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Homelessness on the rise (over 130 more children) - Mod Warning Post #392

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    #362
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,174 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    I think you'll find that most people accept there is a housing crisis and a lot of people struggling to find somewhere to live, but most are annoyed that there are so many obviously gaming the system and doing sweet f all to help themselves.

    Genuine cases do of course deserve attention. But many of these we know nothing about because we have those who know what to do to get up the list plastered all over the papers and websites.


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    #363
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    NIMAN wrote: »
    I think you'll find that most people accept there is a housing crisis and a lot of people struggling to find somewhere to live, but most are annoyed that there are so many obviously gaming the system and doing sweet f all to help themselves.

    Genuine cases do of course deserve attention. But many of these we know nothing about because we have those who know what to do to get up the list plastered all over the papers and websites.


    Who are these gaming the stats people? If there are so many do we have any evidence? And surely the numbers on the housing list would be way down if so many are at it? Doesn’t make any sense and there’s just no evidence of it outside rag media stories about it


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    #364
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    The relentless anger against homeless people and homeless families on these very forums is telling. When they actually admit they exist and there is a housing crisis that is. Some here would tell you there is neither. People are either ignorant of the facts or realities or are just argumentative toolbags

    Erica Fleming and Margaret Cash have a lot to answer for! They’ve shown that it’s possible to jump the queue.
    We are so lucky to live in a society that cares for all its people. What people would like is to see people accepting personal responsibility for their lives. When you read about girls in their 20’s have baby after baby with no way of supporting them, expecting to be given a house in their desired area, you have to wonder. Look after the vulnerable and those who are making efforts to better themselves.


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    #365
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Erica Fleming and Margaret Cash have a lot to answer for! They’ve shown that it’s possible to jump the queue.
    We are so lucky to live in a society that cares for all its people. What people would like is to see people accepting personal responsibility for their lives. When you read about girls in their 20’s have baby after baby with no way of supporting them, expecting to be given a house in their desired area, you have to wonder. Look after the vulnerable and those who are making efforts to better themselves.

    We have an ever dwindling supply and no replacement housing stock being Produced, and a pretty rapidly growing population. To single one group or social class out (well, three groups if we count travellers and immigrants) as we see here day after day after day, misses the point and misunderstands the problem greatly.


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    #366
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    We have an ever dwindling supply and no replacement housing stock being Produced, and a pretty rapidly growing population. To single one group or social class out (well, three groups if we count travellers and immigrants) as we see here day after day after day, misses the point and misunderstands the problem greatly.

    I think that the biggest barrier to building are the councilors objecting to so much. Houses aren’t needed. Plenty of apartments would suffice. Or bring back bedsits.


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    #367
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I think that the biggest barrier to building are the councilors objecting to so much. Houses aren’t needed. Plenty of apartments would suffice. Or bring back bedsits.

    You would have to look at councils and policy and ask why and why Is nothing happening. But then the same time You have people saying not in my backyard and objecting. And blocking development.
    High density high rise should absolutely go ahead but it comes with problems too after the fact and those factors are probably a reason among others that they haven’t happened yet.


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    #368
    TSQ
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭TSQ


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    We have an ever dwindling supply and no replacement housing stock being Produced, and a pretty rapidly growing population. To single one group or social class out (well, three groups if we count travellers and immigrants) as we see here day after day after day, misses the point and misunderstands the problem greatly.
    I dont think the op was targeting any social class, just freeloaders who are always on the take and never contribute to society. No-one would object to low paid workers being helped with accommodation costs if there is some attempt at fairness re making a reasonable contribution (15% of income up to a €430 cap for principle earner and something like €25 per week extra for all other wage earners in a household is taking the p). Never having a job and having lots of kids from a young age, whether or not it is a deliberate ploy to get a free house, is a lifestyle choice that is not good or fair for the children of such families nor for society as a whole.


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    #369
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,788 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Why is it always ultra low precentage of income on rent that seems to upset people a lot more then excesively high percentage of income on rent.


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    #370
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    “Homeless Crisis In Numbers

    36,000 - The number of new housing units that business group IBEC estimates are needed to be built a year to tackle the housing crisis

    20,000 - The "very optimistic figure" for 2019 that Focus Ireland believes will be built

    56%- The percentage of homeless who originate from outside of Ireland

    58% - The percentage of homeless families consisting of just one parent

    3,794 - The number of children living in emergency accommodation in Ireland, according to the Department of Housing

    5,000 - The number of homeless people who moved into independent tenancies in 2018.

