Where are the conservatives in Ireland?

Mr_Man2121 · 16-06-2019 9:45pm

pablojml wrote: »

I'm not very familiar with the political parties of Ireland, and would like to ask where or which are the conservative parties in Ireland, not the fake ones, I mean the real conservatives who are for core family values, there are only two genders , a family is a man a woman and children, homosexuality is not a normal lifestyle and can be overcome (not hating it but not promoting it), safe borders, controlled immigration and not massive influx of ilegal immigration, parents are the main educators of children not schools, abortion means killing a baby (after 12 weeks, maybe 16) [/B] rights come from God and not men, not being driven by emotios but by logic, etc etc. Are they extinct? I am finding it really hard to find a political party with such great values. Are there any groups that anyone can join? Regards to all.

The ones in bold are the ones I agree with. I don't know how anyone could support conversion therapy. Renua are the closest to your beliefs. They have very little support.

A Shropshire Lad · 16-06-2019 9:57pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Yeah we slavishly follow international political trends. It's not like out politics has been based around a civil war divide for the last century or anything.

That might be the stupidest comment I have read today

j8wk2feszrnpao · 16-06-2019 10:34pm

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

That might be the stupidest comment I have read today

Why? It's based on the the fact that the two biggest parties remain FF and FG, neither of which have extreme policies. We may in fact be returning to FF in power, so pretty much back to the same old stuff.
Maybe it depends on your definition of "extreme", but we are nowhere near what's happened in the US or the UK.
Not sure how we "generally follow suit" either unless you have a very large number of examples. We are on a much different course than the UK, and watching some of the reversals on abortion in a number of US states, they are a different path than us on that topic.

Loafing Oaf · 17-06-2019 12:19am

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Maybe it depends on your definition of "extreme", but we are nowhere near what's happened in the US or the UK.

Indeed. The closest we have to Trumps and Farages - the likes of Ben Gilroy, Gemma O'Doherty and Harman Kelly - received derisory votes in the recent European elections.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-06-2019 9:23am

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Maybe it depends on your definition of "extreme", but we are nowhere near what's happened in the US or the UK.

Indeed. The closest we have to Trumps and Farages - the likes of Ben Gilroy, Gemma O'Doherty and Harman Kelly - received derisory votes in the recent European elections.

Peter Casey did ok on the im-a-businessman-vote-for-me ticket.

Brian? · 17-06-2019 10:31am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

That's not true - you may well harm other people in the same vehicle if you go flying round after a collision. In particular, unrestrained rear seat passengers will go flying head-to-head into restrained front seat occupants.

Ok. That’s a reasonable argument for wearing seatbelts when you’re not alone. I’m not sure it has any bearing on my point though.

Brian? · 17-06-2019 10:36am

suicide_circus wrote: »

i dont mind if we agree, in fact the more agreement the better!

I am probably well left of centre but there are a few elements to recent leftist thought that i just cannot get on board with i.e. the stuff originating on US campuses which has become fashionable. A general victimology i suppose you'd call it.

i'd like to see the state under my feet rather than over my head. No gods, no masters, but i'm not sure humans can live like that.

The type of people you’re referring to are a sub section of the left, not the majority. Socialism is concerned primarily with economic theory and not identity politics. I’d encourage you to read some Slavoj Zizek, I don’t agree with him on a lot of things but he’s far more representative of the modern left that most people think.

The college campus screamers, what some call SJWs are just better publicised. Mainly by right wing commentators looking to paint the entire left with the same brush. Some right wing commentators have a vested interest in painting the left as a bunch of irrational loons. You never see them taking on Zizek etc though.

ancapailldorcha · 17-06-2019 10:53am

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

That might be the stupidest comment I have read today

This sort of post is unacceptable here. Please read the charter before posting again.

The Late Late Show · 17-06-2019 5:21pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Indeed. The closest we have to Trumps and Farages - the likes of Ben Gilroy, Gemma O'Doherty and Harman Kelly - received derisory votes in the recent European elections.

And let's hope it stays this way. Peter O'Loughlin is another of these types who received no support whatsoever. I cannot see why Trump is even involved in the politics he is in? A casino owner siding with Gilead? That's like a turkey voting for Christmas! And as for Farage: I cannot see how anyone could support him and what he is trying to do.

Peter Casey was the only successful enough equivalent we had here. Once I heard his negative comments, I did not give him any vote in the presidential election or would not vote for him in any election.

Eric Cartman · 17-06-2019 6:42pm

The Late Late Show wrote: »

And let's hope it stays this way. Peter O'Loughlin is another of these types who received no support whatsoever. I cannot see why Trump is even involved in the politics he is in? A casino owner siding with Gilead? That's like a turkey voting for Christmas! And as for Farage: I cannot see how anyone could support him and what he is trying to do.

