Fine

magicbastarder

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Ok so you know you're going to be driving on a countries roads, would you not take a look at the route you intend to go and if you see a toll booth on the app or the maps, find out how it works? Is that too much to ask?

yes, it is too much to ask. you keep hiding behind bad design as an excuse to browbeat people using a system they're not familiar with.

and no, i should *not* need to research how a badly designed toll system works. they should be designed well. it's a weird suggestion to make that the burden should be on the consumer to interpret how what should be a light touch process works, instead of on the toll booth operators to make things as transparent as possible.
i've only ever come across this toll system once while driving in spain, so the chances of me finding out about it if i had to go search for it would probably be very low.
and i don't speak spanish so maybe am not good at interpreting tone of voice, but i did get the impression that i certainly was not the first person to make the mistake.
if the mistake keeps being made, and the operators are aware of it, perhaps they should be looking into design changes to make the system easier to use rather than blaming their customers.

btw, i didn't read all of your response. one, i don't have time, and two, i saw the last sentence and that put me off it.

Stark

GBX wrote: »

Likewise, where does it say on the validator that it only applies to the direction of travel ?

Anyone who's ever used Luas/Dart will know this. The validator will charge you whatever the maximum fare is for whatever direction you're travelling in. In case you forget/deliberately decide not to tag off. So if for example you were getting on at Harcourt street in the days before green line extension and decided to use the validator on the platform heading in the direction of St. Stephen's green instead of Sandyford, you would be charged an invalid fare as the fare would only be for one stop.

magicbastarder

not sure if i'm misreading you, but no matter which platform you tag on, the tag essentially just reads 'boarded at harcourt street'. the key is that the tag off happens at sandyford, the tag system is not so dumb as to think that if you tagged on at harcourt street and off at sandyford, that you could have gone north.

Stark

A "default fare" is charged to your card when you tag on. When you tag off, this is partially refunded. If you forget to tag off, then this default fare is what you are charged. There is no requirement to tag off if you disembark at a terminal stop. Or at any stop for that matter, it just happens to be in your interest to tag off and be refunded for not travelling to the terminus.

The default fare is always the maximum fare for the direction you're about to travel in. So if you tagged on at a stop close to a terminal stop, on the platform heading in the terminal stop direction, only €1.54 would be charged to the leap card. (I've confirmed this many times when I'm getting on close to the nd of the line). Were you to travel in the opposite direction, past the point you've paid for, then you would be travelling with an invalid ticket.

If you were legitimately allowed validate on the opposite platform, this would commonly be used for fare evasion. Just tag on at whatever platform where the default fare is cheaper, then don't bother tagging off when you get off the tram.

Bigmac1euro

XPS_Zero wrote: »

They were not all broken though, in this case there were working validators at the platform. If they were all broke he'd have100% chance of winning the appeal and the inspectors would probably be told about them being busted.







It's not unreasonable I don't think, to ask someone to look up online how a system works before they get a card, or to leave a bit of wiggle room in their schedule in case a train is late etc
When I was going to LA I looked up how the MTA card worked, when I was going to London I looked up how the Oyster card worked, when I got any card here I looked up online how it works..why is this such a chore? For a generation who stare into their phones 24-7 instead of lookin at the world around them why is going to a website for less than 5 minutes that big a deal?





IMO that's like the signs in the bathroom that say "don't leave the baby alone on this baby changer shelf thing"...what I call moron signs, that need to be there for people who are too stupid to stand up without falling over again. If you look up how it works before going out you won't need such signs.






It's not a postcode lottery.

DART and Commuter services in the two main cities (exc Belfast obviously) Cork and Dublin are included, inside their short hop zones.
Irish Rail, something you can, as above, tell from looking at the website, has three types of services:
-DART
-Commutter
-Intercity (no free)





Controlling your emotions and your ego are central to maturing as you get older, and it's a stage, as you can see, most never go through cos they can't take just a LITTLE bit of humility in saying "ok I did things the dumb way on this occasion and walked myself into this".

Do you work for IR ?
Also, your posts are so long with so much spacing i reckon most people aren't reading them, your better off not wasting so much time on such huge posts which aren't been read.

magicbastarder

Stark wrote: »

A "default fare" is charged to your card when you tag on. When you tag off, this is partially refunded. If you forget to tag off, then this default fare is what you are charged. There is no requirement to tag off if you disembark at a terminal stop. Or at any stop for that matter, it just happens to be in your interest to tag off and be refunded for not travelling to the terminus.

you see the initial charge on the card as you tag on - can you confirm that a supplementary charge has not been levied within 90 or 120 minutes maybe if you don't tag off?