    Indo Review”
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/we-have-done-nothing-wrong-a-day-in-the-life-of-a-homeless-family-38260238.html

    5,000 homeless people homed. Why doesn’t this get more publicity?


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    #371
    TSQ
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭TSQ


    Old diesel wrote: »
    Why is it always ultra low precentage of income on rent that seems to upset people a lot more then excesively high percentage of income on rent.

    Because it is the people paying big rent or mortgages who are also subsidising social housing rents. No-one is suggesting these rents should move in line with market rents, but there should be some semblance of paying a fair rent that reflects the upkeep and renewal costs. As it is, the ridiculous rents are an incentive for people to declare themselves homeless and a disincentive for the council to build and maintain houses.


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    #372
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,788 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    TSQ wrote: »
    Old diesel wrote: »
    Why is it always ultra low precentage of income on rent that seems to upset people a lot more then excesively high percentage of income on rent.

    Because it is the people paying big rent or mortgages who are also subsidising social housing rents. No-one is suggesting these rents should move in line with market rents, but there should be some semblance of paying a fair rent that reflects the upkeep and renewal costs. As it is, the ridiculous rents are an incentive for people to declare themselves homeless and a disincentive for the council to build and maintain houses.

    What is being paid in "big rent" is excessive when spread out over the long term.

    So those of you paying it need to target Government on that and show the level of anger on that - that you have for some someone paying 15 percent of rent.

    It's NOT the council tenants fault that the landlord paid big money for a house in 2006 and needs to salvage his/her shortfall as much as possible.

    It's NOT the council tenants fault the mortgage costs "so much".


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    #373
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    TSQ wrote: »
    I dont think the op was targeting any social class, just freeloaders who are always on the take and never contribute to society. No-one would object to low paid workers being helped with accommodation costs if there is some attempt at fairness re making a reasonable contribution (15% of income up to a €430 cap for principle earner and something like €25 per week extra for all other wage earners in a household is taking the p). Never having a job and having lots of kids from a young age, whether or not it is a deliberate ploy to get a free house, is a lifestyle choice that is not good or fair for the children of such families nor for society as a whole.


    That’s a societal issue of generations having fallen through the cracks and coming from poor areas where there has been no investment in education and education and further education isn’t encouraged. Look at the stats about areas of Dublin that see kids go on to college.
    The ones you mentioned though are used as a catchall broad strike for anyone in any situation needing a house as a scrounger( im talking specifically about these forums and topics). You can barely find a thread or conversation about any social issue that doesn’t descend quickly into blaming doleits immigrants travellers whatever you’re having yourself. As it relates to housing, not everyone is a scrounger yet we only seem to see that stupid point being made ad nauseum


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    #374
    TSQ
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭TSQ


    Old diesel wrote: »
    Why is it always ultra low precentage of income on rent that seems to upset people a lot more then excesively high percentage of income on rent.

    Rents for council houses... my mistake - in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown it is only €18 p/w per additional wage earner (maybe different authorities have different rules?). A worker renting a room in a private house in a south Dublin suburb on the other hand will pay around €100 a week, and will be subsidising the home sharing council tenant.
    The Principal Earner is the member of the household who is in receipt of the highest assessable income. The rent will be calculated at 16% of the principal earner’s weekly assessable income which exceeds €35. After the rent of the principal earner is assessed, the same calculation will be applied to the incomes of subsidiary earners (i.e. other occupants) in the household, but in this case, the rent calculation for each subsidiary earner will be capped at €18 per person.
    An employed person is, in general, assessed on their weekly wage including overtime, net of income tax, universal social charge and P.R.S.I. payments (where applicable). Occasional lump-sum bonus payments will be excluded from the calculation of rent except in cases where the amount involved is greater than one-third of basic pay.


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    #375
    TSQ
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭TSQ


    Old diesel wrote: »
    Why is it always ultra low precentage of income on rent that seems to upset people a lot more then excesively high percentage of income on rent.
    Old diesel wrote: »
    What is being paid in "big rent" is excessive when spread out over the long term.