Peter Casey was the only successful enough equivalent we had here. Once I heard his negative comments, I did not give him any vote in the presidential election or would not vote for him in any election.

Ben and gemma are completely off the deep end compared to trump and farage, you might not like them but ben and gemma have more in line with alex jones conspiracy theory levels of extreme racism than just plain old conservatism.

James Brown · 17-06-2019 7:30pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ben and gemma are completely off the deep end compared to trump and farage, you might not like them but ben and gemma have more in line with alex jones conspiracy theory levels of extreme racism than just plain old conservatism.

TBF Trump has his conspiracy moments not to mention borderline mental health issues unless he's only joking about half the nonsense he tweets.

The Late Late Show · 17-06-2019 7:44pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ben and gemma are completely off the deep end compared to trump and farage, you might not like them but ben and gemma have more in line with alex jones conspiracy theory levels of extreme racism than just plain old conservatism.

Gemma O'Doherty was once a respected journalist before she started dealing in conspiracy theories and the like. She said the state had a role in the situation where Veronica Guerin was killed. Enough said.

I wouldn't call her, this Gilroy person, Trump or Farage conservatives. Trump is the opposite to conservative. To a greater or lesser extent, all of these are racist and focus on narrow obsessions like immigration or in the case of this O'Doherty, 'anti-corruption'. As regards ideology, all those mentioned have absolutely nothing to offer once you get past what they are anti. Some people call 2019 America Gilead/The Handmaid's Tale but it is not because that world had a certain set of beliefs in place and was not about just knocking the opposition.

Another trend in recent year is the rise of the 'celebrity politician', someone famous for something else decides to enter politics. This worked in America for Trump and for a comedian in Ukraine. In Ireland's last 2 presidential elections, Dragon's Den businessmen ran for the presidency and in both cases, came second. Others ranging from Gemma O'Doherty to George Lee and Eddie Hobbs are having a go at politics too. The problem here is many of these are ill suited to politics and hold controversial opinions in some cases.

The media's constant desire to feature the controversial puts such people in the public eye. Remember Bill Cullen and he saying people should work for nothing? Remember Katie Hopkins. She found fame through The Apprentice. The problem here is if trashy reality TV gives us these trashy individuals and they go for politics, then we get trashy politicians with way out conspiracy theories. Sadly, people vote for these type of clowns because they are 'well known'.

These reality TV type politicians also tend to jump on whatever bandwagon they can. Take Peter Casey for example: having failed to differentiate himself from the 2 other 'dragons' in the race, he takes advantage of a traveller related dispute and hones in on the large anti-traveller sentiment out there and comes second. Much like entrepreneurs try and sell their ideas to Casey on Dragon's Den, Casey sells himself to a particular audience but if you peel away all his negative views, there is nothing really there.

Eric Cartman · 17-06-2019 7:58pm

The Late Late Show wrote: »

Gemma O'Doherty was once a respected journalist before she started dealing in conspiracy theories and the like. She said the state had a role in the situation where Veronica Guerin was killed. Enough said.

I used to date a girl who thought the indo did it to sell papers (didn't last long after that one came out) . There is some serious amount of people in this country who believe in guerin conspiracies and willingly think gilligan was framed.

The Late Late Show · 19-06-2019 10:50pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I used to date a girl who thought the indo did it to sell papers (didn't last long after that one came out) . There is some serious amount of people in this country who believe in guerin conspiracies and willingly think gilligan was framed.

Yes, and I remember an attempt at having Gilligan on a chatshow but then the idea was dropped. If it went ahead, these things would be revived once again.

Gemma O'Doherty was once highly regarded as a serious journalist but since she went political, has resorted to believing in and furthering wild conspiracy theories any trained journalist like her would know to be fake.

Hotblack Desiato · 20-06-2019 12:05pm

The idiotic conspiracy theories are one thing.

The blatant racism, homophobia and transphobia are far worse than any silly talk about flouride or chemtrails.

RobertKK · 20-06-2019 1:53pm

The problem with labels like conservative and liberal is this, people may have liberal views on some issues and conservative views on other issues.
The media in this country in general is very much on the liberal side.

I do think in time, maybe in many years I don't know how long, there will be a swing back to more conservatism. It could be argued the country went from extreme conservatism and we are heading to or are in a period of extreme liberalism - and this will lead to a swing back in time.
The problem we have is getting the balance right. I think we need a bit of conservatism and a bit of liberalism to have it right.

mcmoustache · 20-06-2019 1:56pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

TBF Trump has his conspiracy moments not to mention borderline mental health issues unless he's only joking about half the nonsense he tweets.

