Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

otnomart · 02-07-2019 07:19PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

Murmurs that Donald Tusk had proposed Leo Varadkar as one of 3 names to assume the role European Commission President to replace Junker, and Leo asked not to be considered.

It might have been good to have an Irishman in the role with the advent of Brexit

I also feel that Timmermans (who was vetoed by Varadkar) would have been more favourable to Ireland.
While the President - nominee might go after Corporate Tax in Ireland, Netherlands, Luxembourg.

Strazdas · 02-07-2019 07:42PM

devnull wrote: »

In the UK at the moment and local Tory association is running a campaign at grass roots level to back Boris on the basis that he will not allow the EU to put up a hard border against the wishes of the UK and if the Irish government or the EU put one up they will be breaking the Good Friday agreement and will have blood on their hands.

The groundwork is really now being laid for the usual Tory party policy of doing everything behind the scenes that messed the country up but finding some else to blame. See also, blaming the Mayor of London for knife crime whilst making big cuts to policing.

The Tory party are good at two things, willfully derelicting their duties and having a blame culture so everyone is to blame but themselves. The arrogance of Boris and the wider party is staggering, but the Brexiteers are now lapping it up. My father lives in ENgland and basically is repeating every word that Boris mutters!

The arrogance of the Brits is still very much alive and well, they make a list and everyone else must agree to it and if they are not then they see it as punishment. The thing is, the older population for the most part don't see that it's not punishment at all, it's called the consequences of leaving and honest people would take responsibility for that, but the Tory party aren't honest at all, they have huge deelusions of grandeur.

I know of several families now where relationships have completely broken down and people are not talking to each other over the whole thing. This is directly caused by many of those politicians who have not been honest with the electorate and have sewn division for their own agendas. It is an absolute disgrace and if I was living there right now I would be so angry, just as well I only work there some of the time.

A bonkers way of looking at things. The UK unilaterally withdraws from the SMCU (a pretty hostile act by any stretch of the imagination) and then accuses the EU and Ireland of breaching the GFA (!)

Professor Moriarty · 02-07-2019 07:58PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

If I ever go to Twitter and click through comments on Brexit it is always posters with non identifier handles that post exclusively on Brexit. They don't seem to be normal people that engage with a variety of topics, just one and hardcore.

As for the behaviour in parliament today, the Brexit party nor the Lib Dems covered themselves in glory. Europe doesn't need their pantomime politics further poisoning the well. They should keep their theatrics to Westminster.

While parliament want the place for it, disrespecting an anthem is a normal form of protest, turning your back, taking the knee and just sitting are all ways to show that you don't recognize the institution it represents. It should be noted that other populists in the parliament didn't stand.

But only the Brexit party made headlines throughout Europe. Why?

woohoo!!! · 02-07-2019 08:48PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

MrMusician18 wrote: »

If I ever go to Twitter and click through comments on Brexit it is always posters with non identifier handles that post exclusively on Brexit. They don't seem to be normal people that engage with a variety of topics, just one and hardcore.

As for the behaviour in parliament today, the Brexit party nor the Lib Dems covered themselves in glory. Europe doesn't need their pantomime politics further poisoning the well. They should keep their theatrics to Westminster.

While parliament want the place for it, disrespecting an anthem is a normal form of protest, turning your back, taking the knee and just sitting are all ways to show that you don't recognize the institution it represents. It should be noted that other populists in the parliament didn't stand.

But only the Brexit party made headlines throughout Europe. Why?

They didn't. Don't mistake British and Irish attention to them as being newsworthy throughout Europe. The opening parliament barely registers, the wheeling and dealing over top EU positions does.

J Mysterio · 02-07-2019 09:07PM

devnull wrote: »

In the UK at the moment and local Tory association is running a campaign at grass roots level to back Boris on the basis that he will not allow the EU to put up a hard border against the wishes of the UK and if the Irish government or the EU put one up they will be breaking the Good Friday agreement and will have blood on their hands.

The groundwork is really now being laid for the usual Tory party policy of doing everything behind the scenes that messed the country up but finding some else to blame. See also, blaming the Mayor of London for knife crime whilst making big cuts to policing.

The Tory party are good at two things, willfully derelicting their duties and having a blame culture so everyone is to blame but themselves. The arrogance of Boris and the wider party is staggering, but the Brexiteers are now lapping it up. My father lives in ENgland and basically is repeating every word that Boris mutters!

The arrogance of the Brits is still very much alive and well, they make a list and everyone else must agree to it and if they are not then they see it as punishment. The thing is, the older population for the most part don't see that it's not punishment at all, it's called the consequences of leaving and honest people would take responsibility for that, but the Tory party aren't honest at all, they have huge deelusions of grandeur.

I know of several families now where relationships have completely broken down and people are not talking to each other over the whole thing. This is directly caused by many of those politicians who have not been honest with the electorate and have sewn division for their own agendas. It is an absolute disgrace and if I was living there right now I would be so angry, just as well I only work there some of the time.

I feel your pain, but don't let Brexit ruin the relationship with your Dad.

