shortly. What if any ramifications would this have for me?

02-07-2019 11:29am

xckjoo wrote: »

I meant situations like you book once through AirBnB and the owner tells you to contact them directly if you ever need to stay again. Cash in hand, no AirBnB involved after the first stay. I've also heard of people being told to cancel the AirBnB booking and they'd do it for cheaper, but that might not be possible anymore.

Airbnb only provide insurance when booked through the site, my additional “holiday let” insurance is also specific to Airbnb lettings only. A cash booking would leave me exposed both to full cost of any damage plus no public liability cover if anything happened to the guest. I’ve been on Airbnb for 2 years, extremely rear to have repeat business, mostly tourists coming for once off visits.

Is this a friend of a friend of your third cousin twice removed told you what you heard?

guideanna · 02-07-2019 12:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If one is running a business from the premises you have to have the proper planning permission a pay rates.

I'm not running a business, i'm renting out my property, same as i've always done. They are changing the goalposts, not me!

Bluefoam · 02-07-2019 12:56pm

guideanna wrote: »

I'm not running a business, i'm renting out my property, same as i've always done. They are changing the goalposts, not me!

You've always been running a business, just not been honest or upfront about it. Now they have clarified legistlation so that it is easier to manage people like you...

Graham · 02-07-2019 1:01pm

guideanna wrote: »

I'm not running a business, i'm renting out my property, same as i've always done. They are changing the goalposts, not me!

Change of use from residential to short term letting was always likely to be considered a change of use/intensification of use and therefore subject to planning.

Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

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