I guess it's a question of scale. Whatever about Trump's conspiratorial tendencies, I don't think they're anywhere near the batshíttery of Doherty and Gilroy.

James Brown · 20-06-2019 2:04pm

RobertKK wrote: »

The problem with labels like conservative and liberal is this, people may have liberal views on some issues and conservative views on other issues.
The media in this country in general is very much on the liberal side.

I do think in time, maybe in many years I don't know how long, there will be a swing back to more conservatism. It could be argued the country went from extreme conservatism and we are heading to or are in a period of extreme liberalism - and this will lead to a swing back in time.
The problem we have is getting the balance right. I think we need a bit of conservatism and a bit of liberalism to have it right.

I think the idea that the media is very much on the liberal side is a right wing con myself. The Indo sang from O'Brien's hymn sheet and O'Reilly's before him. Hardly two FARC rebels. News items were geared with a bias towards business and political interests.
The Irish Times seems to back the status quo, above which party is actually in IMO.
RTE might be seen as a little left leaning in comparison but then look at Gaybo refusing to sit with Gerry Adams on the flagship talk show or Brian Dobson calling protesters 'idiots'.
Calling much of the media liberal is a gimmick like 'fake news' it helps people dodge being held to account. It's no accident Trump wants everyone to dismiss any organisation that's critical of him. Borne from that was the whole snowflake, libtard, media conspiracy shyte we have to deal with now on a daily basis.
News outlets always had an underlying bias.

The Late Late Show · 20-06-2019 2:17pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The idiotic conspiracy theories are one thing.

The blatant racism, homophobia and transphobia are far worse than any silly talk about flouride or chemtrails.

When you blend conspiracy theories with racism, misogyny, homophobia, sectarianism and so forth and then manage to get cultish following behind 'the cause', then the problems arise. Every factual and fictional cultish state from the Third Reich to the Republic of Gilead (The Handmaid's Tale) are 100% based on that.

The Late Late Show · 20-06-2019 2:23pm

mcmoustache wrote: »

I guess it's a question of scale. Whatever about Trump's conspiratorial tendencies, I don't think they're anywhere near the batshíttery of Doherty and Gilroy.

Gilroy was hardly any surprise. He has been spouting conspiracy theories with absolutely no foundation for years while setting up and helping fringe parties with equally batty individuals in them. But Doherty was more of a surprise to many. But I can see where she gets off: she can give the fringe conspiracists a convincing journo flavour and spin their lies better.

hill16bhoy · 20-06-2019 2:44pm

RobertKK wrote: »

The problem with labels like conservative and liberal is this, people may have liberal views on some issues and conservative views on other issues.
The media in this country in general is very much on the liberal side.

I do think in time, maybe in many years I don't know how long, there will be a swing back to more conservatism. It could be argued the country went from extreme conservatism and we are heading to or are in a period of extreme liberalism - and this will lead to a swing back in time.
The problem we have is getting the balance right. I think we need a bit of conservatism and a bit of liberalism to have it right.

What is "extreme liberalism"?

What do you see Ireland "swinging back to"?

Banning abortion?

Banning divorce?

Outlawing same sex marriage?

Re-introducing the marriage bar?

More cases like Majella Moynihan?

PopePalpatine · 20-06-2019 3:15pm

hill16bhoy wrote: »

RobertKK wrote: »

The problem with labels like conservative and liberal is this, people may have liberal views on some issues and conservative views on other issues.
The media in this country in general is very much on the liberal side.

I do think in time, maybe in many years I don't know how long, there will be a swing back to more conservatism. It could be argued the country went from extreme conservatism and we are heading to or are in a period of extreme liberalism - and this will lead to a swing back in time.
The problem we have is getting the balance right. I think we need a bit of conservatism and a bit of liberalism to have it right.

What is "extreme liberalism"?

What do you see Ireland "swinging back to"?

Banning abortion?

Banning divorce?

Outlawing same sex marriage?

Re-introducing the marriage bar?

More cases like Majella Moynihan?

IME no-one expressing the hope expectation that there'll be a reversal of perceived liberal/progressive/leftist excess ever expands on it.

hill16bhoy · 20-06-2019 3:24pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

IME no-one expressing the hope expectation that there'll be a reversal of perceived liberal/progressive/leftist excess ever expands on it.

Of course they don't, because there's nothing remotely extreme about treating other people with respect and dignity based on who they are, and everything extreme about trying to deny other people that.

And it's always other people whose rights are up for debate, never the person making the remarks themselves.

friendlyfun · 20-06-2019 3:50pm

We're not really conservative in the way American conservatives are.

I think most people in Ireland accept the welfare state, and don't liken it to socialism or communism ðŸ™„ we're also not big fans of military expansionism or adventurism.

