Fine

Fastidious · 02-07-2019 10:58am #1

This whole kids go free thing is load of crap

Today at the train station the 2 validators were broken and if I were to go to the other side I would have missed the train.. I explained the situation to the inspector and besides kids travel free. I showed him my leap card and yet he still decides to issue me with a fine.

Can anyone advise on the legality of asking a 16 year old their address?
The station I departed from was unmanned so no support was available from staff, would this be a valid excuse? Seems fairly likely an appeal would succeed?

Xterminator · 02-07-2019 12:48pm

yet he still decides to issue me with a fine.

this is quite clearly nothing to do with the kids travel free issue.

there were working validators on the platform, but you didn't use them - fine is valid.

Can anyone advise on the legality of asking a 16 year old their address?

specific bylaws for public transport ireland allow this. your really clutching at straws.

58 (a) Any person who is reasonably suspected by an authorised person of contravening or attempting to contravene these Bye-Laws shall upon being requested so to do give his name and address to an authorized person who is an inspector, driver or conductor in uniform or who produces evidence of identity.

Fastidious · 02-07-2019 1:01pm

Xterminator wrote: »

this is quite clearly nothing to do with the kids travel free issue.

there were working validators on the platform, but you didn't use them - fine is valid.

[/I]

Does Irish rail not have an obligation to ensure all validators are in operation. Due to your inability to read you misunderstood my complaint. My issue is that none of the validators were working my side. To tag on I would've had to make the long journey over the bridge thus leaving me stranded for an hour. Irish rail offered no support services for this no signs nothing. I think my complaint is valid and will succeed.

GBX · 02-07-2019 1:06pm

Fastidious wrote: »

Does Irish rail not have an obligation to ensure all validators are in operation. Due to your inability to read you misunderstood my complaint. My issue is that none of the validators were working my side. To tag on I would've had to make the long journey over the bridge thus leaving me stranded for an hour. Irish rail offered no support services for this no signs nothing. I think my complaint is valid and will succeed.

There was an option to validate. You didnt use it. The onus is on you to validate the ticket even if it means going to the other side to do so. You didnt want to miss the train so took a chance so have to now pay the fine.

gwalk · 02-07-2019 1:12pm

mega entitled school child reckons hes in the right... shock

the reality of it is you chose not to validate your ticket, you were correctly issued a fine

Fastidious · 02-07-2019 1:17pm

gwalk wrote: »

mega entitled school child reckons hes in the right... shock

the reality of it is you chose not to validate your ticket, you were correctly issued a fine

Irish rail also chose not to rectify the issue that was flaged hours before this happened.

gwalk · 02-07-2019 1:18pm

Fastidious wrote: »

Irish rail also chose not to rectify the issue that was flaged hours before this happened.

do you know this was flagged?

Fastidious · 02-07-2019 1:18pm

GBX wrote: »

There was an option to validate. You didnt use it. The onus is on you to validate the ticket even if it means going to the other side to do so. You didnt want to miss the train so took a chance so have to now pay the fine.

You assume everyone is in a position to walk over that bridge with absolute 0 regard for those with mobility problems.

Fastidious · 02-07-2019 1:19pm

gwalk wrote: »

do you know this was flagged?

Yes reported on twitter

gwalk · 02-07-2019 1:22pm

Fastidious wrote: »

gwalk wrote: »

do you know this was flagged?

Yes reported on twitter

Why didnt you leave yourself enough time to tag on then? Seeing as how you were aware of such issue?

Perhaps the maintenance personnel were on their way to fix it

GBX · 02-07-2019 3:14pm

Fastidious wrote: »

You assume everyone is in a position to walk over that bridge with absolute 0 regard for those with mobility problems.

Reasonable assumption in my opinion as you never mentioned once about having mobility issues.
Even if you do, you still needed to validate your ticket based on what you have said in that you tried. You were aware of validator issues before hand but didn’t leave enough time to get to the station and validate the ticket on either side if needs be. When did you contact them on Twitter? Before or after getting fined?

As for "that bridge" I dont know the bridge. You are now assuming everyone on here knows the bridge in question and that only one side of the station has working validators.

Appeal if you feel wronged. But the inspector was only doing his job.

GBX · 02-07-2019 3:32pm

"Kids Go Free" "How does it work?
Simply use your Child Leap Card as normal and you won’t be charged. Any Child Leap Card (5-15 or 16-18) can be used to get free travel from Monday 1st July until Sunday 28th July (inclusive) provided it has at least 1 cent Travel Credit.