Stark

magicbastarder wrote: »

you see the initial charge on the card as you tag on - can you confirm that a supplementary charge has not been levied within 90 or 120 minutes maybe if you don't tag off?

Yes. I've done this many times when getting off at St. Stephen's green in the days when the green line terminated there. (Also when travelling to Connolly from Heuston). You would also see most people getting off there and not tagging off so it's commonly accepted practice.

Not so simple as "just lookup how it works" is it? (that's aimed at the likes of GBX, XPS_Zero, Riva10, bazwraf not at you btw)

magicbastarder

Stark wrote: »

Not so simple as "just lookup how it works" is it? (that's aimed at the likes of GBX, XPS_Zero, Riva10, bazwraf not at you btw)

sure, understood. i used to go from stephens green to sandyford, and then to central park, and the return trip, when i was a frequent luas user, so never had the opportunity to discover that.

GBX

Stark wrote: »

Yes. I've done this many times when getting off at St. Stephen's green in the days when the green line terminated there. (Also when travelling to Connolly from Heuston). You would also see most people getting off there and not tagging off so it's commonly accepted practice.

Not so simple as "just lookup how it works" is it? (that's aimed at the likes of GBX, XPS_Zero, Riva10, bazwraf not at you btw)

If somebody couldnt tag on for whatever reason as suggested by myself and others, the next logical thing would be to buy a ticket. Yes the system they use IR/Luas is not completely clear. But one thing that is clear is if you are not in possession of a valid ticket you are contravening the rules and liable to a fine as demonstrated by the OP.

Wishbone Ash

XPS_Zero wrote: »

....This just shows the problem people have now with the need to have everything spoon fed to them, to have the world revolve around t hem and their needs. Ok so you don't take PT often and don't know how the leap card works SO LOOK IT UP BEFORE GOING TO THE TRAIN STATION. If you don't look it up, how is that IE's fault rather than yours?
Why on earth, in any case, would a price be different going south than north from the same station? Where you tag off matters, it's common sense.

Now steady on!

I merely said I wasn't aware that you could tag on on the opposite side. If the validator wasn't working, I'd buy a ticket. I never suggested that I'd expect to travel free nor did I blame Irish Rail.

As for doing research, for a once in a blue moon short train journey? My time is too valuable to me. It's easier to just buy a ticket.

As for the millennial comment, the last time I used trains regularly, you had to push down the window to open the doors with the outside handle. I'm far from a millennial!

tipptom

XPS_Zero wrote: »

He didn't follow the rules required to take advantage of the service that's why it wasnt provided.

He wasn't provided with the service to follow the rules as their machine was broken.
Why blame the customer for this incompetence and to not provide a convenient back up for their customer and then to add insult to injury to fine them.

They should have a system in place whereby the inspector has all the relevant information stored of a machine broke down and to act accordingly for the customer and apologise for the inconvenience to them.

GBX

tipptom wrote: »

He wasn't provided with the service to follow the rules as their machine was broken.
Why blame the customer for this incompetence and to not provide a convenient back up for their customer and then to add insult to injury to fine them.

They should have a system in place whereby the inspector has all the relevant information stored of a machine broke down and to act accordingly for the customer and apologise for the inconvenience to them.

There may have been working ticket machines on either side to buy a single ticket. But he took yeah change with a non tagged/scanned leap card.

joeysoap

‘Kids’ from certain parts of the country can avail of this free travel, other ‘kids’ can’t. Bundoran to Donegal - no, Killarney to Tralee - no, Cahir to Thurles - no, etc . Bray to Howth - yes, Tallaght to Connolly - yes. Etc

So it is sort of post code lottery. I’m not objecting by the way, just saying if it’s in Leap land it should apply everywhere else.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote:

btw, i didn't read all of your response. one, i don't have time, and two, i saw the last sentence and that put me off it.

That says it all really.

magicbastarder wrote:

yes, it is too much to ask. you keep hiding behind bad design as an excuse to browbeat people using a system they're not familiar with.

Yes. Everything should be easy and work exactly how you want it. Never take into account that it works for the majority of people.

You don't have time to read a post, never mind learning how to use things. Why should you have to suffer because you couldn't be arsed learning?

Grow up

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

That says it all really.



Yes. Everything should be easy and work exactly how you want it. Never take into account that it works for the majority of people.

You don't have time to read a post, never mind learning how to use things. Why should you have to suffer because you couldn't be arsed learning?

Grow up

not grow up as he has made some very good points.

end of the road

end of the road wrote:

not grow up as he has made some very good points.

He took the time to write a post to tell another poster that he didn't have the time to read his post.