Parties here right of Fine Gael have failed to pick up votes, Identity Ireland, Renua, and its largely because Irish people generally don't really have the appetite for sort of politics. Renua would be more like the US republican party yet they haven't a single representative.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 20-06-2019 4:24pm

RobertKK wrote: »

The problem with labels like conservative and liberal is this, people may have liberal views on some issues and conservative views on other issues.
The media in this country in general is very much on the liberal side.

I do think in time, maybe in many years I don't know how long, there will be a swing back to more conservatism. It could be argued the country went from extreme conservatism and we are heading to or are in a period of extreme liberalism - and this will lead to a swing back in time.
The problem we have is getting the balance right. I think we need a bit of conservatism and a bit of liberalism to have it right.

We're not extreme liberalism and we never will be. There are no extreme liberal parties in Ireland that command anywhere near a strong enough following, and baring an apocalypse I don't see any scenraio whereby they ever will have.

While we are socially very liberal, I'd argue economically we're still certainly right of center.

Brian? · 20-06-2019 5:43pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We're not extreme liberalism and we never will be. There are no extreme liberal parties in Ireland that command anywhere near a strong enough following, and baring an apocalypse I don't see any scenraio whereby they ever will have.

While we are socially very liberal, I'd argue economically we're still certainly right of center.

Isn't the term "extreme liberal" an oxymoron? I would say liberalism is far too centerist to ever be extreme in any way.

I'm sure if you're an extreme conservative, particularly of the religious type, you'd see same sex marriage and abortion rights as an extreme position. When they aren't, they were supported by a 2/3 majority.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 20-06-2019 6:07pm

Brian? wrote: »

Isn't the term "extreme liberal" an oxymoron? I would say liberalism is far too centerist to ever be extreme in any way.

Not if you take liberal as being a noun. Anarchists would be extreme(ly?) liberal.

I'm sure if you're an extreme conservative, particularly of the religious type, you'd see same sex marriage and abortion rights as an extreme position. When they aren't, they were supported by a 2/3 majority.

Well, extreme doesn't necessarily popular. The Nazis were popular in Germany in the 30s. Some extreme Islamic states exist today.

The Late Late Show · 21-06-2019 12:04am

friendlyfun wrote: »

We're not really conservative in the way American conservatives are.

I think most people in Ireland accept the welfare state, and don't liken it to socialism or communism &#55357;&#56900; we're also not big fans of military expansionism or adventurism.

Parties here right of Fine Gael have failed to pick up votes, Identity Ireland, Renua, and its largely because Irish people generally don't really have the appetite for sort of politics. Renua would be more like the US republican party yet they haven't a single representative.

Ireland has normally been a Centre Left to Centre Right country and has rejected extremes. Parties like Identity Gilead Ireland and Direct Dictatorship Democracy are the sort of hypocrites from the far right we do not need in this country. Renua is more moderate but has nothing to offer apart from being more 'pro-life' than Fine Gael.

RobertKK · 21-06-2019 12:29am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We're not extreme liberalism and we never will be. There are no extreme liberal parties in Ireland that command anywhere near a strong enough following, and baring an apocalypse I don't see any scenraio whereby they ever will have.

While we are socially very liberal, I'd argue economically we're still certainly right of center.

Not yet, we were extreme conservatism, but the gradual move to more and more liberal views will take it to the extreme.
I know this won't go down well, but young boys wearing girls clothes to school was being tweeted by our health minister as something great, a man who is doing a questionable job and doesn't tweet about all his own failings as minister for health.
Children bully other children, and all this would lead to is bullying but I see a lot of people thinking young boys going to school in girls clothing as something great. It would not work out good, and a parent who dresses their young boy up as a girl is just asking for another child to abuse their child.
We all remember going to school and being a child and we all remember that fitting in and not sticking out lead to an easier experience.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 21-06-2019 12:41am

RobertKK wrote: »

Not yet, we were extreme conservatism, but the gradual move to more and more liberal views will take it to the extreme.
I know this won't go down well, but young boys wearing girls clothes to school was being tweeted by our health minister as something great, a man who is doing a questionable job and doesn't tweet about all his own failings as minister for health.
Children bully other children, and all this would lead to is bullying but I see a lot of people thinking young boys going to school in girls clothing as something great. It would not work out good, and a parent who dresses their young boy up as a girl is just asking for another child to abuse their child.
We all remember going to school and being a child and we all remember that fitting in and not sticking out lead to an easier experience.

Not really sure I agree with your definition of "extreme".

Extreme conservatism is Nazi Germany and Islamic Shiria states; and equality is not extreme liberalism.

Where are the conservatives in Ireland?

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