You didnt use your leap card as normal as you didnt validate it. https://about.leapcard.ie/kids-go-free

L1011 · 02-07-2019 5:00pm

Username and commitment to using the Leap card properly do not match I see

The trip is only free with a validated Leap card. Irish Rail are likely being paid by the NTA for the trip, they won't get anything unless you're tagged in.

devnull · 02-07-2019 7:25pm

Fastidious wrote: »

Today at the train station the 2 validators were broken and if I were to go to the other side I would have missed the train.. I explained the situation to the inspector and besides kids travel free. I showed him my leap card and yet he still decides to issue me with a fine.

Can anyone advise on the legality of asking a 16 year old their address?
The station I departed from was unmanned so no support was available from staff, would this be a valid excuse? Seems fairly likely an appeal would succeed?

You must have a valid ticket before boarding the train

However, a few questions:
1) What station did you board at?
2) Does your Leap Card have a photo on it?

end of the road · 02-07-2019 9:33pm

Xterminator wrote: »

this is quite clearly nothing to do with the kids travel free issue.

there were working validators on the platform, but you didn't use them - fine is valid.

specific bylaws for public transport ireland allow this. your really clutching at straws.

58 (a) Any person who is reasonably suspected by an authorised person of contravening or attempting to contravene these Bye-Laws shall upon being requested so to do give his name and address to an authorized person who is an inspector, driver or conductor in uniform or who produces evidence of identity.

they are not clutching at straws as they are making a query.

Fastidious · 02-07-2019 11:46pm

gwalk wrote: »

Why didnt you leave yourself enough time to tag on then? Seeing as how you were aware of such issue?

Perhaps the maintenance personnel were on their way to fix it

No, I saw this on twitter after having been issued with a fpn.
Firstly there is no lift at the station only ramps and that is a major annoyance for those that need to cross over. There is a reason some get dropped the other side of the station, with the assumption that at least one of the validators are working. It would be very unreasonable for me to be required to effectively stalk their twitter page for updates regarding validators malfunctioning.
Either way not paying it gonna appeal and worst comes to worse any fair judge would side with me on this.
Convinced all of you work for Irish rail or something. If there is no reasonable way to tap on, it should be free. Even Bus Eireann get this right

02-07-2019 11:54pm

Fastidious wrote: »

No, I saw this on twitter after having been issued with a fpn.
Firstly there is no lift at the station only ramps and that is a major annoyance for those that need to cross over. There is a reason some get dropped the other side of the station, with the assumption that at least one of the validators are working. It would be very unreasonable for me to be required to effectively stalk their twitter page for updates regarding validators malfunctioning.
Either way not paying it gonna appeal and worst comes to worse any fair judge would side with me on this.
Convinced all of you work for Irish rail or something. If there is no reasonable way to tap on, it should be free. Even Bus Eireann get this right

Not at all, just everyone here is familiar with fines and how the process works

Just do a quick search for the same issue and you'll find hundreds of threads from down through the years.

An IR fine is next to impossible to get out of paying once issued

Sinus pain · 02-07-2019 11:58pm

Show the judge the tweet- a picture of the bridge and prove your mobility issues - you shouldn’t have a problem then.

03-07-2019 12:10am

Sinus pain wrote: »

Show the judge the tweet- a picture of the bridge and prove your mobility issues - you shouldn’t have a problem then.

I'm not sure Op has mobility issues, he hasn't claimed to anyway

Stephen15 · 03-07-2019 12:13am

Fastidious wrote: »

Today at the train station the 2 validators were broken and if I were to go to the other side I would have missed the train.. I explained the situation to the inspector and besides kids travel free. I showed him my leap card and yet he still decides to issue me with a fine.

The kids go free for July is a scheme paid for by the NTA who pay IE, BE and DB the same amount regardless if there is a kids go free scheme or not. In other words if you don't scan IE don't get paid by the NTA for allowing you travel FOC hence why you must scan. The kids go free scheme is irrelevant in this scenario.

Fastidious · 03-07-2019 12:14am

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not sure Op has mobility issues, he hasn't claimed to anyway

Yes fourtunately not but that's besides the point. I think this will strengthen my case.

