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Fine

  • 02-07-2019 9:58am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭ Fastidious


    This whole kids go free thing is load of crap

    Today at the train station the 2 validators were broken and if I were to go to the other side I would have missed the train.. I explained the situation to the inspector and besides kids travel free. I showed him my leap card and yet he still decides to issue me with a fine.

    Can anyone advise on the legality of asking a 16 year old their address?
    The station I departed from was unmanned so no support was available from staff, would this be a valid excuse? Seems fairly likely an appeal would succeed?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭ Xterminator
    Registered User


    yet he still decides to issue me with a fine.

    this is quite clearly nothing to do with the kids travel free issue.

    there were working validators on the platform, but you didn't use them - fine is valid.
    Can anyone advise on the legality of asking a 16 year old their address?
    specific bylaws for public transport ireland allow this. your really clutching at straws.

    58 (a) Any person who is reasonably suspected by an authorised person of contravening or attempting to contravene these Bye-Laws shall upon being requested so to do give his name and address to an authorized person who is an inspector, driver or conductor in uniform or who produces evidence of identity.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭ Fastidious


    this is quite clearly nothing to do with the kids travel free issue.

    there were working validators on the platform, but you didn't use them - fine is valid.


    [/I]

    Does Irish rail not have an obligation to ensure all validators are in operation. Due to your inability to read you misunderstood my complaint. My issue is that none of the validators were working my side. To tag on I would've had to make the long journey over the bridge thus leaving me stranded for an hour. Irish rail offered no support services for this no signs nothing. I think my complaint is valid and will succeed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,497 ✭✭✭✭ GBX
    Registered User


    Fastidious wrote: »
    Does Irish rail not have an obligation to ensure all validators are in operation. Due to your inability to read you misunderstood my complaint. My issue is that none of the validators were working my side. To tag on I would've had to make the long journey over the bridge thus leaving me stranded for an hour. Irish rail offered no support services for this no signs nothing. I think my complaint is valid and will succeed.

    There was an option to validate. You didnt use it. The onus is on you to validate the ticket even if it means going to the other side to do so. You didnt want to miss the train so took a chance so have to now pay the fine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 gwalk


    mega entitled school child reckons hes in the right... shock

    the reality of it is you chose not to validate your ticket, you were correctly issued a fine


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭ Fastidious


    gwalk wrote: »
    mega entitled school child reckons hes in the right... shock

    the reality of it is you chose not to validate your ticket, you were correctly issued a fine

    Irish rail also chose not to rectify the issue that was flaged hours before this happened.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 gwalk


    Fastidious wrote: »
    Irish rail also chose not to rectify the issue that was flaged hours before this happened.

    do you know this was flagged?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭ Fastidious


    GBX wrote: »
    There was an option to validate. You didnt use it. The onus is on you to validate the ticket even if it means going to the other side to do so. You didnt want to miss the train so took a chance so have to now pay the fine.

    You assume everyone is in a position to walk over that bridge with absolute 0 regard for those with mobility problems.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭ Fastidious


    gwalk wrote: »
    do you know this was flagged?

    Yes reported on twitter


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 gwalk


    Fastidious wrote: »
    gwalk wrote: »
    do you know this was flagged?

    Yes reported on twitter

    Why didnt you leave yourself enough time to tag on then? Seeing as how you were aware of such issue?

    Perhaps the maintenance personnel were on their way to fix it


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,497 ✭✭✭✭ GBX
    Registered User


    Fastidious wrote: »
    You assume everyone is in a position to walk over that bridge with absolute 0 regard for those with mobility problems.

    Reasonable assumption in my opinion as you never mentioned once about having mobility issues.
    Even if you do, you still needed to validate your ticket based on what you have said in that you tried. You were aware of validator issues before hand but didn’t leave enough time to get to the station and validate the ticket on either side if needs be. When did you contact them on Twitter? Before or after getting fined?

    As for "that bridge" I dont know the bridge. You are now assuming everyone on here knows the bridge in question and that only one side of the station has working validators.

    Appeal if you feel wronged. But the inspector was only doing his job.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,497 ✭✭✭✭ GBX
    Registered User


    "Kids Go Free" "How does it work?
    Simply use your Child Leap Card as normal and you won’t be charged. Any Child Leap Card (5-15 or 16-18) can be used to get free travel from Monday 1st July until Sunday 28th July (inclusive) provided it has at least 1 cent Travel Credit.