    So those of you paying it need to target Government on that and show the level of anger on that - that you have for some someone paying 15 percent of rent.

    It's NOT the council tenants fault that the landlord paid big money for a house in 2006 and needs to salvage his/her shortfall as much as possible.

    It's NOT the council tenants fault the mortgage costs "so much".

    It costs to build and maintain any house. Council houses included. There should be some correlation between ongoing and replacement costs and rents paid. Also some correlation between rents and size of property.


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    #376
    TSQ
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭TSQ


    Old diesel wrote: »
    Why is it always ultra low precentage of income on rent that seems to upset people a lot more then excesively high percentage of income on rent.

    Actually, if more people knew just how low council rents are in general, there would be a lot more upset. Apart from those insisting on a “forever” council house and refusing HAP etc, very few people know.


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    #377
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    TSQ wrote: »
    Actually, if more people knew just how low council rents are in general, there would be a lot more upset. Apart from those insisting on a “forever” council house and refusing HAP etc, very few people know.

    Add the arrears and unpaid rents in social housing currently in the tens of million , something isn't adding up
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #378
    Cal4567
    Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Unfortunately most posters refuse to believe this as fact. The quote below is typicall of posters on this topic.




    The vast majority of people in council homes work. This is a fact. They tend to be in very low paid jobs but they get up every morning and go to work

    This comment should be put up each day to remind everyone. I don't think many realise how social housing is changing. Yes, in the mad years, it was just seen as the tenancy of the unwaged but the last decade has changed that considerably. Yes, of course, still those unemployed, but many working and in low grade employment. Yes, a good lot of immigrants as well who do this work. They don't have the family network here to have any other housing option. We need to house them. They are the backbone of the economy. Without them, the economy would grind to a halt.


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    #379
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,026 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    Who are these gaming the stats people? If there are so many do we have any evidence? And surely the numbers on the housing list would be way down if so many are at it? Doesn’t make any sense and there’s just no evidence of it outside rag media stories about it

    The numbers would drop if lots are trying to game the system? What? Anyway 5.5k offers of housing turned down since 2016.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/social-housing-refusals-ireland-4607803-May2019/


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    #380
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    The numbers would drop if lots are trying to game the system? What? Anyway 5.5k offers of housing turned down since 2016.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/social-housing-refusals-ireland-4607803-May2019/

    How is that gaming the system? Vast majority of those refusals are for valid reasons according to housing charities. And theyd know.


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    #381
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    The numbers would drop if lots are trying to game the system? What? Anyway 5.5k offers of housing turned down since 2016.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/social-housing-refusals-ireland-4607803-May2019/

    “Last month, TheJournal.ie found that local authorities also suspended 357 applicants over the same period for refusing multiple offers of social housing within a year” Good to see.


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    #382
    Cal4567
    Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    Macha wrote: »
    I'd agree with that but I think the issue is frustratingly compounded in Dublin and other Irish cities by poor planning. The failure to build good quality apartments means there is a physical limit to the amount of residential units that can be built in areas with reasonable access to amenities.

    Wage stagnation is another big part of the problem. But then again, if wages went up surely prices would also go up even more? This was an interesting article: https://www.ft.com/content/38f8c8e4-8227-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849


    This thinking is the wrong way around. We need to be asking why people can't afford to live where they want to live. I gave the example of Dublin 4 because the cost to the taxpayer of subsidising someone living there is higher than anywhere else but actually, you're right. People should be able to live everywhere. We shouldn't have ghettos in the city.


    That's a gross characterisation of people struggling to rent. Take a look at some of the people in emergency accommodation in Dublin. They are normal people who have simply been priced out of the Dublin rental market.

    Yes, I agree about other cities. My point is, we should get angry about THAT, not about having to support people who are struggling to access housing.


    I have travelled and worked across many Euroean countries. Dublin and other Irish cities and towns are 20-30 years behind in infrastucture, public transport, sensible medium density housing, than most other countries.

    We though have the same demands and expectations of everyone else. In 2019, we are quite needy when it comes to 'wants and demands'. We don't need to leave our homes anymore. Whether it's swiping left or right, netflix beamed into our living rooms, deliveries from food to almost anything else sought through an App, we have a high dependency threshold. No wonder we moan to the rooftops when it doesn't work.