Fastidious · 03-07-2019 12:16am

Stephen15 wrote: »

The kids go free for July is a scheme paid for by the NTA who pay IE, BE and DB the same amount regardless if there is a kids go free scheme or not. In other words if you don't scan IE don't get paid by the NTA for allowing you travel FOC hence why you must scan. The kids go free scheme is irrelevant in this scenario.

Yes ok but for a scheme that purports to encourage travel, cases like mine discourage young people to use public transport.

XPS_Zero · 03-07-2019 12:18am

Legally, the question is did you have the opportunity to validate the ticket: you did.

Why you did not was a matter of convenience not inability, this is the thing.

For many many MANY years going back to primary school I've heard so many convos with inspectors on the train and people would say "oh i was running for the train I would have missed it!". ...right but the way they look at it is your schedule is not IE's responsibility it's yours. It's our job to get to the station in plenty of time in case this kinda stuff happens. It may be the most used excuse in the entire cannon in fact, I've seen it on all the fine threads set up here too.

I would also advise that winning a battle with them is HARD. I was in the right 1000% with a luas fine and it took me weeks of battling letter after letter and forcing them to check cctv footage to let the thing go, I had to convince them I'd go to court because there was no intent to defraud them of fare in my situation.

I guess that's why you feel wronged, because you had no intent to defraud either, but you also did break the rules, you had a chance to validate and you didn't.

The mobility/disability thing does not work with them either btw. I've a free travel card (not for much longer though) due to two life threatening conditions and I was told I HAVE to validate the card each time I go through so when the inspector puts his machine on the card he can see it's current and live (the expiry on the front is the CARD expiry not the travel entitlements expiry). I was also told if I'm going outside the SHZ I have to go to the office and get an actual physical ticket, and though most would let it go, some would / could issue a fine.
The guys in the Connolly desk know my face well now, and so one day I didn't put the card up on the desk one day when ordering a ticket, I got a blank stare and a "got your card?" and that's when they know me. Thems the rules.

I know it feels like a stupid technicality but you have to understand the danger is always setting a precedent someone can use to dodge the fare. Imagine if they allowed the "I was late for work and running for the train" excuse, how many more people would dodge their fare and use that if RPU came upon them?

Chock it up to a lesson in life we've all had to learn: you gotta follow the rules, even the ones you don't like or agree with.
Another key lesson I'll pass on mate: never rely on CIE, always get there 5 minutes earlier as spillover time just in case.

Stephen15 · 03-07-2019 12:24am

Fastidious wrote: »

Yes ok but for a scheme that purports to encourage travel, cases like mine discourage young people to use public transport.

You need to read the terms and conditions everything has terms and conditions. Not scanning your Leap even when there is a free travel scheme for children is the same to IE as not paying your fare when fares are being charged to children either way it's lost revenue.

Charles Babbage · 03-07-2019 12:33am

The NTA should require validators on the train or an obligation to keep those on the platform working

Bigmac1euro · 03-07-2019 12:50am

Going to the other side of the platform to validate a ticket is a load of bollox. Nobody should have to do this, they should have validators on the train, the whole system is a load of ****e.
This country is so backward when it comes to even the simplest things. I had a similar issue 1 night leaving leixlip to go to Connolly and if I missed the train I was sleeping in the train station so I chose not to validate. I explained at the other end and they let me pay then. You shouldn’t be able to get a fine if the validators don’t work and the guy issuing the fine should be able to check this.
I took a photo of them when it happened with me to show an inspector had he got on,
Failing this he was getting a false name and address.

Stephen15 · 03-07-2019 1:20am

I agree that that IE should be making sure the validator is working btw. On the continent ticket inspectors are generally much more common and very don't take any nonsense especially when it ocome to invalidated tickets but also on the continent an operator would generally be making sure all validators are working.

Bigmac1euro · 03-07-2019 1:24am

Stephen15 wrote: »

I agree that that IE should be making sure the validator is working btw. On the continent ticket inspectors are generally much more common and very don't take any nonsense especially when it ocome to invalidated tickets but also on the continent an operator would generally be making sure all validators are working.

Also in a lot of places the validators are on the trains.

delly · 03-07-2019 1:29am

While it's a pain in the ass, them's the rules. The same applies to pay and display car parking spots. If you find that the ticket machine on the street is broken, you don't just leave your car and say, sure I'm grand, the machine is at fault. You have to find the next nearest machine and use that.

dartboardio · 03-07-2019 3:31am

You seem to have form for blaming others for things you are responsible for.