    You didnt use your leap card as normal as you didnt validate it. https://about.leapcard.ie/kids-go-free


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,782 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011
    Moderator


    Username and commitment to using the Leap card properly do not match I see

    The trip is only free with a validated Leap card. Irish Rail are likely being paid by the NTA for the trip, they won't get anything unless you're tagged in.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull
    Moderator


    Fastidious wrote: »
    Today at the train station the 2 validators were broken and if I were to go to the other side I would have missed the train.. I explained the situation to the inspector and besides kids travel free. I showed him my leap card and yet he still decides to issue me with a fine.

    Can anyone advise on the legality of asking a 16 year old their address?
    The station I departed from was unmanned so no support was available from staff, would this be a valid excuse? Seems fairly likely an appeal would succeed?

    You must have a valid ticket before boarding the train

    However, a few questions:
    1) What station did you board at?
    2) Does your Leap Card have a photo on it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,599 ✭✭✭✭ end of the road
    Registered User


    this is quite clearly nothing to do with the kids travel free issue.

    there were working validators on the platform, but you didn't use them - fine is valid.

    specific bylaws for public transport ireland allow this. your really clutching at straws.

    58 (a) Any person who is reasonably suspected by an authorised person of contravening or attempting to contravene these Bye-Laws shall upon being requested so to do give his name and address to an authorized person who is an inspector, driver or conductor in uniform or who produces evidence of identity.

    they are not clutching at straws as they are making a query.

    julian the journalist asange is innocent, free julian the journalist.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭ Fastidious


    gwalk wrote: »
    Why didnt you leave yourself enough time to tag on then? Seeing as how you were aware of such issue?

    Perhaps the maintenance personnel were on their way to fix it
    No, I saw this on twitter after having been issued with a fpn.
    Firstly there is no lift at the station only ramps and that is a major annoyance for those that need to cross over. There is a reason some get dropped the other side of the station, with the assumption that at least one of the validators are working. It would be very unreasonable for me to be required to effectively stalk their twitter page for updates regarding validators malfunctioning.
    Either way not paying it gonna appeal and worst comes to worse any fair judge would side with me on this.
    Convinced all of you work for Irish rail or something. If there is no reasonable way to tap on, it should be free. Even Bus Eireann get this right


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,159 ✭✭✭✭ DaCor
    Registered User


    Fastidious wrote: »
    No, I saw this on twitter after having been issued with a fpn.
    Firstly there is no lift at the station only ramps and that is a major annoyance for those that need to cross over. There is a reason some get dropped the other side of the station, with the assumption that at least one of the validators are working. It would be very unreasonable for me to be required to effectively stalk their twitter page for updates regarding validators malfunctioning.
    Either way not paying it gonna appeal and worst comes to worse any fair judge would side with me on this.
    Convinced all of you work for Irish rail or something. If there is no reasonable way to tap on, it should be free. Even Bus Eireann get this right

    Not at all, just everyone here is familiar with fines and how the process works

    Just do a quick search for the same issue and you'll find hundreds of threads from down through the years.

    An IR fine is next to impossible to get out of paying once issued


  • Registered Users Posts: 502 ✭✭✭ Sinus pain
    Registered User


    Show the judge the tweet- a picture of the bridge and prove your mobility issues - you shouldn’t have a problem then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,159 ✭✭✭✭ DaCor
    Registered User


    Sinus pain wrote: »
    Show the judge the tweet- a picture of the bridge and prove your mobility issues - you shouldn’t have a problem then.

    I'm not sure Op has mobility issues, he hasn't claimed to anyway


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    Fastidious wrote: »
    Today at the train station the 2 validators were broken and if I were to go to the other side I would have missed the train.. I explained the situation to the inspector and besides kids travel free. I showed him my leap card and yet he still decides to issue me with a fine.

    The kids go free for July is a scheme paid for by the NTA who pay IE, BE and DB the same amount regardless if there is a kids go free scheme or not. In other words if you don't scan IE don't get paid by the NTA for allowing you travel FOC hence why you must scan. The kids go free scheme is irrelevant in this scenario.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭ Fastidious


    DaCor wrote: »
    I'm not sure Op has mobility issues, he hasn't claimed to anyway
    Yes fourtunately not but that's besides the point. I think this will strengthen my case.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 117 ✭✭ Fastidious


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    The kids go free for July is a scheme paid for by the NTA who pay IE, BE and DB the same amount regardless if there is a kids go free scheme or not. In other words if you don't scan IE don't get paid by the NTA for allowing you travel FOC hence why you must scan. The kids go free scheme is irrelevant in this scenario.