That's childish, hence the "grow up" remark.

magicbastarder

Deleted User wrote: »

He took the time to write a post to tell another poster that he didn't have the time to read his post.

i was being polite; i saw it was quite long, scanned it, and saw things like

"....instead of also helping him avoid this kinda error you are telling him to keep the fines and make all the mistakes but it's ok cos you can sit in the corner fuming at how RIGHT YOU ARE!!!!! URGHHHHHHHH YEH IM RIGHT IM RIGHT....and i'm broke from all these fines and keep getting in trouble BUT IM RIGHT...THE WORLD IS WRONG BUT YEH IM RIGHT...YEHHHHHHHHH"

and i decided, naaah, i've better things to be doing with my time than reading rants like that. if you think that's also childish, i can live with that.

n97 mini

devnull wrote: »

That's a good shout actually, it does have those very long ramps from the bridge and don't think it has barriers, but never got on/off there. It's one of few stations I've gone through many times but never actually got off at.

None of the stations on the Maynooth line have elevators except Drumcondra and very recently Broombridge.

When the station were being upgraded all the money was spent on staff building and facilities, now abandoned in several cases.

L1011

n97 mini wrote: »

None of the stations on the Maynooth line have elevators except Drumcondra and very recently Broombridge.

When the station were being upgraded all the money was spent on staff building and facilities, now abandoned in several cases.

And Navan Road Parkway.

Maynooth station staff told me there is a medium term plan for putting them at the road bridge but a: that seems unlikely and b: its probably bollox.

A new over-track station building opening on to the road bridge would be nice though!

n97 mini

L1011 wrote: »

And Navan Road Parkway.

Maynooth station staff told me there is a medium term plan for putting them at the road bridge but a: that seems unlikely and b: its probably bollox.

A new over-track station building opening on to the road bridge would be nice though!

Forgot NRPW.

They can have the station from Louisa Bridge. We're not using it!

tipptom

Why in gods name should somebody, as is been suggested by posters on here check their phone before leaving for a train to see if their machines are working or leave other things they have to do in their life to leave early to travel all over a railway station before their train looking for a machine that hasn't broke down?

The ticket has been bought and paid for and in their bank acc for a service that they want to fine you for because of THEIR incompetence to not supply an easily rectified fast alternative when their CUSTOMER has being inconvenienced.

There should be someone to fine IR for this when they try and extort their customers in this way and they would soon rectify their shortcomings.

gwalk

tipptom wrote: »

Why in gods name should somebody, as is been suggested by posters on here check their phone before leaving for a train to see if their machines are working or leave other things they have to do in their life to leave early to travel all over a railway station before their train looking for a machine that hasn't broke down?

The ticket has been bought and paid for and in their bank acc for a service that they want to fine you for because of THEIR incompetence to not supply an easily rectified fast alternative when their CUSTOMER has being inconvenienced.

There should be someone to fine IR for this when they try and extort their customers in this way and they would soon rectify their shortcomings.

Ticket wasnt paid for, kids go free is subsidised based upon tagging on and off to validate and record journeys 🙄

TheChrisD

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Sprinting over to the other side really does not seem like that big a deal to me tbh.

Explain what is so difficult about this? Esp for a young fit person? It would take what? I could get to the other side and back in under 30 seconds.

At some stations, that could still require you to walk effectively three platform lengths. Even on the shortest platforms on the network, that's at least 500m which would require world record Olympic pace to do the trek in under a minute.

n97 mini wrote: »

None of the stations on the Maynooth line have elevators except Drumcondra and very recently Broombridge.

Clonsilla, and as mentioned before Navan Road Parkway have elevators too. Plus all three on the M3 spur.

GBX wrote: »

If the validator wasnt working, the onus is still on the person to have a valid ticket to travel and if that means buying a single ticket thats what Irish Rail/Luas expect.

Bolded quote is a load of crock and you know it. Why should someone who has already prepaid for their journey by having travel credit or some other form of electronic ticket on their card, have to go out of their way to purchase a single journey with an alternative method of payment, because the expected working infrastructure isn't? That'd be like DB drivers saying to people "Oh, my validators are broken; cash fare only or you don't travel".

tipptom

gwalk wrote: »

Ticket wasnt paid for, kids go free is subsidised based upon tagging on and off to validate and record journeys ��

My understanding was he had a ticket and it wasn't validated as the machine was broke down.

gwalk

There was more than one validator, he chose not to validate his ticket

laoisgem

Am I the only one wondering what his parents had to say?

blackwhite

joeysoap wrote: »

‘Kids’ from certain parts of the country can avail of this free travel, other ‘kids’ can’t. Bundoran to Donegal - no, Killarney to Tralee - no, Cahir to Thurles - no, etc . Bray to Howth - yes, Tallaght to Connolly - yes. Etc

So it is sort of post code lottery. I’m not objecting by the way, just saying if it’s in Leap land it should apply everywhere else.