From your parents putting the wrong date on your passport application, and you blaming the passport office... To this.

Gold!

devnull · 03-07-2019 7:13am

I will ask again.

What station did you board at with no lifts?
Did your Leap card have your picture on it?

GBX · 03-07-2019 9:04am

dartboardio wrote: »

You seem to have form for blaming others for things you are responsible for.

From your parents putting the wrong date on your passport application, and you blaming the passport office... To this.

Gold!

Saw that .. The working validator must have been in another country for him not to be able to go to the other side

Fastidious · 04-07-2019 2:09am

dartboardio wrote: »

You seem to have form for blaming others for things you are responsible for.

Gold!

Yes yes cause I broke the validators . In no other country would you be expected to go to another platform to tag on funny thing is you'd be the 1st one to cry here were u to be issued with a fine. My appeal will succeed jokes on you

dartboardio · 04-07-2019 3:18am

Fastidious wrote: »

Yes yes cause I broke the validators . In no other country would you be expected to go to another platform to tag on funny thing is you'd be the 1st one to cry here were u to be issued with a fine. My appeal will succeed jokes on you

Brilliant, 'jokes on you'

Love it!

Disclaimer: why on earth would I give a hoot if your appeal 'succeeds' or not

gwalk · 04-07-2019 7:44am

Cant wait for the school holidays to end

daheff · 04-07-2019 7:50am

i always wonder why the trains dont have a validator on them too. would solve these problems.

maybe add a surcharge to discourage this as people's first point of validation & not slow down people getting on

leitrim4life · 04-07-2019 7:56am

Why would anyone give their real name and address to Inspector?

gwalk · 04-07-2019 7:56am

daheff wrote: »

i always wonder why the trains dont have a validator on them too. would solve these problems.

maybe add a surcharge to discourage this as people's first point of validation & not slow down people getting on

In the UK its more expensive to buy a ticket on the train rather than beforehand, something similar to that here would be a good idea.

but then people would cry that they couldnt avail of the cheaper fair in the case of broken validators.

devnull · 04-07-2019 9:08am

daheff wrote: »

i always wonder why the trains dont have a validator on them too. would solve these problems.
/QUOTE]

Because this would encourage a type of non paymentcalled 'Conditional Validation evasion' where people only validate when they see an inspector rather than all of the time and also will argue that the validators don't work and that argument would be much easier to win than validators at stations which are reporting to a back office if they were online or not.

Fastidious · 04-07-2019 10:42am

dartboardio wrote: »

Brilliant, 'jokes on you'

Love it!

Disclaimer: why on earth would I give a hoot if your appeal 'succeeds' or not

Hm says the one who after abusing me on one thread follows me to this thread gee sad.

Fastidious · 04-07-2019 10:43am

leitrim4life wrote: »

Why would anyone give their real name and address to Inspector?

I was thinking that but for fear of cctv and all that. Plus as a regular user I think I'd risk a greater penalty if I didn't.

GBX · 04-07-2019 10:58am

Your reasoning doesn't make sense - you fear a greater penalty for this but also expect somebody to alter a passport application form that you and/or your parent incorrectly filled out and have them risk serious penalty/possibility of losing their job. Make your mind up.

:rolleyes:

I get you are a teen and dislike the "system" as you got caught without a validated ticket. Pay the fine and move on.

Fastidious · 04-07-2019 11:23am

GBX wrote: »

Your reasoning doesn't make sense - you fear a greater penalty for this but also expect somebody to alter a passport application form that you and/or your parent incorrectly filled out and have them risk serious penalty/possibility of losing their job. Make your mind up. :rolleyes:

I get you are a teen and dislike the "system" as you got caught without a validated ticket. Pay the fine and move on.

I fail to see the correlation. I do see much sense in those passport workers being held accountable for their shortcomings. Whether or not this warrants a redundancy is truly up to their boss to decide. When a web chat advisor falsey assures you all is in order something has to be done.
I think anyone would dislike a system that requires you to walk in excess of 5 mins to validate your leap card get real

Bigmac1euro · 04-07-2019 11:28am

There is some clear sad cases on this forum willing to attack a younger poster (Maybe even follow them around) because it makes them feel better.
To be frank the passport thing sounds a bit whack but why attack him about that thread when it has nothing to do with a very good point he is making about getting a fine unfairly IMO.
I wouldn't pay the fine either i would fight it.