J Mysterio · 02-07-2019 09:10PM

otnomart wrote: »

I also feel that Timmermans (who was vetoed by Varadkar) would have been more favourable to Ireland.
While the President - nominee might go after Corporate Tax in Ireland, Netherlands, Luxembourg.

Who said Varadkar vetoed anybody? Is there a source for that.

MrMusician18 · 02-07-2019 09:49PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Who said Varadkar vetoed anybody? Is there a source for that.

RTE reported last night that he was against Timmermans because he is a socialist but EPP won the election.

No state has a veto QMV for the nomination but they were looking for unanimity, or close to unanimity.

Beechwoodspark · 02-07-2019 10:11PM

gooch2k9 wrote: »

I'd say The Telegraph's cartoonists are already digging for dirt on the nominees. They'll miss Juncker and his wine.

As for the number of conservatives here in NI, they do run candidates in the GEs but I don't think they get more than a handful of votes so I too would be surprised at the 500 count.

Juncker was a cognac for breakfast man apparently.

otnomart · 02-07-2019 10:12PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Who said Varadkar vetoed anybody? Is there a source for that.

I have read it first on Politico
“As EPP, we haven’t agreed to the package that was negotiated in Osaka. I think it’s fair to say there’s a lot opposition to the proposal that was made in Osaka from the EPP’s point of view," Varadkar said, arriving at the Council's Europa building. "The vast majority of the EPP prime ministers don’t believe that we should give up the presidency of the Commission quite so easily, without a fight.”
Full article here https://www.politico.eu/article/european-council-summit-conservatives-rebel-against-angela-merkel-eu-top-jobs-osaka-g20-plan/

Beechwoodspark · 02-07-2019 10:16PM

Strazdas wrote: »

I imagine Varadkar's thinking is that it is way too soon in his career. He's only been Taoiseach for two years and is still a young man.

The reports were that it was sprung on him by Tusk sort of out of desperation to come to some arrangement. Firstly LV didn’t want the role and also didn’t have a notion if he was popular enough to get the role. He was right to decline it I think.

Professor Moriarty · 02-07-2019 10:19PM

woohoo!!! wrote: »

They didn't. Don't mistake British and Irish attention to them as being newsworthy throughout Europe. The opening parliament barely registers, the wheeling and dealing over top EU positions does.

They did. This afternoon, the Brexit Party's antics were headline news on the websites of Der Spiegel, Le Figaro, El Pais and Corriere della Sera.

otnomart · 02-07-2019 10:28PM

otnomart wrote: »

I have read it first on Politico

And also came across this on Twitter

"What ended up sinking Merkel’s “Osaka plan” was not the far-right in Hungary, Poland and Italy. It was instead the more centrist leaders of Ireland, Bulgaria, Croatia, and Latvia. They balked, saying such an arrangement made it seem as if the EPP had come third in the election, when they had in fact won. They would not countenance letting the commission presidency slip from the EPP’s grip.
Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar was, surprisingly, the most vocal in his objections."
Full article here: https://berlinpolicyjournal.com/spoiled-victors/

reslfj · 02-07-2019 10:31PM

Berserker wrote: »

....
The Brexit party do not want an extension. They want to leave, deal or no deal.
...

Even after a 'No Deal' Brexit the UK will urgently need a lot of trade and even more non trade deals with the EU27.

Such deals can't even be negotiated with the EU27 unless and until the UK has signed and ratified all of the WA text except the transition periods.

The main points are:

EU citizens rights in the UK and UK citizens in the EU27
The agreed payment of the £39bn or whatever it turns out to be
The Irish backstop

This is a very firm and explicitly stated EU27 policy.

The WA text is the basis for everything EU27-UK related except an A50 revoke.

Lars

Frank Bullitt · 02-07-2019 10:34PM

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/canada-is-refusing-to-roll-over-its-eu-trade-agreement-for

Canada Is Refusing To Roll Over Its EU Trade Agreement For The UK If There's A No-Deal Brexit

It doesn't seem to be getting any better for them.

Sam Russell · 02-07-2019 10:39PM

Gintonious wrote: »

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/canada-is-refusing-to-roll-over-its-eu-trade-agreement-for

Canada Is Refusing To Roll Over Its EU Trade Agreement For The UK If There's A No-Deal Brexit

It doesn't seem to be getting any better for them.

Sort of Canada (minus) (minus). David Davis would be proud - perhaps not.

Frank Bullitt · 02-07-2019 10:42PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Sort of Canada (minus) (minus). David Davis would be proud - perhaps not.

Well, in fairness, he was going to Berlin (so he said) the day after the vote...when he should have been going to Brussels. So he can be proud or embarrassed, doesn't make much of a difference

Professor Moriarty · 02-07-2019 10:57PM

Juncker's replacement, Ursula von der Leyen, is a staunch critic of Brexit calling it a "burst bubble of hollow promises". She is also firmly in favour of the backstop. Wishing Johnson all the best.

reslfj · 02-07-2019 10:59PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

...
It might have been good to have an Irishman in the role with the advent of Brexit
...

As little Ireland is among the most exposed EU27 members in any kind Brexit, it looks like the most awful and disastrous idea to have an Irish politician anywhere at or close to the EU top.