It does apply everywhere else. It's valid for all forms of public transport in all parts of the country for the month of July.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/children-can-travel-free-with-on-public-transport-until-end-of-july-933836.html

devnull

blackwhite wrote: »

joeysoap wrote: »

‘Kids’ from certain parts of the country can avail of this free travel, other ‘kids’ can’t. Bundoran to Donegal - no, Killarney to Tralee - no, Cahir to Thurles - no, etc . Bray to Howth - yes, Tallaght to Connolly - yes. Etc

So it is sort of post code lottery. I’m not objecting by the way, just saying if it’s in Leap land it should apply everywhere else.

It does apply everywhere else. It's valid for all forms of public transport in all parts of the country for the month of July.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/children-can-travel-free-with-on-public-transport-until-end-of-july-933836.html

It only applies in Leap Card areas.

blackwhite

devnull wrote: »

It only applies in Leap Card areas.

Had seen it in use in on LocalLink over the weekend - which doesn't require a Leap Card.

blackwhite

blackwhite wrote: »

Had seen it in use in on LocalLink over the weekend - which doesn't require a Leap Card.

https://www.locallink.ie/en/local-link-kids-go-free/

Quick check shows it wasn't just one service either

Always Tired

OP just appeal it and state your case as you did in the first post.

Don't pay any heed to people saying you should have validated on a different platform. Plenty of adults wouldn't have been able to figure that out tbh, especially if theyre not familiar with the way Irish Rail and Ireland in general operate (ie: badly) a LOT of posters on this site have this strange OTT authoritarian fascist streak where they condemn anyone who asks for advice, telling them how wrong they were and why didnt they do this or that it's unreal. They are bitter people who are basically lumping you in with all the junkies who fare dodge.

No judge is going to uphold a fine on a child. Especially during a free ride period, and especially with validators not working. Don't be afraid to go through this process. You will win the appeal, I'd put my house on it.

I would imagine it would be extremely bad press for Irish Rail also if this were to be published anywhere.

I had something similar happen to me on the Luas, the machine wasnt working to buy tickets, I jabbed at it like Floyd Mayweather for a full two minutes, no joy. Of course two stops later a ticket inspector got on. when I explained it to him he said I he had to give me a ticket and that i could appeal it. Then he said should have got off at the next stop, bought a ticket there and got on the next train! I told him that was ridiculous, I needed to get into town to catch another bus. I gave him a fake name and address, told him I had no ID on me and tossed the ticket on the floor as soon as he was gone.

If you're ever accosted by any ticket inspector for an unjust reason don't give them your name and just walk away they have no power to detain you or touch you whatsoever. They will try and stop you and say they are calling the guards but just walk off, unless you are very unlucky it will usually be a long time before a guard would get there if they even bother their hole which they probably won't.

I'm of the view that they are quite happy to let machines be broken and try to collect fines off people who are intimidated by them. The real scumbags who fare dodge they don't want to deal with so they go after easier targets for fines.

I can't believe they wouldn't just give you a warning to a 16 yr old kid who is meant to be going free anyway.

goingnowhere

Always Tired wrote: »

If you're ever accosted by any ticket inspector for an unjust reason don't give them your name and just walk away they have no power to detain you or touch you whatsoever. They will try and stop you and say they are calling the guards but just walk off, unless you are very unlucky it will usually be a long time before a guard would get there if they even bother their hole which they probably won't.

Its an offence to give a fake name and there is a power to detain, rarely used but its there.

Luas bye laws are very clear, if the machines are broken (and there are always multiple at each stop) you cannot travel.

Fastidious

laoisgem wrote: »

Am I the only one wondering what his parents had to say?

Laoisgem, the parents of fastidious couldn't be any less helpful. Although they agree with me they have refused to pay the fine and I will not give my hard earned money to these *****.
I have since emailed Irish Rail and have yet to receive a response. To make it as awkward as possible for them I have requested that all future correspondances be in Irish and that should they wish to pursue me I will threaten them with my non existent solicitor for defamation. I find it bizarre that of all people on the train I was targeted. Nice to see racial profiling still goes on in Ireland only this time perpetuated towards our very own.

I get it the ticket inspector was doing his job. But you'd want to be a sad **** to fine me of all the drunks and Spaniards that are known to evade fares all the time.

magicbastarder

you should threaten to ring joe duffy on them too.