    Yes ok but for a scheme that purports to encourage travel, cases like mine discourage young people to use public transport.


  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭ XPS_Zero
    Registered User


    Legally, the question is did you have the opportunity to validate the ticket: you did.



    Why you did not was a matter of convenience not inability, this is the thing.


    For many many MANY years going back to primary school I've heard so many convos with inspectors on the train and people would say "oh i was running for the train I would have missed it!". ...right but the way they look at it is your schedule is not IE's responsibility it's yours. It's our job to get to the station in plenty of time in case this kinda stuff happens. It may be the most used excuse in the entire cannon in fact, I've seen it on all the fine threads set up here too.


    I would also advise that winning a battle with them is HARD. I was in the right 1000% with a luas fine and it took me weeks of battling letter after letter and forcing them to check cctv footage to let the thing go, I had to convince them I'd go to court because there was no intent to defraud them of fare in my situation.


    I guess that's why you feel wronged, because you had no intent to defraud either, but you also did break the rules, you had a chance to validate and you didn't.



    The mobility/disability thing does not work with them either btw. I've a free travel card (not for much longer though) due to two life threatening conditions and I was told I HAVE to validate the card each time I go through so when the inspector puts his machine on the card he can see it's current and live (the expiry on the front is the CARD expiry not the travel entitlements expiry). I was also told if I'm going outside the SHZ I have to go to the office and get an actual physical ticket, and though most would let it go, some would / could issue a fine.
    The guys in the Connolly desk know my face well now, and so one day I didn't put the card up on the desk one day when ordering a ticket, I got a blank stare and a "got your card?" and that's when they know me. Thems the rules.







    I know it feels like a stupid technicality but you have to understand the danger is always setting a precedent someone can use to dodge the fare. Imagine if they allowed the "I was late for work and running for the train" excuse, how many more people would dodge their fare and use that if RPU came upon them?


    Chock it up to a lesson in life we've all had to learn: you gotta follow the rules, even the ones you don't like or agree with.
    Another key lesson I'll pass on mate: never rely on CIE, always get there 5 minutes earlier as spillover time just in case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    Fastidious wrote: »
    Yes ok but for a scheme that purports to encourage travel, cases like mine discourage young people to use public transport.

    You need to read the terms and conditions everything has terms and conditions. Not scanning your Leap even when there is a free travel scheme for children is the same to IE as not paying your fare when fares are being charged to children either way it's lost revenue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭ Charles Babbage
    Registered User


    The NTA should require validators on the train or an obligation to keep those on the platform working


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,264 ✭✭✭ Bigmac1euro
    Registered User


    Going to the other side of the platform to validate a ticket is a load of bollox. Nobody should have to do this, they should have validators on the train, the whole system is a load of ****e.
    This country is so backward when it comes to even the simplest things. I had a similar issue 1 night leaving leixlip to go to Connolly and if I missed the train I was sleeping in the train station so I chose not to validate. I explained at the other end and they let me pay then. You shouldn’t be able to get a fine if the validators don’t work and the guy issuing the fine should be able to check this.
    I took a photo of them when it happened with me to show an inspector had he got on,
    Failing this he was getting a false name and address.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭ Stephen15


    I agree that that IE should be making sure the validator is working btw. On the continent ticket inspectors are generally much more common and very don't take any nonsense especially when it ocome to invalidated tickets but also on the continent an operator would generally be making sure all validators are working.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,264 ✭✭✭ Bigmac1euro
    Registered User


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I agree that that IE should be making sure the validator is working btw. On the continent ticket inspectors are generally much more common and very don't take any nonsense especially when it ocome to invalidated tickets but also on the continent an operator would generally be making sure all validators are working.

    Also in a lot of places the validators are on the trains.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭ delly
    Radiator


    While it's a pain in the ass, them's the rules. The same applies to pay and display car parking spots. If you find that the ticket machine on the street is broken, you don't just leave your car and say, sure I'm grand, the machine is at fault. You have to find the next nearest machine and use that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,362 ✭✭✭ dartboardio
    Registered User


    You seem to have form for blaming others for things you are responsible for.


    From your parents putting the wrong date on your passport application, and you blaming the passport office... To this.

    Gold!


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭ devnull
    Moderator


    I will ask again.

    What station did you board at with no lifts?
    Did your Leap card have your picture on it?


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