The Irish politicians must operate out of Dublin towards Brussels and hide behind the EU officials.

Let the EU negotiate or indeed not negotiate with the UK.

This is not different from any other professional negotiation.

Lars

eagle eye · 02-07-2019 11:01PM

First Up wrote:

They can "blame" whoever they like for all the difference it makes.
The UK decided to leave for entirely domestic political reasons; they have full responsibility for the consequences.

In fairness the remain crowd with their spoilt brat approach have to share the blame for the country voting to leave. They were pathetic.

Leroy42 · 02-07-2019 11:09PM

But whatever the Remain side did or didn't do, they are in no way to blame for this seemingly unstoppable drive towards No Deal.

Remember that Leave was made up of a bunch of lies. Many leave voters first didn't believe that leaving would cause any issues, they didn't believe Project Fear.
Second they were told that a new deal would be easy.
They would stay in the Single Market.
And even Farage claimed they would end up like Norway or Switzerland.

Regardless of how it is now being painted by the Tories and BP, the UK had a myriad of soft leave options open to them on the day of the result. Leaver decided to totally abandon any sense of reality and living up to the promises they made in order to end up where they are today.

It is totally and utterly Brexiteers fault.

Spanish Eyes · 02-07-2019 11:14PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Juncker's replacement, Ursula von der Leyen, is a staunch critic of Brexit calling it a "burst bubble of hollow promises". She is also firmly in favour of the backstop. Wishing Johnson all the best.

Quite. But diplomacy will be a key factor too, especially coming from a German at this stage. I am sure she will do a good job though, well I hope so!

Could I ask where you found out those details about Frau von der Leyen? Thanks.

Professor Moriarty · 02-07-2019 11:17PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Quite. But diplomacy will be a key factor too, especially coming from a German at this stage. I am sure she will do a good job though, well I hope so!

Could I ask where you found out those details about Frau von der Leyen? Thanks.

The Guardian

Spanish Eyes · 02-07-2019 11:19PM

eagle eye wrote: »

In fairness the remain crowd with their spoilt brat approach have to share the blame for the country voting to leave. They were pathetic.

Remain were in fairness a bit stymied by the vote in favour of Brexit. Any challenge to that could only result in chants of "the will of the people" and so on.

But I agree that they did not seem to be able to rubbish the Hard Brexit argument with facts at all.

Anyway, the only good thing I see from all this is that Parliament has rejected No Deal, and has also rejected the WA.

But they have failed to tell anyone what they are ACTUALLY in favour of. Yet.

Leroy42 · 02-07-2019 11:24PM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

But I agree that they did not seem to be able to rubbish the Hard Brexit argument with facts at all.

Sorry, but they have. Repeatedly. The commons working groups, the BoE, the civil service, the EU. Economists, EU politicians. Japan PM. Japanese car manufacturers. CBI. Trade unions. Labour membership.

The problem is not that they haven't been able to rubbish the arguments, reality has done that perfectly well on its own, its that the Brexiteers simply do not care about facts.

Strazdas · 02-07-2019 11:36PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Juncker's replacement, Ursula von der Leyen, is a staunch critic of Brexit calling it a "burst bubble of hollow promises". She is also firmly in favour of the backstop. Wishing Johnson all the best.

I was reading today she was live on German TV after the referendum with the British ambassador (a discussion show or something) and asked him incredulously "You mean to say you held a referendum with no plan in place to implement the result? No plan?"

Spanish Eyes · 02-07-2019 11:45PM

Strazdas wrote: »

I was reading today she was live on German TV after the referendum with the British ambassador (a discussion show or something) and asked him incredulously "You mean to say you held a referendum with no plan in place to implement the result? No plan?"

The Ambassador has no power, he is a diplomat.

But hopefully she will address this question to those actually in power now.

Someone has to ask the hard questions and to hell with the consequences, it can't be worse than what is happening now.

Professor Moriarty · 02-07-2019 11:52PM

Strazdas wrote: »

I was reading today she was live on German TV after the referendum with the British ambassador (a discussion show or something) and asked him incredulously "You mean to say you held a referendum with no plan in place to implement the result? No plan?"

He probably thought it was insane too.

Spanish Eyes · 02-07-2019 11:56PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

He probably thought it was insane too.

but he couldn't say it as a diplomat could he? Wrong target for such precise challenges.

20silkcut · 03-07-2019 12:00AM

Gintonious wrote: »

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/canada-is-refusing-to-roll-over-its-eu-trade-agreement-for

It doesn't seem to be getting any better for them.

Would this be a good analogy for this?

I’m not going to marry you because I will have full conjugal rights anytime I want without having to enter a contract of marriage once the 31st October passes.

Strazdas · 03-07-2019 12:13AM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The Ambassador has no power, he is a diplomat.

But hopefully she will address this question to those actually in power now.

Someone has to ask the hard questions and to hell with the consequences, it can't be worse than what is happening now.

By "you", I'm sure she meant "you in Britain". not the British ambassador personally.

By all accounts, she thinks Brexit is a fiasco.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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