    On the plus side, we are beginning to plan properly ahead. For Ireland, that's a fairly unique concept. I'm not saying the future is golden, but we are finally waking up.

    This might sound a bit glib but there are strong benefits for having a solid middle class, well educated with the confidence to mobilise and effect change. My god, it's only taken the bones of most of a century to get there.


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    #383
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    I just wanted to add that can people stop using the journal.ie as a news source. It's not news it's handpicked ,thrown together agenda driven drivel written by neck beards and semi employed crusties.

    The Us national enquirer rag would be a more credible source of news.


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    #384
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    refusals are for valid reasons according to housing charities. And theyd know.

    Lol


    Pull the other one
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #385
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Blueshoe wrote: »
    I just wanted to add that can people stop using the journal.ie as a news source. It's not news it's handpicked ,thrown together agenda driven drivel written by neck beards and semi employed crusties.

    The Us national enquirer rag would be a more credible source of news.

    Can’t tell if youre serious. You only ever rant about immigrants and homeless and dole spongers.
    Care to let us know what outlets we should follow that you so obviously trust?
    Genuine question.


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    #386
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    How is that gaming the system? Vast majority of those refusals are for valid reasons according to housing charities. And theyd know.


    Maybe they should do as your username states, and take whats given to them.


    I want a mansion in Foxrock myself, but wants and needs and means are vastly different things, and that's especially the case when you are dependent on the state to provide you with a home because you haven't the wherewithall or inclination to buy your own.


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    #387
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    STB. wrote: »
    Maybe they should do as your username states, and take whats given to them.


    I want a mansion in Foxrock myself, but wants and needs and means are vastly different things, and that's especially the case when you are dependent on the state to provide you with a home because you haven't the wherewithall or inclination to buy your own.

    Jaysis that’s patronising
    There are currently thousands and thousands of people in this state working and scrimping and saving to even get a deposit for a mortgage that a bank not might give them.

    Wherewithall...would you ever


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    #388
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,026 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    How is that gaming the system? Vast majority of those refusals are for valid reasons according to housing charities. And theyd know.

    According to the people with a vested interest in a certain thing being true, that thing is in fact true! Well I'm convinced.

    Anyway you've asked for proof, you've been given proof of people by the thousand turning down housing, and going by your reaction I doubt there's anything that would satisfy you.


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    #389
    Blueshoe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    Can’t tell if youre serious. You only ever rant about immigrants and homeless and dole spongers.
    Care to let us know what outlets we should follow that you so obviously trust?
    Genuine question.

    I don't mind immigrants. Each country needs a sensible immigration policy that only allows in a certain quota to fill skill shortages. Immigrants who want to work and contribute. Just normal people. They are welcome if there is employment and the infrastructure available. If not then no thanks.

    I feel bad for the homeless. Fallen through the cracks and need a helping hand. No problem. Peter Mcverry is someone I admire.

    Anyone can lose their job or fall on hard times. Could happen me or you. It's those who have never worked or will never work yet have the hand out for everything that I despise. They should work for their dole or get a job. No hand outs. I work, you work and most people work and pay tax to keep the country running. They should too

    We have a situation where those who have gone straight from school to work or to college and made a career for themselves are stuck in a rent trap and cannot save for a deposit while there are some in society who have never worked or contributed are given a house or subsidised rent.

    You would have to wonder what is the point?

    I don't trust any news sources. They are all agenda driven. Wether they are left or right or a government mouth piece. I only believe what I see and experience.

    That's me. If you don't agree that's fine.


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    #390
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    Jaysis that’s patronising
    There are currently thousands and thousands of people in this state working and scrimping and saving to even get a deposit for a mortgage that a bank not might give them.

    Wherewithall...would you ever

    That doesn't mean the state has to provide them with houses. Yes saving and making sacrifices is not easy. Its not meant to be. Ask the previous generations.

    I don't go out working everyday and pay my taxes so someone in pyjamas without a washer can demand what type house they wish to sit in all day watching Sky TV and Netflix.

    I'm guessing you're a student or one of the latter.

    Patronising lol. Get over yourself.


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    #391
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod Note

    Several off-topic posts deleted.

    Mod Warning

    Homelessness is always a contentious debate. With that in mind the following will apply to this thread:

    Please keep your posts on topic.
    The forum charter will be applied on a zero-tolerance basis.


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