Always Tired

goingnowhere wrote: »

Its an offence to give a fake name and there is a power to detain, rarely used but its there.
00l
Luas bye laws are very clear, if the machines are broken (and there are always multiple at each stop) you cannot travel.

1st bit: i could not care less, and no they can't detain you, would love to see them try.0l00

2nd bit: the stop had only the one broken one on the side going to town. Are you meant to then, and is it even possible to buy a ticket for the opposite direction from the other platform? Where is it signposted that this is what you should do? (It isn't)

the_syco

Fastidious wrote: »

Today at the train station the 2 validators were broken and if I were to go to the other side I would have missed the train.. I explained the situation to the inspector and besides kids travel free. I showed him my leap card and yet he still decides to issue me with a fine.

You shot yourself in the foot when you told him that you had access to working validation machines. Had you just said that the machines on your side were broken, and you didn't know about the other side as your train came into your station at that time, you'd probably have been fine.

gwalk

Racial profiling Haha

Some chip on your shoulder OP

Fastidious

Always Tired wrote: »

1st bit: i could not care less, and no they can't detain you, would love to see them try.0l00

The inspector was a big guy, running away was not an option. Also he had my name and I'm pretty he took note of my leap card number which my address is linked to

Fastidious

gwalk wrote: »

Racial profiling Haha

Some chip on your shoulder OP

No it's the plain truth. I think it's sick how they must have some kind of quota of fines they have to issue every day. There was this Romanian one selling tissues, in plain sight of the inspector, not a word given as he knows he won't get anywhere with her
Truth is white people are easy prey

Grolschevik

Fastidious wrote: »

No it's the plain truth. I think it's sick how they must have some kind of quota of fines they have to issue every day. There was this Romanian one selling tissues, in plain sight of the inspector, not a word given as he knows he won't get anywhere with her
Truth is white people are easy prey

Ok. I think you can **** off right about now.

Fastidious

Fastidious wrote: »

No it's the plain truth. I think it's sick how they must have some kind of quota of fines they have to issue every day. There was this Romanian one selling tissues, in plain sight of the inspector, not a word given as he knows he won't get anywhere with her
Truth is white people are easy prey

You should include that in your appeal, you'll definitely win

Always Tired

OP you're worrying about this way too much. Go in and state your case and you'll likely win the appeal as long as you dont start soapboxing and saying stupid stuff like you just have above.

Move on now, think about something else. You're actually punishing yourself more than IR ever could with all this freaking out about it dude.

monument

Fastidious wrote: »

No it's the plain truth. I think it's sick how they must have some kind of quota of fines they have to issue every day. There was this Romanian one selling tissues, in plain sight of the inspector, not a word given as he knows he won't get anywhere with her
Truth is white people are easy prey

Cut it out now

— moderator

Fastidious

monument wrote: »

Cut it out now

— moderator

Just an observation. Dont even tell me were a non white person issued with a fine they wouldn't try the racism card but I can't? Can't you see the hypocrisy in that

Fastidious

Grolschevik wrote: »

Ok. I think you can **** off right about now.

I feel threatened really

Fastidious

Furthermore, if the inspector was really doing his job then surely to God he would prevent the train from becoming some kind of market. Other people were breaking the rules he specifically targeted me and that isn't very fair.

gwalk

honestly you should get some help for that vicitm complex you seem to have developed.

its not healthy and you really wont get far in life if you think the world owes you a living

gmisk

Fastidious wrote: »

Furthermore, if the inspector was really doing his job then surely to God he would prevent the train from becoming some kind of market. Other people were breaking the rules he specifically targeted me and that isn't very fair.

You broke the rules and were rightly fined, but instead of sucking it up and paying it you are here basically complaining about "de foreigners".
The inspector was doing his job....hence giving you a fine.

Fastidious

gwalk wrote: »

honestly you should get some help for that vicitm complex you seem to have developed.

its not healthy and you really wont get far in life if you think the world owes you a living

I'm ****ing fine thanks for your concern
No I think as a loyal customer of IE, I deserve an explanation as to how they could fine someone who is in the right
Also to those stating it's protecting IE's revenue I really don't think this the case. Have been getting Bus Eireann as of late and 9 times out of 10 the bus drivers just say kids go free go on

gmisk

Fastidious wrote: »

I'm ****ing fine thanks for your concern
No I think as a loyal customer of IE, I deserve an explanation as to how they could fine someone who is in the right
Also to those stating it's protecting IE's revenue I really don't think this the case. Have been getting Bus Eireann as of late and 9 times out of 10 the bus drivers just say kids go free go on

But you werent in the right....you were travelling without a ticket/tagging in....hence the fine.