Bigmac1euro · 04-07-2019 11:30am

devnull wrote: »

daheff wrote: »

i always wonder why the trains dont have a validator on them too. would solve these problems.
/QUOTE]

Because this would encourage a type of non paymentcalled 'Conditional Validation evasion' where people only validate when they see an inspector rather than all of the time and also will argue that the validators don't work and that argument would be much easier to win than validators at stations which are reporting to a back office if they were online or not.

Works in a lot of other countries in Europe pretty well.
Validators on trains would also report back one would assume ?

GBX · 04-07-2019 11:44am

There's no attack going on - its an open forum where the OP has been posting in 2 threads for everybody to see and they have been contradicting themselves. The passport thing is "whack" yeah. :rolleyes:

As for being unfairly fined how so? He was caught without scanning his ticket - it was only free for kids if they scanned it on the validator prior to the journey. He didn't/couldn't walk 5 minutes to scan it and the inspector didnt accept his reasons but he is going to appeal it so life is good for them.

Bigmac1euro · 04-07-2019 12:19pm

GBX wrote: »

As for being unfairly fined how so?

The validator was broken, this is not the OP's fault. How are people supposed to know that you can validate on the other side for a journey going the opposite way?

GBX · 04-07-2019 12:38pm

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

The validator was broken, this is not the OP's fault. How are people supposed to know that you can validate on the other side for a journey going the opposite way?

Yeah it was broken and that's not ideal nor his fault but as the OP has stated other people get dropped off at the other side in order to use the validator there. So its not like he didnt know his options or hadnt seen anything on Twitter. Seems like he chose to ignore it, took a chance and got caught.

Fastidious wrote: »

No, I saw this on twitter after having been issued with a fpn.
Firstly there is no lift at the station only ramps and that is a major annoyance for those that need to cross over. There is a reason some get dropped the other side of the station, with the assumption that at least one of the validators are working.

devnull · 04-07-2019 1:02pm

Fastidious wrote: »

GBX wrote: »

Your reasoning doesn't make sense - you fear a greater penalty for this but also expect somebody to alter a passport application form that you and/or your parent incorrectly filled out and have them risk serious penalty/possibility of losing their job. Make your mind up. :rolleyes:

I get you are a teen and dislike the "system" as you got caught without a validated ticket. Pay the fine and move on.

I fail to see the correlation. I do see much sense in those passport workers being held accountable for their shortcomings. Whether or not this warrants a redundancy is truly up to their boss to decide. When a web chat advisor falsey assures you all is in order something has to be done.
I think anyone would dislike a system that requires you to walk in excess of 5 mins to validate your leap card get real

I don't know any station where there is only one validator within 5 minutes walk. . I presume this is why you won't name the station, because you will be called out for this.

Since you also don't answer the question of if your card had a photo or not I guess others will make their mind up about the reasons for this and if not tagging on was the only reason your ticket was invalid?

Bigmac1euro · 04-07-2019 1:15pm

GBX wrote: »

Yeah it was broken and that's not ideal nor his fault but as the OP has stated other people get dropped off at the other side in order to use the validator there. So its not like he didnt know his options or hadnt seen anything on Twitter. Seems like he chose to ignore it, took a chance and got caught.

If fairness he did mention he only seen it on twitter afterwards.
People getting dropped off and tagging off is not the same as people leaving on the opposite line tagging on, maybe they Irish Rail need to issue a comms informing people that if the validator is broken use the one on the other side of the track before slapping them with fines.

Fastidious · 04-07-2019 1:15pm

GBX wrote: »

There's no attack going on - its an open forum where the OP has been posting in 2 threads for everybody to see and they have been contradicting themselves. The passport thing is "whack" yeah. :rolleyes:

As for being unfairly fined how so? He was caught without scanning his ticket - it was only free for kids if they scanned it on the validator prior to the journey. He didn't/couldn't walk 5 minutes to scan it and the inspector didnt accept his reasons but he is going to appeal it so life is good for them.

Moderators, the abuse that I have been subjected to is nothing short of disgraceful. Like the above poster they claim to be these omnisicient creatures that claim to know the ins and outs of the appeal process when in reality they're just looking to bully me. Please ban them.

Fine

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